Quiver of Anariel [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Drelua

2022-10-19, 12:27 AM

Pretty sure that there is a magic weapon called the Greatsword Bow (or Great Swordbow). You might be able to wiggle in with that.

I looked at that, it does say that it can be upgraded but you have to pay twice and any upgrades have to be applicable to the sword and the bow.

I'm confused under this interpretation. The table for weapons in the PHB shows bows as piercing weapons. Keen only says it has to be a piercing or slashing weapon. Is it because it's not in the generation table?

I thought bows couldn't be keen, wasn't sure why so I looked around a bit. It's conspicuously absent in a couple tables, but it doesn't say it can't apply to a ranged weapon. I'd definitely allow a keen bow, I don't see any reason not to. It's not like it's especially good, ranged weapons don't generally benefit from crits more than melee weapons. Less, if anything, since most of them don't crit on anything but a 20 or have a great multiplier.

Saintheart

2022-10-19, 12:32 AM

There's a couple of sources for the proposition that the ammo has to have its own keen properties.

First one being the Keen Edge spell, which applies to 1 weapon or up to 50 projectiles.

This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.)

Deepwood Sniper's Keen Arrows (Ex) abilities applies only to the projectiles.

Steelwing feathers can be used as fletching for crossbow bolts and the bolts are explicitly treated as keen, not the weapon they're fired from.

The argument's similar as with the problem with kaorti resin weapons: by RAW you can make a bow out of kaorti resin since it does piercing damage, but it'd take a generous DM to conclude the bow's material property translates to the arrows. Keen is similar, you need a DM to admit it passes to the ammo as well, at least technically ... though doing this as well as imposing 3.5 rules on critical threat range stacking is just hosing ranged combatants even more, and I'm of the Sean K. Reynolds school that says light weapons should be able to stack keen and Improved Critical just to keep up with two-handers.

Khedrac

2022-10-19, 02:11 AM

There's a couple of sources for the proposition that the ammo has to have its own keen properties.

First one being the Keen Edge spell, which applies to 1 weapon or up to 50 projectiles.

This doesn't even begin to be evidence that you cannot have the effect on a bow when one considers that the spell magic weapon, greater has the same wording.
The text about casting on ammunition is probably there to allow one casting's worth of ammo to be divided between multiple users, e.g. 10 arrows per archer for 5 archers.

schreier

2022-10-19, 08:41 AM

Generally, I've seen a lot of threads, and they come down to: it is listed as piercing so should qualify, but isn't on the table and they discuss how ammo can be keen so the bow shouldn't be. Also, since it does not say that it gives the ability to the arrows (unlike the other abilities that say that), it can't be keen.

I don't think it's game breaking either way honestly, but was looking at the quiver for multiple reasons ... 1 - it sidesteps the issue since ammo can clearly have the enchantment, and 2- it can be cheaper than throwing another enchantment on the splitting seeking enfeebling bow ...

Also, if you can do the unlimited keen, you could conceivably do other enchantments as well.

It would be so much easier to reverse engineer Hank's bow to get the energy cost so you don't have to worry about ammo, but the effects are too unique (higher damage, power attack, force .. and unlimited damage all for 22k). I've always wanted the effect on a crossbow ... would be awesome to have the "trigger" touch be an activation like pulled back, or maybe a pump action ;)

How would you go about adding splitting and seeking to that?

bean illus

2022-10-19, 12:12 PM

There's a couple of sources for the proposition that the ammo has to have its own keen properties.

First one being the Keen Edge spell, which applies to 1 weapon or up to 50 projectiles.

Deepwood Sniper's Keen Arrows (Ex) abilities applies only to the projectiles.

<snip> and I'm of the Sean K. Reynolds school that says light weapons should be able to stack keen and Improved Critical just to keep up with two-handers.

I've read Sean Reynolds article on that, and it's based well on the damage output of two-handers. It's good.

But i also understand the reason for so many limits on archers. Guaranteed ranged crits multiple times per round, with riders and effects from every type of ammo, all from an unreachable distance, is something that should have difficult limits.

I know, Saintheart, that you have a build with 10 shots? And you have Targeteer builds with multiple crits? I think that you don't even use much spellcasting in those builds. I think 9th level casting is possible while getting most of an optimized archer.

I think hundreds of points of customized damage at multiple targets is possible, while having huge initiative and defense. Archers are far from the most overpowered, but that's good. Being both overpowered and untouchable is bad for the game.

I also lean to the Sean K Reynolds article, but see little need for much more.

Darg

2022-10-19, 01:06 PM

I'm of the school of removing the special text from power attack. Working well so far.

Drelua

2022-10-19, 02:46 PM

Generally, I've seen a lot of threads, and they come down to: it is listed as piercing so should qualify, but isn't on the table and they discuss how ammo can be keen so the bow shouldn't be. Also, since it does not say that it gives the ability to the arrows (unlike the other abilities that say that), it can't be keen.

I don't think it's game breaking either way honestly, but was looking at the quiver for multiple reasons ... 1 - it sidesteps the issue since ammo can clearly have the enchantment, and 2- it can be cheaper than throwing another enchantment on the splitting seeking enfeebling bow ...

The price difference between a +9 and +10 weapon is 38k. So if the quiver's 44k, it can't be cheaper unless we're talking about an epic weapon.

I also don't see why the arrows need to be keen, not the bow, for it to work. If I shoot someone with a bow and crit, I crit them with the bow. Arrows don't have a listed crit multiplier, bows have the x3, so if I'm using the bows multiplier, why would I not be using its threat range?

schreier

2022-10-19, 04:55 PM

44k is the price for keen unlimited arrows, not just keen. Unlimited arrows by themselves are 18k, so the Delta is 26k.

And I agree conceptually about a bow possibly working with keen (it is "piercing" but there is a good amount of circumstantial evidence indicating that it cannot be keen, and no direct evidence showing it can other than the phrasing that it works on slashing and piercing weapons).

It is not listed in the table of "Ranged Weapon Special Abilities"
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

Under the magic weapon abilities listed under "Ranged" they address the issue in almost every case. I listed them all below ... in all but 1 case it was addressed. The exception was Speed, which makes sense since it is just making an extra attack and you couldn't add that to ammunition anyways.

