Will this Eldritch Blast Combo Work?

[SociopathFriend]

I'm currently a 5/2 Warlock/Wizard (Undead and War if you're curious) and I spent some time thinking about the future while at work. (Power went out)

Namely- whether I should get a Feat at Warlock 8 or not and whether I should stick with Warlock past that or grab some goodies from elsewhere.

Nothing's written in stone but one of the things I had a wonder about was Eldritch Blast.

You see, I've flavored my Arcane Focus as being revolver-shaped and largely have adopted a cowboy persona. I've even got a trusty steed (Flying Broom).

My wonder is- how many times can I shoot Eldritch Blast?

My thoughts are:
1. I can grab the Metamagic feat at Warlock 8- which gets me access to Quicken Spell
2. If I wind up with enough levels- I can grab two Fighter- for Action Surge

Obviously it couldn't be done often but- would I be able to triple-cast Eldritch Blast with that setup?

[Skrum]

Yup, this works. Be a bugbear and add 2d6 to each one when hitting someone that hasn't acted in combat yet.

[SociopathFriend]

We're either a year or many months in so I don't see race-swapping in my future.

But good to know all the same.

First we Hex.

Then, next turn, we unleash the BLAM.

[Rukelnikov]

The feat will work, however, if you are considering multiclass, going Sorcerer and getting Quicken spell is much better, cause you can turn spells into more sorcery points, allowing you to do this very often. I played a SorLock till lvl 17, and by lvl 11, you become one of the best damage dealers out there.

[SociopathFriend]

The feat will work, however, if you are considering multiclass, going Sorcerer and getting Quicken spell is much better, cause you can turn spells into more sorcery points, allowing you to do this very often. I played a SorLock till lvl 17, and by lvl 11, you become one of the best damage dealers out there.

That idea was considered but discarded- namely because if I so much as touch Sorcerer as a Warlock- two different players are both NEVER going to shut up about Aspect of the Moon shenanigans.

Also none of the Sorcerer paths really 'fit' my character imo.

[Rukelnikov]

That idea was considered but discarded- namely because if I so much as touch Sorcerer as a Warlock- two different players are both NEVER going to shut up about Aspect of the Moon shenanigans.

Also none of the Sorcerer paths really 'fit' my character imo.

You don't have to be a coffeelock, I wasn't, but you know your table, too bad though.

[Skrum]

That idea was considered but discarded- namely because if I so much as touch Sorcerer as a Warlock- two different players are both NEVER going to shut up about Aspect of the Moon shenanigans.

Also none of the Sorcerer paths really 'fit' my character imo.

Yah I didn't add it, but taking the metamagic feat is almost certainly not worth it. Quicken spell takes two points, you only have two points, so....1/whatever rest? Idk. That doesn't sound appealing to me. Plus action surge is also only 1/SR.

I love fighter dips and action surge is a great ability for lots of uses (like two leveled spells in a turn), so that is good. Just don't know about the feat xD.

[Keravath]

I'd agree that the metamagic feat to pick up quicken with only 2 sorcery points that only refresh on a long rest is seriously not worth it. You would be able to quicken one spell, one time/day, which really isn't worth the cost of a feat. You'd be better off just taking 2 levels of fighter for action surge and calling it a day at two casts of eldritch blast.

Unless your stats are already maxed and there is no other feat that you might remotely want, which is unlikely since even the moderately armored feat is likely to do a lot more for the characters defences than a once/day extra cast of agonizing blast, it isn't really worth picking up meta-magic adept.

You would be better off with several levels of sorcerer. An undead warlock might thematically fit with a shadow sorcerer for example depending on how dark you are playing the undead warlock.

One thing to keep in mind though, if your game is likely to run into tier 4 then taking too many levels of other classes will prevent the character from having access to a 9th level mystical arcanum - though I'm not sure how much of a consideration that might be.

[Amechra]

Look your DM in the eye and, very nicely, request Illusionist's Bracers (Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica).

