The problem with Blinking

[RNightstalker]

A game I used to run (that was inherited from another DM) had all the characters with persisted greater blink spells, and it drove me nuts. However, after going back and re-reading the spell, I noticed that I missed the part where sight and sound on the Material Plane is limited to 60 feet. Has anyone else missed that part, and have others used a lot of long range attacks to counter? As a side note, I've essentially banned the Persistent Spell feat from my table due to balance issues like that.

[Zanos]

The spell reprints the rules for ethereal creatures, which include limited vision. The caster of blink is not fully Ethereal.

[Biggus]

The spell reprints the rules for ethereal creatures, which include limited vision. The caster of blink is not fully Ethereal.

Well, they are for short periods. If someone with G. Blink up decides to remain ethereal for a few seconds, during that time their vision is limited to 60ft. But normally they're blinking back and forth "very quickly and at random", so would be able to see creatures further than that just fine.

[Anthrowhale]

It is kinds of ironic that an ethereal creature can be under attack via force effects or transdimensional spells from a creature that can see it in the material plane with See Invisible but which it cannot see due to sight distance limits in the ethereal plane. The whole "sneak up on things through the ethereal plane" strategy really falls apart with a prepared opponent.

[Fizban]

Whenever you're not ethereal, you're not limited to 60'. Blink basically gives you the best of both worlds, with the caveat that there's some randomness, and then of course Greater Blink removes the randomness. Blink is already huge, and Greater Blink is busted.

Consider that the Ghostform spell was originally designed at 5th level in Tome and Blood with a full writeup of their reasoning. Ghostform is kicked back to 8th level in SpC, yet Greater Blink, which meets all the same criteria and is actually better than Ghostform, was left at 5th level. A perfect example of why SpC isn't any more perfect than any other published material.

[RNightstalker]

Consider that the Ghostform spell was originally designed at 5th level in Tome and Blood with a full writeup of their reasoning. Ghostform is kicked back to 8th level in SpC, yet Greater Blink, which meets all the same criteria and is actually better than Ghostform, was left at 5th level. A perfect example of why SpC isn't any more perfect than any other published material.

Do you think that the regular Blink spell comes online too early at 3rd level?

[Darg]

There are other issues with blinking too like not being able to communicate when everyone is under the randomness of the spell. I too have had the problem and just decided to enforce the incomprehensibility of communication. I also never mentioned Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond. Reasonable players are so nice to have because they understand that to have fun they can't just sit down and build a house in the middle of a forest while in the middle of an adventure.


Do you think that the regular Blink spell comes online too early at 3rd level?

I don't think so. It's a 5 round duration and a standard action. The randomness of the spell is it's strength and weakness. Sure enemies have 50% chance to whiff on you, but you also have a 20% chance to whiff yourself. Something that can see invisible and/or ethereal creatures evens or gains the advantage over the playing field. As I mentioned, the randomness really hampers communication for the duration.

[Fizban]

Do you think that the regular Blink spell comes online too early at 3rd level?
Yes. The big problem is what's mentioned in that breakdown of them designing the original Ghostform spell: bypassing multiple barriers. Because-


I don't think so. It's a 5 round duration and a standard action. The randomness of the spell is it's strength and weakness. Sure enemies have 50% chance to whiff on you, but you also have a 20% chance to whiff yourself. Something that can see invisible and/or ethereal creatures evens or gains the advantage over the playing field. As I mentioned, the randomness really hampers communication for the duration.
All that combat stuff, the 50% miss chance which is exactly equal to a different 3rd level spell which you did mention, on top of taking 1/2 damage from area spells and on top of counting as invisible for attacks which you didn't mention? (And See Invis does nothing but negate the invis benefit unless you have a [Force] or Abjuration spell)

That's not even the reason I would cast it. It lets you walk through walls. Multiple walls. And if you don't like what's on the other side, you can turn around and walk back. Unless the DM deliberately makes all walls a minimum full 5', more like 15' thick (only "unworked stone 'walls'" default to even 5'), you can just step through.

Dimension Door is 4th level spell, with a longer range sure- but you have to guess coordinates or use another 3rd level spell to target it, and when you land you can't act until your next turn, and even once you can act again you need to cast it again to go anywhere else.

