Help me make my players into super soldiers.

[george moshingt]

So long story short i'm DMing a game in my own homebrew world, where there is a group of enhanced individuals known as Venators.
Venators are adventurers, heroes, soldiers, etc who through their skill and deeds have proven themselves to be worthy of becoming something more.
Their physical and spiritual(magical) selves are torn asunder and put back together stronger making them some of the most elite and powerful individuals in the world. The process itself however is quite dangerous and most who attempt it dont survive.
Think Witchers, Space Marines, Spartans, Etc....

Anyway my players in the campaign have reached a point where they are going to be offered the chance to undergo this treatment. Each player will get to choose if they want to try or not. They will roll a D100 and there will be a 10% chance their character will permanently die.(this will be made very clear before they decide)

Now the problem is im having difficulty coming up with the abilities i should give them should they succeed on the test.

I have previously described the Venator as being strong and tough with the ability to see and sense magic, as well as being expert trackers and fighters.

so i was thinking about giving something like Darkvision, detect magic a number of times per rest, and maybe an unarmed strike die rather than 1 plus strength.

any help on what to give them mechanically, both to represent the idea of these enhanced individuals, but also to be a good enough boon to try to get considering they might die. (i should mention resurrection/reincarnation spells dont exist in my world so if they die they die.)

thanks in advance.

[BRC]

Assuming you want this to represent a genuine major power boost, let's break out the abilities

"Sense Magic": Detect Magic, plus the ability to sense the presence of magic (but no further details) on a perception check.

"Tough": +2 constitution, or give 'em the Tough feat.

"Expert Trackers and fighters" That might just be a side-effect of the type of people who undergo the process. They're not going to Ventatorize anybody who isn't already an expert fighter. For the tracking skills, enhanced senses give 'em advantage on tracking targets.

Throw in dark/low light vision.

"Strong" You could just give them +2 Strength, but that's only a benefit for strength based characters. I'd give them proficiency in Athletics (Expertise if they already have it), and, for simplicities sake, the ability to raise all weapon damage dice one step (d4->d6->d8->D10->d12/2d6->2d8).

[nickl_2000]

Just some ideas off the top of my head:
-Bonus to str
-bonus to con
-bonus to dex
-Tough feat
-Durable feat
-X castings of detect magic
-Darkvision or expanded darkvision
-A second wind like ability
-1/day When you fail of Con/Str/Dex save you can automatically succeed
-Gain extra HP when spending HD on a short rest
-Gain X THP at the end of a short or long rest
-Prof/Expertise in either survival or nature
-Prof/Expertise in Athletics or Acrobatics

[Amnestic]

If they're meant to have super endurance, you could change the way death saves work for them. Example: No double fail on a 1, only a 'normal' fail on a 1-7, a success on a 8-15, a 'crit' success on a 16-20. Tweak the numbers to taste.

Makes it far more likely that they simply stand up again after dropping to 0.

You could expand their save proficiencies, and/or give them half proficiencies in the ones they don't have.

You could give them immunity to exhaustion, and reduce the time needed for a long rest to recover their abilities.

[Bobthewizard]

They are PCs so they already fit the category pretty well. That means you don't need to shoehorn the benefits to exactly match what you envision, and you can give the players some choices. I'd use one or more of the following.

1. Free feat of their choice.
2. Epic boon of their choice.
3. The effect of their choice of one of the Manual/Tomb magic items (+2 stat, 22 max)
4. One other initial subclass ability from their class.

As a player, I'd love for my PC to get any of those. Depending on the game, you could give them up to all of those if you wanted.

[kazaryu]

ok so there's 2 parts to this IMO. the first part is upgrading the character sheet to match the fantasy.

1. i'd just straight give them a flat +2 to all 6 ability scores, and raise the maximums of those ability scores to 30.
2. give them at-will detect magic. maybe even add a clause that its only functions like the spell, but is not, itself, magical (that is, if you see it as being a non-magic abiltiy).

with these 2 changes the upgraded characters are guaranteed to be a cut above even standard PC's (but not soooo much better that any PC that chooses to not undergo the process will feel left behind).

now, the second part is to make the characters feel like they've gotten an upgrade. this is best done with abilities that are going to be called on more frequently. they don't neccisarily have to be active abilities. but if they're passive they should be widely applicable. like, resistance to a common damage type. otherwise, active abilities would also work. i'd probably have a grab bag and let each playerpick 2 or 3. so something like

'pick a feat and 2 of the below'....etc. (sorry, im super tired atm, or i'd think of example abilities, but you get the idea. ideally you don't want them to be so strong that PC's that choose to refuse feel useless).

[Greywander]

I have previously described the Venator as being strong and tough with the ability to see and sense magic, as well as being expert trackers and fighters.
Something like a boost to their ability scores is boring, but effective. I think the problem is that it throws off the game balance somewhat while at the same time underselling the intended fantasy. Ending up with a 22 in your primary stat is good, but it doesn't feel like a super soldier. So let's try something else instead.