The only real argument there I see is Brilliant Energy specifically addresses it in a way that would make sense for Keen (throwing, melee and ammunition).

Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. (or some almost identical phrasing)
Bane
Flaming
Frost
Merciful
Shock
Thundering
Anarchic
Axiomatic
Flaming Burst
Holy
Shocking Burst
Unholy

This property can only be placed on a ranged weapon (or some almost identical phrasing)
Distance
Seeking

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown.
Returning

Brilliant Energy:
This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

The ranged aspect is not addressed:
Speed

Keen says: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.) This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

I honestly believe RAW allows it, RAI does not ... but I see no reason why it should not be allowed.

Drelua

2022-10-19, 07:28 PM

44k is the price for keen unlimited arrows, not just keen. Unlimited arrows by themselves are 18k, so the Delta is 26k.

Ah, fair enough. If that's your only option for unlimited arrows and you really don't want to track them (which I get, the bookkeeping can be annoying) then might as well. Getting an extra property on your bow might even be worth 44k if it's already +10 and you have money to spare. I might also ask a GM if I can make a modified glove of endless javelins or gauntlet of infinite blades that makes arrows, since those are way cheaper and have extra abilities, like producing bane weapons.

I honestly believe RAW allows it, RAI does not ... but I see no reason why it should not be allowed.

I agree with this completely, it's missing from a few charts but that's not really an explicit rule that it can't be applied, and I can't see it being OP in any way. I'd also allow keen edge to be cast on a bow, it says "if applied to arrows or crossbow bolts..." but it doesn't say you can't target a bow, and magic weapon has similar language. They tell you what happens if you target ammo, but that doesn't mean you can't target a bow.

bean illus

2022-10-19, 10:45 PM

I also don't see why the arrows need to be keen, not the bow, for it to work. If I shoot someone with a bow and crit, I crit them with the bow. Arrows don't have a listed crit multiplier, bows have the x3, so if I'm using the bows multiplier, why would I not be using its threat range?

The aim, and power of bow, combine for critical precision. A keen weapon has the spell Keen Edge. "Keen edge" by definition needs an edge, and so can only apply to the ammo.

44k is
<snip>

I honestly believe RAW allows it, RAI does not ... but I see no reason why it should not be allowed.

Well, if you overlook the fact that neither the word keen nor edge applies to describing a bow, then you might be right.

schreier

2022-10-19, 10:55 PM

The aim, and power of bow, combine for critical precision. A keen weapon has the spell Keen Edge. "Keen edge" by definition needs an edge, and so can only apply to the ammo.

Well, if you overlook the fact that neither the word keen nor edge applies to describing a bow, then you might be right.

If you were to allow it, it would be clearly as though it conveyed the keen aspect onto the ammunition (like most of the other bonuses listed) ... holy / axiomatic / flaming - the bow itself isn't doing the damage, the ammo is. The scabbard of keen edges makes a weapon stored inside it keen 3x per day ...

RAW requires slashing or piercing weapon, and the bows are all listed as piercing. Obviously the piercing is not hitting someone with the bow, but with the arrows.

Drelua

2022-10-20, 12:34 AM

The aim, and power of bow, combine for critical precision. A keen weapon has the spell Keen Edge. "Keen edge" by definition needs an edge, and so can only apply to the ammo.

The name of the spell required to create the item is not rules text. This is like saying magic fang can only apply to a bite attack, not slam, gores, claws or anything else, because it says "fang" and only bite attacks use fangs. And even if that were true, restrictions on a spell don't automatically all apply to items that require that spell.

Well, if you overlook the fact that neither the word keen nor edge applies to describing a bow, then you might be right.

Arrows don't have an edge either, they have a point, and yet keen edge specifically says it can be cast on them.

Saintheart

2022-10-20, 01:44 AM

I've read Sean Reynolds article on that, and it's based well on the damage output of two-handers. It's good.

But i also understand the reason for so many limits on archers. Guaranteed ranged crits multiple times per round, with riders and effects from every type of ammo, all from an unreachable distance, is something that should have difficult limits.

I know, Saintheart, that you have a build with 10 shots? And you have Targeteer builds with multiple crits? I think that you don't even use much spellcasting in those builds.

It's over here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ex0HMTfZFb8Ra8-Js-sTioUACEx1rGr3HvUXJI_MYpM/edit#). And that doesn't have 10 shots, it has is 7+ attacks which are sacrificed to extend the critical threat range for one shot. Targetteer's Sniper feature only allows the extended range to apply to that first shot, not to everything in the volley. And that build is shut down by Wind Wall, like any ranged archery build. Hank's Energy Bow would address that problem, but the damage output would drop - because the build's damage depends in heavy regard on kaorti resin on the arrowheads. It doesn't keep up, I think, with melee damage at high levels, and certainly not with spellcasters.

bean illus

2022-10-20, 06:49 AM

The scabbard of keen edges makes a weapon stored inside it keen 3x per day ...

Yes, the scabbard can make the edge keen. I'm not against a quiver of keen.

Arrows don't have an edge either, they have a point, and yet keen edge specifically says it can be cast on them.

Many arrows have edge, but points can also be sharpened.

It's over here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ex0HMTfZFb8Ra8-Js-sTioUACEx1rGr3HvUXJI_MYpM/edit#). And that doesn't have 10 shots, it has is 7+ attacks which are sacrificed to extend the critical threat range for one shot.

Isn't the Mariachi also yours? I thought that build has 10 shots.

Saintheart

2022-10-20, 08:28 AM

Isn't the Mariachi also yours? I thought that build has 10 shots.

Nah, that's gruftzwerg's. Over here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609902-El-Mariachi-dual-double-handcrossbow-action&highlight=Mariachi).

Drelua

2022-10-20, 02:32 PM

Many arrows have edge, but points can also be sharpened.