The only things that could even remotely justify Blink are Stone Shape via the Cleric list, and Gaseous Form. One is from a different class and only works on unworked stone, the other leaves you massively vulnerable and incapable of attack instead of far harder to kill and mildly inconvenienced. I'd virtually guarantee it's 3rd level only because it's a legacy spell that was already 3rd level, not based on any serious testing of its capabilities.

Blink is better than or at best equal at circumventing and moving around the environment than a spell of higher level, and also gives combat buffs equal to spells of the same and higher level, and a fully unique combat buff, and scouting ability near equal to its level, and the only penalty is that you suffer a 20% miss chance. It ought to be at least 4th, probably 5th if you're seriously considering the versatility. And hey, 5th level is where the designers in Tome and Blood put Ghostform.


The problem with Blink is not a potential discrepancy in sight between planes. The problem with Blink is that it's like five different 3rd-4th level spells in one 3rd level spell.

[Darg]

Ok, you count as invisible for attacks. So? You get an easier time hitting with spell attacks at the cost of guaranteed 20% miss chance. You can get the same advantage using a 2nd level spell that can be cast minutes before combat, not after it started or literal moments prior. It won't help much if you are trying to normally hit a low dex heavily armored character.

It's a 3rd level spell, of course it's going to be strong at its strengths. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its own weaknesses. A second level spell counters the benefits completely. Not to mention that it's competing with greater invisibility which is ultimately superior if it were a 4th or higher level spell. Yes, you can travel through walls, but the rest of your party can't. Not to mention you aren't always in man made above ground structures where walls are regularly less than 5 feet thick. You can't reliably communicate while the spell lasts. Force effects work on you just fine and you move at 3/4 speed.

I'd say displacement and invisibility sphere are quite competitive for the spell slot. Displacement might not be able to negate spells cast against you or make you considered invisible or allow you to move through walls, but it isn't as easily negated, doesn't give you a miss chance, and you can still move at normal speed. Invisibility sphere's benefits are quite obvious.

Yes blink is versatile; however it suffers for that versatility.

[Zanos]

That's not even the reason I would cast it. It lets you walk through walls. Multiple walls. And if you don't like what's on the other side, you can turn around and walk back. Unless the DM deliberately makes all walls a minimum full 5', more like 15' thick (only "unworked stone 'walls'" default to even 5'), you can just step through.
It's only useful in this way if you know that there is something on the other side of the 'wall'(not always the case underground), and if you know that the things on the other side of the wall aren't going to roll initiative and club you to death. You aren't aware of them and they aren't aware of you, so you don't get a surprise round. If you can see whats on the other side of the wall then the utility of walking through walls to begin with is lessened. Personally I'm not a big fan of my probably low AC, low hp wizard walking through walls and finding potentially anything, including traps or monsters. I admit walking through walls is very useful for...combat, so your wizard can walk through a wall and be unreachable by whatever is trying to pin him down.

Ghostform has two major advantages over Greater Blink, it makes you completely immune to non-magical attacks, including natural weapons, and adds charisma to AC, although it drops natural armor. The real problem with the original printing though is that the duration was 1 min/level.

[Fizban]

Ok, you count as invisible for attacks. So?
That's a minimum +2 before counting the removal of dex, when the only defense most things have against touch spells if they're not small is dex. It's also an old rogue combo, particularly with a reading of the Pierce Magical Concealment feat letting you ignore the problem while using a Ring of Blinking- the main restriction is in the spell technically being personal only, before magic items that let you ignore that.


You get an easier time hitting with spell attacks at the cost of guaranteed 20% miss chance. You can get the same advantage using a 2nd level spell that can be cast minutes before combat, not after it started or literal moments prior. It won't help much if you are trying to normally hit a low dex heavily armored character.
For one attack. And yeah, obviously things that are bad against touch attacks remain bad against touch attacks, that has nothing to do with this.