Double carry weight. Double jump distance. Increase speed by 10 feet. With no change in ability scores, they're suddenly stronger and faster than most other people. And not just a little, with enough STR they can easily achieve superhuman carry weights and jump distances, and those dumping STR are still comparable to Olympic athletes.

If you want to buff damage, and you want it normalized across every class, I would add proficiency bonus to one damage roll against one enemy, once per turn. That way, the bonus is the same regardless of whether they get many attacks or only one, whether they use attacks or saving throws, or whether they use single target or AoE.

For toughness, there are several options. Extra HP is the straightforward one. You could also do HAM-style damage reduction. Or something like the goliath ability. Or a self heal like Second Wind. You can also make them harder to kill by requiring, say, five failed death saves for them to die, instead of three.

Lastly, I think darkvision and either limited or at will casting of Detect Magic should finish this out.

What kind of game are you running? Will it be an issue if only some players do the transformation? Have you discussed asymmetrical balance between PCs with the players? Ideally, that discussion would have happened during session zero so that the players knew what they were signing up for.

[Kane0]

Now the problem is im having difficulty coming up with the abilities i should give them should they succeed on the test.

I have previously described the Venator as being strong and tough with the ability to see and sense magic, as well as being expert trackers and fighters.

so i was thinking about giving something like Darkvision, detect magic a number of times per rest, and maybe an unarmed strike die rather than 1 plus strength.

any help on what to give them mechanically, both to represent the idea of these enhanced individuals, but also to be a good enough boon to try to get considering they might die. (i should mention resurrection/reincarnation spells dont exist in my world so if they die they die.)


PC undergoing the procedure makes a CON save
<7: They Die
8-14: 1 Boon of choice
15-21: 2 Boons of choice
22+: 3 Boons of choice


Alertness:
- You gain a +5 bonus to initiative
- You gain a +5 to your passive Perception and Insight scores
- Choose one:
*While you are conscious you cannot be Surprised (technically not a condition, but the binary state for rules purposes)
*Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you

Defensive Instinct:
- When you are hit by an attack while wielding a melee weapon, you can use your Reaction to add your Proficiency Bonus to your AC against that attack, potentially causing it to miss.

Great Fortitude:
- You gain proficiency in your choice of Strength or Constitution saving throws. If you are already or later become proficient in both, instead choose one to gain expertise in (yes, expertise in a saving throw)
- When subject to an effect that allows you to make a saving throw at the start or end of your turn, you can choose to make that saving throw at the start or end of your turn

Lightning Reflexes:
- You gain proficiency in your choice of Dexterity or Intelligence saving throws. If you are already or later become proficient in both, instead choose one to gain expertise in (yes, expertise in a saving throw)
- After you take a Reaction, you can choose to take another on a different turn before the start of your next turn. Once you take your second reaction you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Magically Adept:
- You learn the one Cantrip, one 1st-level and one 2nd-level spell of your choice. These spells must be either all from the same class list or all of the same spell school.
- You can the 1st-level and 2nd-level spells once each without expending a spell slot. Once you cast either of these spells in this way, you can’t cast it in this way again until you finish a long rest.
- You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is your choice of Int, Wis or Cha.

Magical Mastery:
- You learn one Warlock invocation that you meet the requirements for
- You learn one Sorcerer Metamagic and gain Sorcery points equal to half your Proficiency bonus, which are regained when you finish a long rest

Martially Adept:
- You learn one fighting style from the Fighter list
- You learn one Battlemaster Maneuver and gain one d6 Superiority die, which is regained when you finish a short or long rest. If you already have or later gain superiority dice then this d6 changes to match those.

Mobility:
- You gain your choice of +10 feet to your movement speed, a Climb speed equal to your movement or a Swim speed equal to your movement
- When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
- Standing from prone only costs you 5 feet of movement, and you can make a running jump without a running start

Savagery:
- When you take the Dash action you can make one melee weapon attack or shove attempt at the end of your movement. You cannot move again on your turn after you make this attack or shove
- When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, the next attack roll made against the target before the end of your next turn has advantage
- When you have advantage on a melee weapon attack and both rolls would hit you can roll one additional weapon damage die and add it as extra damage of the weapon's damage type

Toughness:
- You gain extra HP equal to twice your proficiency bonus (this increases when your Prof bonus does)
- Whenever another creature causes you to regain hit points, you can use your Reaction to recover further. Roll (and expend) one Hit Die, add your Constitution modifier, and regain a number of hit points equal to the total (minimum of 1)
- When you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points, the minimum result is equal to your Constitution modifier (if you have a 20 Con you can actually heal 5 from a d4, but no published classes have a d4 Hit Die)


In cases where these overlap with feats, the character cannot also take the feat in question.

[RSP]

I like raising the max ability score, so I’ll second that (a cool feature that makes them “better than normal PCs”).

Boons are another good way to power up, however, if you don’t want to go that epic, what about giving them each 2-3 Invocations? Devils Sight, Beast Speech, Armor of Shadows, Eldritch Sight, Eldritch Spear, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Fiendish Vigor, etc.