[RogueJK]

Yah I didn't add it, but taking the metamagic feat is almost certainly not worth it. Quicken spell takes two points, you only have two points, so....

I'd agree that the metamagic feat to pick up quicken with only 2 sorcery points that only refresh on a long rest is seriously not worth it. You would be able to quicken one spell, one time/day, which really isn't worth the cost of a feat.

Definitely not worth an entire feat just to get one extra EB per day. Even if you've already maxed out your CHA to 20, there are any number of better feat option for your Warlock 8 ASI:

Inspiring Leader
Resilient CON
Warcaster
Lucky
Moderately Armored for Medium Armor/Shield
Eldritch Adept for another Invocation
etc.

I might consider Metamagic Adept on a Warlock, but it certainly wouldn't involve Quickened Spell... Instead, I'd consider taking it for Subtle Spell and Extend Spell. Each only takes 1 sorcery point, so since you get 2 points per long rest, this means you can Subtle/Extend two spells per day. Subtle is useful for times when you can't cast normally (like you're bound/gagged, Silenced, or carrying a large object with both hands), when you want to avoid attention (like while sneaking or if attempting to surreptitiously influence a social encounter like a dinner party or political debate), or when you want to avoid being Counterspelled (since the enemy has to know you're casting a spell in order to counter it). Extend could be quite handy for spells whose duration is 1 hour or longer, like Armor of Agathys or the Summon X spells, since a Warlock could use it to do a "1 hour quasi-ritual casting" by casting the Extended spell immediately before taking a short rest, and then still have the spell in effect for its usual hour duration afterwards while you now have all your Pact slots back (useful for times when you're heading into a fight but have an hour to prep, like a planned gladiatorial contest or before heading into a dungeon).

But even then, Subtle/Extend are only situationally useful, so it wouldn't be my first pick for a Warlock ASI, especially if I had less than a 20 CHA.

[Joe the Rat]

One of my Tournament Arc NPCs was a Warlock/Sorcerer/Fighter 11 (and XBE) fake monk with this exact concept, pushing the majority of spell slots into SP for BA blast. Being able to take the most annoying PC and force punch him across the arena was quite enjoyable.
(His Patron was He Who Punches the Walls of Reality)


Look your DM in the eye and, very nicely, request Illusionist's Bracers (Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica).If you get a bit of hemming and hawing, try having it take the form of a second focus (ostensibly so it has to be drawn and can be taken away) for two-gun action.

[SociopathFriend]

Unless your stats are already maxed and there is no other feat that you might remotely want, which is unlikely since even the moderately armored feat is likely to do a lot more for the characters defences than a once/day extra cast of agonizing blast, it isn't really worth picking up meta-magic adept.



I'll just post the character sheet

Undead Warlock 5 / War Wizard 2
Variant Human

Stats
10 / 18 / 15 / 15 / 11 / 20
HP 66
AC 18 (Mage Armor and Cloak of Protection)
Initiative +6

Invocations
Agonizing Blast
Lance of Lethargy
Gift of the Ever-Living Ones

Items of Import
Rod of Pact Keeper +1
Broom of Flying + Saddle of the Chevalier
Cloak of Protection +1
Amulet of the Drunkard
Sovereign Glue



I can't do my full spells from memory but IIRC:
Eldritch Blast
Shocking Grasp
Hex
Armor of Agathys
Find Familiar (Pact)
Mirror Image
Counterspell
^Warlock

Wizard is mostly utility Rituals and Cantrips plus Mage Armor.




The campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil 5e version.

[RogueJK]

I'd put Metamagic Adept at about #12 on the list of best ways to spend your Warlock 8 ASI for that specific PC. (And even then, it wouldn't be to take Quickened Spell, but rather Subtle and Extend as outlined above.)


Notably, a non-Sorcerer caster with an odd Constitution score owes it to themselves to take the Resilient CON feat. It gets you more HP, better CON saves, and most importantly a big boost to your Concentration checks. (Especially important on a Warlock with their limited slots... It really sucks to spend 50% of your slots casting a single Concentration spell just to lose Concentration shortly afterwards.)