It's a 3rd level spell, of course it's going to be strong at its strengths. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its own weaknesses. A second level spell counters the benefits completely. Not to mention that it's competing with greater invisibility which is ultimately superior if it were a 4th or higher level spell. Yes, you can travel through walls, but the rest of your party can't. Not to mention you aren't always in man made above ground structures where walls are regularly less than 5 feet thick. You can't reliably communicate while the spell lasts. Force effects work on you just fine and you move at 3/4 speed.
So the specific counters are "enemy has See Invisibilty," and "enemy has Force spells." How many monsters are arcane casters, with those both standard? How many published modules lack a significant use of walls less than 5' thick? And this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone making a fuss over "communication."

It doesn't have to be perfect to be doing more things better than it should, and "the DM has to specifically counter this spell to keep it at 3rd level" is not an argument for it being 3rd level.


It's only useful in this way if you know that there is something on the other side of the 'wall'(not always the case underground),
Again, I find this sudden apparent proliferation of adventures focusing on natural caves without so much as a door you'd want to peep through suspicious.


and if you know that the things on the other side of the wall aren't going to roll initiative and club you to death. You aren't aware of them and they aren't aware of you, so you don't get a surprise round. If you can see whats on the other side of the wall then the utility of walking through walls to begin with is lessened. Personally I'm not a big fan of my probably low AC, low hp wizard walking through walls and finding potentially anything, including traps or monsters.
Nice to see someone else acknowledging initiative for once- but there enough arguments and tables that would give you a "surprise round" for suddenly appearing (and the main reason I'd expect someone to pop through would be to see what they're already heard on the other side) that I would expect the common response to be a lot less unfavorable. Even with a strict reading and less starting info, it's still a huge option. Too many options and functions added to an already 3rd level base effect with insufficient drawbacks to account for them, I say.


I admit walking through walls is very useful for...combat, so your wizard can walk through a wall and be unreachable by whatever is trying to pin him down.

Ghostform has two major advantages over Greater Blink, it makes you completely immune to non-magical attacks, including natural weapons, and adds charisma to AC, although it drops natural armor. The real problem with the original printing though is that the duration was 1 min/level.
Yup, haven't even started on combos such as creating your own walls (such as with the Cleric's Stone Shape), or the instant and automatic escape of grapples and most BFCs. Also the rare acknowledgement that natural weapons are not magic weapons, comparing Ghostform to Stoneskin also a good justification for it being at least 5th. I find the biggest difference is that Ghostform lets you lurk and take cover in the walls/floor, but it also is incapable of letting you go through walls bigger than yourself. You also lose natural armor which may or may not affect your enhancement, retain a 50% miss chance with weapons, and a 50% miss chance for spells is less reliable than 1/2 area and also 50% for targeted. Meanwhile Greater Blink also gives you a readied action option, and lets you move through barriers of any size as long as you don't end your movement within.

Oh, and I forgot another bit of my ire- that, as evidenced by the domain level on Greater Blink still being 8th, the spell was originally 8th. They kicked Ghostform back while also pulling Greater Blink down, because consistency is for suckers (and failed to fix the domain because they didn't bother fixing any of them- have you noticed how much I've grown to hate SpC yet?).



Obviously while I find Blink does too many things too well to be 3rd, the fact that it doesn't do those perfectly means it would be a hard sell at 5th, even if there's a reasonable argument. 4th would probably be enough (putting it on par with Dimension Door of course, and one of the first big multi-functions with Shadow Conjuration), and for whatever reason my notes have Greater Blink at 7th at the moment with no note regarding Ghostform (though at 8th I think it ought to be its original 1 min/level- high level defenses are supposed to be strong)- which I think was mostly because I wanted to keep GB available at 6th on the Bard list.

Though really, a spell whose main feature is adding even more random chaos whilst also doing a bunch of possible things, isn't a great design to begin with. What's the phrase, inconvenience is not balance? Neither is chaos. Blink would be better off removed, maybe replaced with a new spell or two for doing the things that Ghostform doesn't (like say, a 3rd level short range personal teleport with no line of sight, between Dimension Hop and Dimension Door, or a 1 round ethereal, an arcane version of the Inconstant Location power, etc). The most interesting thing about Blink is that there are some legacy creatures which have a whole thing about being ethereal sometimes and not sometimes, so Blink has special (still chaotic) interactions with them.