The name of the spell is still not a rule on what it can apply to. The rules on how a spell works still do not apply to weapon enchantments that require the spell. Merciful requires cure light wounds, despite not healing any damage, does that mean it has the opposite effect on undead? A sword of subtlety requires blur, blur doesn't work if they can't see you, does that mean you don't get the attack and damage bonus on sneak attacks against people that can't see you? No, because it is a crafting prerequisite, nothing more.

bean illus

2022-10-20, 03:29 PM

The name of the spell is still not a rule on what it can apply to. The rules on how a spell works still do not apply to weapon enchantments that require the spell. Merciful requires cure light wounds, despite not healing any damage, does that mean it has the opposite effect on undead? A sword of subtlety requires blur, blur doesn't work if they can't see you, does that mean you don't get the attack and damage bonus on sneak attacks against people that can't see you? No, because it is a crafting prerequisite, nothing more.

Yes.
... and no.

In dnd the exception is usually the part described. No one should assume different than the obvious unless it's stated as different than the obvious. This leaves endless chances to chant 'RAW doesn't say we can't'.

Now if you want to do 'x' at your table, then have fun. If you want to collect instances of 'RAW doesn't say we can't', then have fun. But I'm not the first person to think keen edge means keen, and edge.

Drelua

2022-10-20, 06:32 PM

Yes.
... and no.

In dnd the exception is usually the part described. No one should assume different than the obvious unless it's stated as different than the obvious. This leaves endless chances to chant 'RAW doesn't say we can't'.

The problem with this, is that what's obvious to two different people is going to be, well, different. To me, rules should be stated, not vaguely implied.

Now if you want to do 'x' at your table, then have fun. If you want to collect instances of 'RAW doesn't say we can't', then have fun. But I'm not the first person to think keen edge means keen, and edge.

Morningstar's don't have an edge, but they do bludgeoning and piercing damage, so I think you should be able to cast keen edge on them. And, again, you're talking about restrictions on the spell as if they are automatically also restrictions on the items that require them. I think I've already provided examples that show this is a really bad precedent to set.

I'm not "assuming different than the obvious," I'm assuming that the restrictions stated in the rules are the restrictions, not specific definitions of the words in the name of the spell, and that other restrictions have to be stated to be in place. Rules should always avoid being based on assumptions, because that will always lead to varying interpretations.

bean illus

2022-10-20, 07:30 PM

To me, rules should be stated, not vaguely implied.

Rules should always avoid being based on assumptions, because that will always lead to varying interpretations.

I know enough about rhetoric to know that when you have hundreds of books, each with hundreds of pages, each with scores of paragraphs, each with scores of words, there's always going to be ways to lawyer the words. Enjoy yourself. You're not alone.

If you were my DM, i would put keen on my bow.

Drelua

2022-10-20, 08:40 PM

I know enough about rhetoric to know that when you have hundreds of books, each with hundreds of pages, each with scores of paragraphs, each with scores of words, there's always going to be ways to lawyer the words. Enjoy yourself. You're not alone.

If you were my DM, i would put keen on my bow.

I'm not trying to lawyer the words, interpreting rules means looking at what the text says, and what it doesn't. A spell that's required to create an item is listed as a prerequisite. The glossary in the PHB defines a prerequisite as "a requirement that must be met before a given benefit can be gained." You're saying it's more than that, which isn't really supported by the rules text.

To be clear, I have no problem with you ruling that way, nothing you're saying sounds like any indication you'd be a bad GM, or a bad player. I just don't see how it's supported by the rules text, and don't think it's fair for you to say I'm trying to assume something other than the obvious.

And yeah, I do sound a bit like a lawyer, don't I?

bean illus

2022-10-20, 10:35 PM

A spell that's required to create an item is listed as a prerequisite.

Hell, if you were my DM, I'd not only ask for a keen bow, I'd ask if i could use CLW as the spell component for a keen bow.

Drelua

2022-10-20, 11:31 PM

Hell, if you were my DM, I'd not only ask for a keen bow, I'd ask if i could use CLW as the spell component for a keen bow.

I'm not talking about ignoring or changing anything that's written, so I don't know where this is coming from. Not that I'm opposed to changing rules whenever you have a good reason, but it is definitely not clearly written that keen edge, or keen weapons have the limitations you're saying they have. The prerequisite of keen edge is clearly written. Nowhere is it written that prereq text applies to an ability that requires it.

bean illus

2022-10-21, 08:34 AM

<snip>
but it is definitely not clearly written that keen edge, or keen weapons have the limitations you're saying they have.

Except that i don't think that's what i said. I said 'this might be one reason many folks think that keen means keen, and edge means edge, and therefore follows the common pattern of going on the arrow, not the bow. Nevertheless there's room for people to look for various interpretations of rules. Therefore people should do as they like at their tables, and have fun. I would happily play under those rules.'

Then, after I pretty much agreed with everything you said (except that i myself wouldn't), i made a joke.

Now see, that's where i went wrong, because I'm really just not funny, and frankly it it usually cost me more energy than it's worth.

Drelua

2022-10-21, 02:00 PM

Ah. I can't tell when people are joking in person, so online I have no chance. I've been on the internet enough to know that there's nothing that someone, somewhere doesn't believe. It seemed to me that you were saying it shouldn't work because of the name of the spell, and I've definitely been told much, much stranger things online.

You're good, it happens.

bean illus

2022-10-21, 05:49 PM

It seemed to me that you were saying it shouldn't work because of the name of the spell, ...

Not quite. I'm saying that perhaps this is one of those things that publishers assumed, and then forgot to detail. I'm saying if i DMed then i would say ammo, not bow.

But that's not all I'm saying. I'm also saying that varying interpretations are inherent in dnd, and I'd happily play under your interpretation.

I think that maybe what's happening is that you're focusing on one thing I'm saying, and not properly valuing the other things I'm saying.

Drelua

2022-10-21, 07:24 PM

Not quite. I'm saying that perhaps this is one of those things that publishers assumed, and then forgot to detail. I'm saying if i DMed then i would say ammo, not bow.

But that's not all I'm saying. I'm also saying that varying interpretations are inherent in dnd, and I'd happily play under your interpretation.