Inspiring Leader is also well worth taking at Warlock 8. Your 10th character level and 20 CHA would go a long way with Inspiring Leader, generating 15 Temp HP for every party member (including yourself), after every single short and long rest. That's a huge amount of Temp HP every day. (Hundreds of HP...) And it will only continue to get better with every additional character level.

Or, you could even benefit from something like taking the Fey Touched feat and rounding off your odd INT or WIS. This gets you +1 to that ability's saves and skills, plus additional spellcasting to supplement your limited Warlock slots. Misty Step is a fantastic "get out of jail/grapple/mouth/hazard free" card, and doesn't rely on an ability score so it won't matter that it's INT/WIS-based. For your 1st level spell known, you could take something equally non-ability-dependent, like Bless, or Gift of Alacrity. Or even take Hex, for a free 1 hour Hex every day without having to spend any of your Pact slots, and if you want the longer duration Hex you can still spend a Pact slot for it. You can then trade out the Hex from your Warlock spells known for something else on the Warlock list, as part of your Warlock leveling up to 8.

[SociopathFriend]

Well on the topic of alternate Metamagics- how does Empowered work when it comes to Eldritch Blast and Hex?

Can it only work on EB's dice or Hex' dice?

[werescythe]

One thing to remember is that in addition to bumping spell range, Spell Sniper also allows for casted ranged spells up close and personal as well as ignoring all but total cover when attacking enemies, so Spell Sniper would probably be better than metamagic adept.

[Rukelnikov]

Well on the topic of alternate Metamagics- how does Empowered work when it comes to Eldritch Blast and Hex?

Can it only work on EB's dice or Hex' dice?

As far as I understand you get to reroll a number of damage dice for a spell equal to your casting stat. Its per spell, not per damage roll, so you could reroll every blast of a single EB. With Hex you could reroll up to 5 times, asuuming you only use them on 1s, it'd be comparable to 5 times +2.5 damage, which is +12.5 damage. At least with Hex you don't have to worry about wasting your SP, since its likely over the course of Hex's duration you will get to apply it at least 4 times, with EB though its more of a gamble, since you have to decide whether to use it or not when casting, so before rolling to hit and damage. You may very well waste your SP in a cast of EB where only 1 dice hit, or where all hits roll good damage.

To be honest, I think Metamagic Adept is a weak feat unless you are a Sorcerer. 2 SP is extremely constraining, usually 2 effects per long rest, or 1 if Quicken or Seeking.

There may be specific characters that can make use of Extend or Transmute Spell, like freeing up your 8th level slot every other day if you like to be under constant Mind Blank (as any self respecting t4 Wizard should) or something like that, but as a Warlock you can't do that cause you don't have 8th level slots, you get Mystic Arcanum.

[SociopathFriend]

To be honest, I think Metamagic Adept is a weak feat unless you are a Sorcerer. 2 SP is extremely constraining, usually 2 effects per long rest, or 1 if Quicken or Seeking.



Or whatnow?

[Rukelnikov]

Or whatnow?

Its one of the metamagics from Tasha's, spend 2 SP to reroll a spell attack roll.

[Digimike]

As others have said, quicken just isn't worth it if you're not a sorcerer.

This would be some serious rewrite, but how about changing your character to a pact weapon warlock.

Fluff the bow option with improved pact weapon nto a gun then unleash hell with eldritch smite. You can use the feat to get ritual caster and keep a familiar if that's your thing.

[Telok]

Lucky. Negates crits on you, may allow you to succeed important saves or concentration. There are very few better feats for a caster.

Quicken spell also notably runs into the "no two cantrips" thing, making you cast a leveled spell plus eb instead of double eb. Fighter or those insane bracers are the way to get to double eb. Another option might be getting a ring of spell storing for your familiar (at least get it a small bag and a couple healing potions).