Agreed, leaving it off of charts for ranged weapons is enough to make me think they likely didn't intend it to be an option, but it's hard to know for sure. All leaving it off the charts really does is make it so it won't come up in randomly generated loot, which could also have been the intention. It could also be that the person writing keen edge, and the keen weapon property, intended for them to work on bows, and the person making the charts thought they didn't. I know it doesn't say keen is bestowed on the ammo, but as I said earlier, the ammo doesn't have a threat range, so I don't see that it needs to. The writers aren't necessarily always on the same page, so I usually just ignore anything based on a guess, however educated, at what the publishers probably intended. Unless it could go a couple different ways, if I have to make a call one way or the other then I'll consider what they most likely meant.

Otherwise, I follow what they wrote, unless I see a good reason to change it, but what they probably meant but didn't write is something I can never know for sure. It could also be that the person writing keen edge, and the keen weapon property, intended for them to work on bows, and the person making the charts thought they didn't. The writers aren't necessarily always on the same page. I don't think it's wrong to make an effort to follow unwritten intentions, I just personally don't think it's worth the trouble of trying to puzzle it out when there's not much to go on.

I think that maybe what's happening is that you're focusing on one thing I'm saying, and not properly valuing the other things I'm saying.

I don't know, looking back I still don't really see where you agreed with me? I kinda took 'I'd get a keen bow in your game' the wrong way. Like if someone told me they use exploding crits in their game, I would probably tell them I think that's a bad idea, and that I would dual wield kukris in their game. I've rolled quadruple crits for x16 damage in my high school DM's games, I think I still overvalue a good crit range because of that.

But anyway, I'm starting to rant a little bit. Just a misunderstanding. I never thought you were saying anything mean, so no harm done. I do find it a bit funny though that when I googled this to see if there was a faq on it, one of the first results was people making the same points in the same argument 15 years ago. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/keen-equivalent-for-bows.193107/) This has been causing confusion for decades.

Gruftzwerg

2022-10-21, 10:56 PM

The RAW cheese with ranged weapons that fire ammunition and its limits:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

The "General Rule" sole talks about enchantment bonuses & weapons with alignments.

And to remind you what an enchantment bonus is:

Enchantment Bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus)

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

Enchantment bonuses sole include the basic +X bonus and not any special weapon properties.

There maybe "Specific Exceptions" like in the case of "Splitting":

Any missile fired from a splitting weapon, or an arrow or bolt enchanted with the splitting ability, breaks into two identical missiles before striking the intended target.
...
Splitting calls out a specific exception that the enchantment can be placed on either one, the weapon or the ammunition.

"Keen" doesn't have that kind of exception:

This enchantment doubles the threat range of a weapon. For instance, if it is placed on a longsword (which has a normal threat range of 19-20), the keen longsword scores a threat on a 17-20. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be enchanted to be keen.
While you can make a "Keen Longbow +5" the "keen" part doesn't do anything for you sadly...

Welcome to the beauty of RAW...

My Conclusion:
Ranged Weapons which fire ammunition can bestow many thing on their ammunition to stack, but not everything. Still a very strong option to have compared to other weapons users.

If you want unlimited "Keen Arrows" either take the "Improved Critical" feat instead or dip into Deepwood Sniper to get "Keen Arrows"...^^
These are the sole 2 RAW legal options I'm aware of right off the bat.

Darg

2022-10-22, 12:25 AM

While you can make a "Keen Longbow +5" the "keen" part doesn't do anything for you sadly...

Welcome to the beauty of RAW...

RAW says that it's the bow that determines damage and crit range and multiplier. The weapons table in the PHB and SRD both are null in those categories for ammunition. The way Keen Edge (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm) is written implies that the doubling of the threat range can apply to bow or arrow and work just fine.

Drelua

2022-10-22, 12:37 AM

Splitting calls out a specific exception that the enchantment can be placed on either one, the weapon or the ammunition.

That's part of a sentence explaining the effects, while it's clearly saying that it works on either the bow or the arrow it's not clear to me that this explanation is necessary for any ability to apply to the arrow. Saying something is true doesn't mean it isn't true unless you say so. Ki focus, brilliant energy, and throwing saying they can only be applied to melee weapons, and seeking and distance also say ranged only, keen doesn't say either. I don't think this proves things one way or the other. There's more abilities that say it bestows on ammo than say they're melee or ranged only, but that's just because, at least in core, most abilities that apply to both.

"Keen" doesn't have that kind of exception:

While you can make a "Keen Longbow +5" the "keen" part doesn't do anything for you sadly...

Welcome to the beauty of RAW...

My Conclusion:
Ranged Weapons which fire ammunition can bestow many thing on their ammunition to stack, but not everything. Still a very strong option to have compared to other weapons users.

I don't think any of what you've shown proves that at all. Arrows don't have a listed crit range, and if used as improvised melee weapons, their description at PHB 114 specifically says they have a x2 multiplier. So I don't see why keen needs to apply to the ammunition, because you're using the bow to determine your crit range, so I think it's fair to presume you're also using the bow to determine crit range. Could that not just as easily be the reason keen doesn't say it bestows it on ammo? This is my main reason for thinking it doesn't matter if it bestows it on ammo, that you're using the bow to determine how you crit so it doesn't matter if the arrow's keen.

The only evidence I've seen that it doesn't apply is 2 charts that don't list it for random generation, but I'm not sure that qualifies as a rule that it can't be crafted by RAW. Though ghost touch, disruption, and defending don't say melee only and also don't appear on the same chart that's missing keen, so that is some evidence that they didn't intend keen bows to work, but not that there's anything explicit saying they don't, or any reason they shouldn't. It may be something they assumed, like they may have assumed disruption wouldn't work on ranged weapons because it's bludgeoning only. I'd allow a sling of disruption though.

(I really am lawyering, feeling obligated to disclose that last bit of evidence even if it hurts my case)

Edit: partially ninja'd

Gruftzwerg

2022-10-22, 05:05 AM

RAW says that it's the bow that determines damage and crit range and multiplier. The weapons table in the PHB and SRD both are null in those categories for ammunition. The way Keen Edge is written implies that the doubling of the threat range can apply to bow or arrow and work just fine.
Do we really have such a rule in text form? I'm not aware of it. IMHO this is extrapolated information from tables and not a rule by RAW and thus any interpretation relying on that belongs to the RAI category.
What we have by RAW is a table that shows some values to use for projectile weapons and its ammunition and a rule that you need ammunition for projectile based ranged weapons. Finally we have rules that some magical properties are bestowed to the ammunition from the projectile weapon (enchantment bonus and alignments).

That's part of a sentence explaining the effects, while it's clearly saying that it works on either the bow or the arrow it's not clear to me that this explanation is necessary for any ability to apply to the arrow. Saying something is true doesn't mean it isn't true unless you say so. Ki focus, brilliant energy, and throwing saying they can only be applied to melee weapons, and seeking and distance also say ranged only, keen doesn't say either. I don't think this proves things one way or the other. There's more abilities that say it bestows on ammo than say they're melee or ranged only, but that's just because, at least in core, most abilities that apply to both.
You are making assumptions by extrapolating information and comparing it with other abilities. That belongs to the land of RAI (rules as intended). But it doesn't affect RAW (rules as written). My statement is tagged as "RAW" and thus your arguments don't bother it.
As said, RAW is not a play-advice. It just the most literate interpretation under the 3.5 rules.

I don't think any of what you've shown proves that at all. Arrows don't have a listed crit range, and if used as improvised melee weapons, their description at PHB 114 specifically says they have a x2 multiplier. So I don't see why keen needs to apply to the ammunition, because you're using the bow to determine your crit range, so I think it's fair to presume you're also using the bow to determine crit range. Could that not just as easily be the reason keen doesn't say it bestows it on ammo? This is my main reason for thinking it doesn't matter if it bestows it on ammo, that you're using the bow to determine how you crit so it doesn't matter if the arrow's keen.

The only evidence I've seen that it doesn't apply is 2 charts that don't list it for random generation, but I'm not sure that qualifies as a rule that it can't be crafted by RAW. Though ghost touch, disruption, and defending don't say melee only and also don't appear on the same chart that's missing keen, so that is some evidence that they didn't intend keen bows to work, but not that there's anything explicit saying they don't, or any reason they shouldn't. It may be something they assumed, like they may have assumed disruption wouldn't work on ranged weapons because it's bludgeoning only. I'd allow a sling of disruption though.

(I really am lawyering, feeling obligated to disclose that last bit of evidence even if it hurts my case)

Edit: partially ninja'd
While I get where (both of) you are going I still don't think that this helps RAW here sadly.

If we want to rely on extrapolated info for RAI arguments, I have one too. (Note that this has nothing to do with my RAW interpretation).
Assume an Enlarged Person with a Projectile Weapon. The effect sole affects the user and this worn equipment. A projectile fired from a range weapon gets smaller due to loosing the "Enlarge Person" effect, while still profiting from the altered stats since the dmg is determined by the weapon it fires (which is still "enlarged").
RAI (and as play advice) I totally agree with you. But that doesn't change my opinion of RAW so far.

Drelua

2022-10-22, 01:11 PM

Do we really have such a rule in text form? I'm not aware of it. IMHO this is extrapolated information from tables and not a rule by RAW and thus any interpretation relying on that belongs to the RAI category.
What we have by RAW is a table that shows some values to use for projectile weapons and its ammunition and a rule that you need ammunition for projectile based ranged weapons. Finally we have rules that some magical properties are bestowed to the ammunition from the projectile weapon (enchantment bonus and alignments).

It's listed on the weapons table. By RAW, bows have a x3 multiplier and crit on a 20, and arrows have no multiplier or threat range unless used as an improvised melee weapon, so keen/keen edge can't do anything to an arrow unless you're just stabbing someone with it.

You are making assumptions by extrapolating information and comparing it with other abilities. That belongs to the land of RAI (rules as intended). But it doesn't affect RAW (rules as written). My statement is tagged as "RAW" and thus your arguments don't bother it.
As said, RAW is not a play-advice. It just the most literate interpretation under the 3.5 rules.

You did the same thing extrapolating information and comparing it to another ability, splitting. My point with comparing it to other abilities wasn't to say that it proves anything, except that you didn't prove anything by doing the same thing. If this extrapolation isn't RAW, then neither is yours. Because I can compare it to ki focus and throwing to show that it has to say melee only to be melee only just as easily as you can point to splitting and say it has to say it works on ammo to work on ammo. The same reasoning can work both ways, so it demonstrates nothing.

While I get where (both of) you are going I still don't think that this helps RAW here sadly.

If we want to rely on extrapolated info for RAI arguments, I have one too. (Note that this has nothing to do with my RAW interpretation).
Assume an Enlarged Person with a Projectile Weapon. The effect sole affects the user and this worn equipment. A projectile fired from a range weapon gets smaller due to loosing the "Enlarge Person" effect, while still profiting from the altered stats since the dmg is determined by the weapon it fires (which is still "enlarged").
RAI (and as play advice) I totally agree with you. But that doesn't change my opinion of RAW so far.

The difference here is that (a) enlarge person spells out what happens here, keen doesn't and (b) you use the threat range of the bow, so it doesn't matter if the arrows retains the effects of the spell. Also, enlarge person says projectiles do damage "based on the size of the weapon that fired them." This isn't 100% clear, but it sounds to me like that would be the enlarged size, or they wouldn't have had to phrase it differently from "thrown weapons deal their normal damage." So, in your example, the arrow retains the effect, I think? Unless they meant "based on the normal size of the weapon that fired them," but that's not what they said.

Edit: rereading, you didn't really extrapolate from splitting as much as I thought, (my bad) but I still don't believe anything in that post proves keen would have to be applied to the ammo to function

Gruftzwerg

2022-10-22, 01:33 PM

It's listed on the weapons table. By RAW, bows have a x3 multiplier and crit on a 20, and arrows have no multiplier or threat range unless used as an improvised melee weapon, so keen/keen edge can't do anything to an arrow unless you're just stabbing someone with it.