[JNAProductions]

Lucky. Negates crits on you, may allow you to succeed important saves or concentration. There are very few better feats for a caster.

Quicken spell also notably runs into the "no two cantrips" thing, making you cast a leveled spell plus eb instead of double eb. Fighter or those insane bracers are the way to get to double eb. Another option might be getting a ring of spell storing for your familiar (at least get it a small bag and a couple healing potions).

No? The rule is "If you cast a spell as a bonus action, all other spells you cast that turn must be cantrips."

You can double up on cantrips with Quicken just fine.

[Telok]

No? The rule is "If you cast a spell as a bonus action, all other spells you cast that turn must be cantrips."

You can double up on cantrips with Quicken just fine.

Is that it? Honestly my last two dms and I had enough truoble renembering the exact word crap in the middle of games that we've just all gone with "if bonus spell then one cantrip and one leveled". Its, ya know, simpler and has worked the same for us.

[JNAProductions]

Is that it? Honestly my last two dms and I had enough truoble renembering the exact word crap in the middle of games that we've just all gone with "if bonus spell then one cantrip and one leveled". Its, ya know, simpler and has worked the same for us.

If I was to rewrite it, it'd be "No more than one leveled spell per turn."

So you can cantrip spam, but not Fireball, for instance.

[SociopathFriend]

This would be some serious rewrite, but how about changing your character to a pact weapon warlock.


I've gone pretty hardcore on, "Defending the land and those who have died to settle it" and have repeatedly made use of the Sprite Familiar regarding the first part of that theme. The campaign is the Princes of the Apocalypse so battling for the land itself was a pretty viable route.

[Rukelnikov]

Is that it? Honestly my last two dms and I had enough truoble renembering the exact word crap in the middle of games that we've just all gone with "if bonus spell then one cantrip and one leveled". Its, ya know, simpler and has worked the same for us.


If I was to rewrite it, it'd be "No more than one leveled spell per turn."

So you can cantrip spam, but not Fireball, for instance.

Its not exactly the same, the current rules allow 1 quickened level spell and an action cantrip, but not a bonus action cantrip and an action leveled spell. In practice there is not much difference, I think Shillelagh and Magic Stone are the only bonus action cantrips, and there are no methods of quickening cantrips that wouldn't also allow quickening leveled spells.


I've gone pretty hardcore on, "Defending the land and those who have died to settle it" and have repeatedly made use of the Sprite Familiar regarding the first part of that theme. The campaign is the Princes of the Apocalypse so battling for the land itself was a pretty viable route.

Mechanically what you want is a Sorlock, shotting lots of rays is their thing. The only way of replicating it would be using Illusionist's Bracers.

Given you can't or don't want to be a Sorlock, I think you could get closer to that and remain in theme with Bladesinger and XBE, if you can change from WW to BS, its a long ways off, but by level 11 (Undead 5/Bladesinger 6) you'd be casting EB and making 2 hand crossbow attacks per turn, if you are not afraid of getting up close and personal with your enemies, toss Spirit Shroud on top of that and you'll be dealing very respectable damage.

[SociopathFriend]

As far as I understand you get to reroll a number of damage dice for a spell equal to your casting stat. Its per spell, not per damage roll, so you could reroll every blast of a single EB. With Hex you could reroll up to 5 times, asuuming you only use them on 1s, it'd be comparable to 5 times +2.5 damage, which is +12.5 damage. At least with Hex you don't have to worry about wasting your SP, since its likely over the course of Hex's duration you will get to apply it at least 4 times, with EB though its more of a gamble, since you have to decide whether to use it or not when casting, so before rolling to hit and damage. You may very well waste your SP in a cast of EB where only 1 dice hit, or where all hits roll good damage.

It only just hit me that you spend the SP when you cast the spell. I was thinking, "Shoot the enemy, reroll any 1s for Hex until you're out of Charisma stacks."

Which is wrong. You use the Metamagic when casting- not randomly after it's already cast.

It's something I "knew" but not something I was actually thinking about properly.