You did the same thing extrapolating information and comparing it to another ability, splitting. My point with comparing it to other abilities wasn't to say that it proves anything, except that you didn't prove anything by doing the same thing. If this extrapolation isn't RAW, then neither is yours. Because I can compare it to ki focus and throwing to show that it has to say melee only to be melee only just as easily as you can point to splitting and say it has to say it works on ammo to work on ammo. The same reasoning can work both ways, so it demonstrates nothing.

The difference here is that (a) enlarge person spells out what happens here, keen doesn't and (b) you use the threat range of the bow, so it doesn't matter if the arrows retains the effects of the spell. Also, enlarge person says projectiles do damage "based on the size of the weapon that fired them." This isn't 100% clear, but it sounds to me like that would be the enlarged size, or they wouldn't have had to phrase it differently from "thrown weapons deal their normal damage." So, in your example, the arrow retains the effect, I think? Unless they meant "based on the normal size of the weapon that fired them," but that's not what they said.

Edit: rereading, you didn't really extrapolate from splitting as much as I thought, (my bad) but I still don't believe anything in that post proves keen would have to be applied to the ammo to function

Imho I haven't extrapolated info. I have shown what the "General Rules" are and how "Specific Exceptions" can trump em.
And as you said in your own words:

The difference here is that (a) enlarge person spells out what happens here, keen doesn't ...
Which means that "keen" doesn't create the specific exception needed to trump the "General Rules". Thus your keen bow has no permission to bestow the keen effect onto the arrow by RAW.

And btw, the Enlarge Person example was a RAI based argument and contradicts my RAW point of view. That's why I have tagged it as RAI. You can see that the intention is that the weapon should bestow all its properties onto the ammunition. It's just that some rule text like this one is lacking from a pure RAW point of view.
Imho RAW is just lacking here, or maybe even dysfunctional. I get the intend, but they failed to find the right words to be precise enough.
And as said, I'm not advertising to play RAW here. It's the contrary, imho this is a situation where RAI is very handy to prevent issues.

Drelua

2022-10-22, 03:12 PM

Imho I haven't extrapolated info. I have shown what the "General Rules" are and how "Specific Exceptions" can trump em.
And as you said in your own words:

Which means that "keen" doesn't create the specific exception needed to trump the "General Rules". Thus your keen bow has no permission to bestow the keen effect onto the arrow by RAW.

And btw, the Enlarge Person example was a RAI based argument and contradicts my RAW point of view. That's why I have tagged it as RAI. You can see that the intention is that the weapon should bestow all its properties onto the ammunition. It's just that some rule text like this one is lacking from a pure RAW point of view.
Imho RAW is just lacking here, or maybe even dysfunctional. I get the intend, but they failed to find the right words to be precise enough.
And as said, I'm not advertising to play RAW here. It's the contrary, imho this is a situation where RAI is very handy to prevent issues.

Yeah, I may have missed the point of what you were doing a bit.

Just a quick reply because I have to get to work, I still feel you haven't really addressed the point that bows have the crit multiplier. You crit with a bow according to the bow's stats, not the arrow's, so my thinking is that the ability isn't bestowed on the ammo because the crit range of the bow is doubled, so it already applies to crits without the arrows being made keen. Do you disagree with this?

schreier

2022-10-22, 03:28 PM

I do know that "keen arrows" are used in several places (razorfeather arrows from steelwings, deepwood archer prestige class, epic weapon Elven Greatbow)

Gruftzwerg

2022-10-22, 03:43 PM

Yeah, I may have missed the point of what you were doing a bit.

Just a quick reply because I have to get to work, I still feel you haven't really addressed the point that bows have the crit multiplier. You crit with a bow according to the bow's stats, not the arrow's, so my thinking is that the ability isn't bestowed on the ammo because the crit range of the bow is doubled, so it already applies to crits without the arrows being made keen. Do you disagree with this?

While it seems silly, it still seems to be a valid RAW interpretation too. So I kinda agree here.

Imho the problem here is that the authors didn't stick to the same approach (point of view) to explain things. Often a single topic can be explained from different angles always ending in the same information provided at the end. But if you start to mix up the different explanation approaches together, it gets problematic.

And here, the "general rule/approach" is based on the interpretation of a table.
We assume that the dmg and crit properties of a projectile weapon is bestowed on its ammunition due to the way the "weapons" table is presented.
At the same time the more specific magic weapons rules have specific rules for "Ranged Weapons and Ammunition" which sole mentions that enchantment bonuses and weapon alignments are bestowed onto the ammunition.
Finally we assume that the critchance altering keen ability is also bestowed onto the dmg the ammunition deals while the ammunition still ain't keen..
It couldn't get any worse if you ask me..^^

Drelua

2022-10-24, 01:54 PM

While it seems silly, it still seems to be a valid RAW interpretation too. So I kinda agree here.

Imho the problem here is that the authors didn't stick to the same approach (point of view) to explain things. Often a single topic can be explained from different angles always ending in the same information provided at the end. But if you start to mix up the different explanation approaches together, it gets problematic.

Yeah, there's definitely other ways to look at it. I don't think mine is the only valid reading, but it kinda seems like the simpler option to me.

And here, the "general rule/approach" is based on the interpretation of a table.
We assume that the dmg and crit properties of a projectile weapon is bestowed on its ammunition due to the way the "weapons" table is presented.

We assume this because there isn't really any other option. Either you use the properties of the weapon, not the ammo, or... what other option is there? You crit with the bow, not the arrow, because it has the only relevant stats.

At the same time the more specific magic weapons rules have specific rules for "Ranged Weapons and Ammunition" which sole mentions that enchantment bonuses and weapon alignments are bestowed onto the ammunition.

Yeah, it is a bit odd that it works differently from other abilities. This likely wasn't the intention, which is why this is a RAW reading that I happen to think is fair so I'd go with it, not something I think the designers intended.

Finally we assume that the critchance altering keen ability is also bestowed onto the dmg the ammunition deals while the ammunition still ain't keen..
It couldn't get any worse if you ask me..^^

Right, the ammo isn't keen because something that doesn't have a threat range can't benefit from keen. I feel like you're making this seem messy by including info that isn't really relevant, if we're going with my reading. Bows and crossbows are piercing weapons, so they can be keen. Ammo doesn't have to have the effect bestowed upon it because making it keen wouldn't do anything.

How this interacts with keen ammo is another question, that I'm not really sure about. If I were going by strict RAW, I might have to say keen arrows wouldn't work, because they don't have a threat range or a way to apply their effect to the bow, or they can't even be crafted because they don't have a listed damage type, so aren't piercing or slashing weapons. But, if by one reading it works if placed on the bow not the arrow, and by another reading it only works on the arrow, then that's kind of a wash.

IMO, if keen did just say it was bestowed on the ammo, that would be dysfunctional. An arrow can be flaming easily, but without a threat range it can't benefit from keen.

bean illus

2022-10-24, 03:31 PM

IMO, if keen did just say it was bestowed on the ammo, that would be dysfunctional. An arrow can be flaming easily, but without a threat range it can't benefit from keen.

Sure, if you say so. Or ...

The bow goes with the arrow, and they simply thought it obvious that keen goes on the bladed/pointy part.

Now, i know that you are saying it's not clear to you, but really most the world understands it. Nevertheless, if you are the DM I'll gladly accept your ruling.

Thurbane

2022-10-24, 03:34 PM

Fizban

2022-10-24, 04:53 PM

IMHO, the weapon table would make more sense if it was the ammo, rather than the bow/crossbow/sling etc. that had the damage, damage type and critical multiplier listed against it.

I had always assumed this was the case, until it was drawn to my attention in this thread.
The problem with that is how catapult projectile weapons deal damage based on the launcher, not the projectile: two bows sized for the same size of arrow can fire the same arrow, but the heavier draw will still deal more damage, and if one arrow is heavier or lighter it doesn't matter because force in/force out is still mostly the same. Listing damage based on ammo with weapons that can fire X ammo is actually how modern gunpowder cartridge weapons should work, since you can have two bullets with the same size but different power charges. It would also get immediately messy with size changing magic, which is again explicit that the damage is from size of bow regardless of the arrow shrinking after it leaves your possession.

And it's just easier to read if when you're making a character with a bow, you get the normal bow damage from the bow line.

As for Keen bows: Keen is supposed to represent the striking edge being magically sharp (in a particular way that increased crit chance rather than other things sharp can mean), so no Keen bows for me.

Also someone mentioned Steelwing feather ammo fletching- no, the entry says nothing about fletching, just masterwork+keen ammo. And considering the monster attacks by shooting these steel feathers at you, I think the intent is pretty clear that the feathers are ready made arrowheads (or split them into head and fletching).

Drelua

2022-10-24, 05:54 PM

Sure, if you say so. Or ...

The bow goes with the arrow, and they simply thought it obvious that keen goes on the bladed/pointy part.

Now, i know that you are saying it's not clear to you, but really most the world understands it. Nevertheless, if you are the DM I'll gladly accept your ruling.

Most of the world does not understand this, most of the world would have no idea what any of us were talking about if they looked at this thread. I know that's not what you meant, but appeals to 'most people understand...' without a source, like a poll given to a lot of people, isn't really an argument.

All I was saying in the bit you quoted is that arrows don't have a threat range, so an arrow can't double it's own threat range. It would have to be acting on the bow, which is the reverse of how most abilities work according to their text, which to me is as a good a reason as any for the same text.

I have nothing against rulings like Fizban's, what they said is completely reasonable, I was just looking at the rules to figure out what the text says. I'll allow it if a player wants it regardless of any RAW argument, even if someone convinced me it's not supposed to work I'd allow it because I don't see any harm in it. If I say no, they'll probably just take improved critical to do the same thing. I might even houserule it to simplify things, and completely rewrite the text to something like, "keen: this ability allows the weapon's wielder to wield it as if they have the feat improved critical for it's weapon type. If wielding more than one of the same weapon type, this ability only applies to the weapon(s) with the keen ability."

Or just having 'keen' be a defined effect, (instead of explaining it differently when different things double a threat range, and specifying that they don't stack) like a status condition would simplify things.

bean illus

2022-10-24, 07:45 PM

Most of the world does not understand this, most of the world would have no idea what any of us were talking about ...

Actually, most the world does know that the edge part is keen. They don't even need to play dnd.

You're smart, and that's obvious to me, but i think this time you've outsmarted yourself.

Drelua

2022-10-24, 07:54 PM

Sure, if you say so. Or ...

The bow goes with the arrow, and they simply thought it obvious that keen goes on the bladed/pointy part.

Now, i know that you are saying it's not clear to you, but really most the world understands it. Nevertheless, if you are the DM I'll gladly accept your ruling.

Actually, most the world does know that the edge part is keen. They don't even need to play dnd.

You're smart, and that's obvious to me, but i think this time you've outsmarted yourself.

I mean, technically, most people don't speak English, so they wouldn't know what the word keen means at all... (Too lazy to figure out blue text on my phone)

More seriously, (albeit not much more) most English speakers would be at least a bit confused by the statement I bolded. I've already made it clear that I'm not talking about the meaning of the word keen, though.

Saying most English speakers understand the words involved and saying they understand the rules being discussed are two very different things. I could hear someone directly quote a legal document, understand the meaning of every word on its own, and still struggle to understand exactly what was being said. I'm not saying keen doesn't mean sharp. (though it does have several other meanings) I'm trying to interpret the ability's text, not its name.

You'll have to try a bit harder than that to come up with something I can't lawyer my way out of!

bean illus

2022-10-25, 08:15 AM

I mean, technically, most people don't speak English,

...

You'll have to try a bit harder than that to come up with something I can't lawyer my way out of!

I speak 3 languages, and am studying a fourth. They all have a word for keen.

And I'm not trying to talk you out of lawyering. We've already established acceptance of that colloquial. In fact, I've agreed with everything you've said.

My attempt is to observe how designers overlooked being more clear. I assume that they thought it obvious that the bow goes with the arrow, and the sharp part gets the keen, so they didn't bother explaining further (other than improvised weapon, bowstaff, and a bunch of other stuff).

Honestly, i don't see why one can't put imp crit on the bow (as per weapon table), and keen on the edge. Perhaps it's to limit power attack and etc?

Gruftzwerg

2022-10-25, 09:25 AM

My attempt is to observe how designers overlooked being more clear. I assume that they thought it obvious that the bow goes with the arrow, and the sharp part gets the keen, so they didn't bother explaining further (other than improvised weapon, bowstaff, and a bunch of other stuff).

Honestly, i don't see why one can't put imp crit on the bow (as per weapon table), and keen on the edge. Perhaps it's to limit power attack and etc?

A good chunk of 3.5 designers have been either just inexperienced with "writing rules" overall or didn't know/understand the general rules to a topic and how that interacts with the rules they did write.

On some occasions they did fail to create precise defined general rules. And without that, it's hard to decide how any subsequent rules will interact.
Like in our situation. The general rules here are what we subjectively interpret into the "weapons"-table..
What we lack is a clear general definition of how a projectile weapons stats and its projectile's stats interact on an attack.
By RAW we lack any statement how a projectile weapon works at all. We are pretending that the general rule is that the projectile weapon's stats are bestowed onto the fired ammunition without any text based rules.

Finally we have specific examples of projectile weapons bestowing their abilities onto their ammunition (e.g. Splitting), while at the same time abilities like "Keen Arrows" exists, where the ammunition enhances the projectile weapon.
This is what I meant when I did say that they didn't stick to one point of view to explain the rules. They could have worded is as that "any projectile weapon you use becomes keen and bestows it onto it's ammunition" to be more in line with other "projectile weapon/ammunition" rules.

As said, this is just a (more a less useful/useless) RAW debate and not a play-advice. I guess 99% of the tables will (and should imho) just let the projectile weapon be enchanted by "keen" and not worry about it. RAW layering is just to see where the designer have failed (like you said you are interested in) and maybe look for any abuse-able loopholes for Theoretical Optimization exploits. RAW is not a play-advice ;)

If you wanna know how to prevent issues like this: You have to declare as much stuff as possible and should be aware of the rule hierarchy created. You have to declare your general rules as precise as possible and not just throw a table out without any textual help how to read and interpret it.
Something I noticed is, that IIRC we lack any rule that requires you to use the ammunition of the right size for your projectile weapon..

Really, "declare your sh*t and know your sh*t to prevent stuff like this" (if you should ever write rules for something^^).

Drelua

2022-10-25, 02:29 PM

I speak 3 languages, and am studying a fourth. They all have a word for keen.

And I'm not trying to talk you out of lawyering. We've already established acceptance of that colloquial. In fact, I've agreed with everything you've said.

My attempt is to observe how designers overlooked being more clear. I assume that they thought it obvious that the bow goes with the arrow, and the sharp part gets the keen, so they didn't bother explaining further (other than improvised weapon, bowstaff, and a bunch of other stuff).

Honestly, i don't see why one can't put imp crit on the bow (as per weapon table), and keen on the edge. Perhaps it's to limit power attack and etc?

That's the difference between you and me, you assume that they assumed it would work this way, I think they must have assumed something but accept that I can't be completely sure what they assumed. They likely didn't intend it to work, but RAW arguments are a bit like courtroom arguments, in that you can't just say "well I think the person that wrote the law intended this, so..." It doesn't matter what they intended when they wrote it, it matters what they wrote.

And knowing a synonym for keen and knowing the word aren't the same thing. The reason I pointed out that most people would not understand this argument at all, is because saying "this isn't clear to you, but most people understand it" (paraphrasing) isn't an argument. I don't really know how to reply to that except to point out that it isn't true.

You can absolutely guess at what they intended based on what they named the spell, but that's not a RAW argument. I'm curious how this works by RAW, so telling me what the designers probably intended is arguing at cross purposes.

At the end of the day, I'm going to ignore the RAW, and I'm also going to ignore guesses at the designers' intention, and I'm going to make the call that feels right for my games. And until then, I'm going to have pointless arguments with polite strangers on the internet, because I have a lot of free time.

bean illus

2022-10-25, 05:33 PM

... they must have assumed something

<snip>

most people would not understand

<snip>

At the end of the day, I'm going to ignore the RAW, and ... the designers' intention,

It's obvious they assumed something.

Most people do understand. Literally millions of people play, many online. Only a few ask this question.

I don't know how to agree with you enough to satisfy you. When you're DM, do so.

On the weapon chart the ammo is a subheading of the bow. If not used together they are improvised weapons.

I dont see many rules for improvised weapon.

Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Arrows

An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size ...

An arrow is like a dagger, with piercing and slashing, and has a crit range. It still has keen, still masterwork.

A bow used as a staff or club is bludgeoning. Improved crit would still work. Where's the keen go?

Drelua

2022-10-25, 07:08 PM

Okay, I'm confused. You keep saying you agree with me, then contradicting something I said in the same post. Maybe you think you're agreeing with me, but then you say things I disagree with, so the conversation continues. That's how it seems to me, anyway.

But as to the quote you posted, it says "an arrow used as a melee weapon..." So that line is only in effect in that situation. That line does not apply when you're shooting the arrow out of a bow.

The description of an arrow tells you what happens if it's used as an improvised weapon. When used for its intended purpose, it is not an improvised weapon. Kinda like how the cup of tea I'm drinking right now or the table it's on are not improvised melee weapons, but they could be.

Is this a bit silly? Yes. RAW often is.

Darg

2022-10-25, 09:41 PM

If a bow cannot be keen then by extension you would not allow a throwing melee weapon to benefit from the returning ability as it is a melee weapon, not ranged. The name of the effect is "keen." There is no such text that says that it delivers it's effect by making a weapon extra sharp. Keen has many meanings beyond just being a sharp edge or point on a blade. Many of those alternate meanings can facilitate increased likelihood of delivering more decisive strikes. It's a magical effect without description. It can accomplish it's effect in a plethora of ways beyond, again, a sharper blade. Think about it, the improved critical feat doesn't accomplish its effect by sharpening your blade. Likewise the name of a spell doesn't necessarily detail the precise mechanism by which a spell takes effect. The Feather Fall spell doesn't make a feather fall for example. Neither does Keen Edge necessitate that it makes a blade sharper.