These seem to give some cool things they can do, that seem to fit what you’re looking for.

[nickl_2000]

I am curious about their level and what death means. We are talking about D&D where death really just costs money. Can I just get Revivified and then try again? Is the death permanent?

[george moshingt]

I am curious about their level and what death means. We are talking about D&D where death really just costs money. Can I just get Revivified and then try again? Is the death permanent?

Death is permanent, revival spells don't exist in my world. If they die they die, there is no coming back.

As for level they will be level 7-8 when presented with the option for the transformation. The campaign is intended to go to around level 14-16

[Gignere]

Death is permanent, revival spells don't exist in my world. If they die they die, there is no coming back.

As for level they will be level 7-8 when presented with the option for the transformation. The campaign is intended to go to around level 14-16

I think this is bad DMing, to risk a PC death on a RNG is anticlimactic worst way for a PC to go.

I roll a dice and hey I died but my buddies here passed theirs and they gain amazing powers wow this is so memorable, not.

This is why main characters in stories when they go through trials that 99 out of 100 people fails and dies, manages to get through theirs, because otherwise it will be a ****ty story if the main character dies like the other 99 schmoes.

I would change it to at least some kind of test where players have some agency beyond just the roll of the die. Maybe they can do something that guarantees their success. Otherwise I am 100% against this idea. What if the dice gods hates the party that day and all of them fails do you just say to your players sorry campaigns over y’all died.

[george moshingt]

I think this is bad DMing, to risk a PC death on a RNG is anticlimactic worst way for a PC to go.

I roll a dice and hey I died but my buddies here passed theirs and they gain amazing powers wow this is so memorable, not.

This is why main characters in stories when they go through trials that 99 out of 100 people fails and dies, manages to get through theirs, because otherwise it will be a ****ty story if the main character dies like the other 99 schmoes.

I would change it to at least some kind of test where players have some agency beyond just the roll of the die. Maybe they can do something that guarantees their success. Otherwise I am 100% against this idea. What if the dice gods hates the party that day and all of them fails do you just say to your players sorry campaigns over y’all died.

The intent is to be high risk high reward, the chance of permanent death is why they get to choose to accept the transformation or not. If the whole party dies then yes I would say roll up new characters this parties campaign is over. But the odds of 5 people all making the attempt and each one of them rolling a 1-9 on a d100 is insanely high. Besides if I change it to a con saving throw or some other skill check the dice can still determine that they will, and considering checks operate on a much lower number scale it would actually be more likely that they would die.

If there is no real risk then I'm just giving them all free power ups, and that is not the intent.

If they all died i would say the dice gods determined that's how the campaign should end and just accept it.

[animorte]

Another concern: Even if only 1 or 2 of them dies, what will you do with the rest of them? Roll up a new character and then battle alongside your buddies here, all of which are superior?

Do those new PCs get the opportunity to accept the same trial? If so, what is the point of killing the first ones?

Will the new PCs not get that opportunity and just be stuck as the weaker party members?

You see where I’m going with this? It’s a cool idea, but it has the opportunity to imbalance the game and ruin the fun for whoever doesn’t get it. What are your plans to balance that and keep it fun for everybody?

I guess a person dying and rolling up a new character would be in the same position as somebody who choose not to take the risk, but you will still face that imbalance at some point.

[Gignere]

The intent is to be high risk high reward, the chance of permanent death is why they get to choose to accept the transformation or not. If the whole party dies then yes I would say roll up new characters this parties campaign is over. But the odds of 5 people all making the attempt and each one of them rolling a 1-9 on a d100 is insanely high. Besides if I change it to a con saving throw or some other skill check the dice can still determine that they will, and considering checks operate on a much lower number scale it would actually be more likely that they would die.

If there is no real risk then I'm just giving them all free power ups, and that is not the intent.

If they all died i would say the dice gods determined that's how the campaign should end and just accept it.

Haha spoken like a gambler if the roulette has stopped on black 6 times it can’t stop on it a seventh. However each roll is independent and not dependent on the previous roll, martingale fallacy. Also look up law of small numbers.

The law of large numbers only work on truly large numbers of attempts. When you are doing this once and you get 5 or 6 1s on a d10 in a row it can happen.

Anyway it is bad DMing that you can’t think of a more thematic or create a sense of danger that you need to delegate your storytelling to pointless RNG that player agency has no way to impact, besides yes/no.

[Keravath]

One question is how much choice the players characters have in guiding the transformation. Can they encourage the magic in certain directions allowing the player to make choices about how they become more powerful? Or is it a process that follows a rule set to transform a character?

The following is not a great example because neither of the feats is particularly powerful but the idea being that class would define the upgrades for the character or does the player have some choice?
e.g. martial characters get the feat that gives a fighting style vs spell casters getting the metamagic feat with 4 sorcery points?

There are a lot of great suggestions in the thread and many ways you can take it. Some other ideas could include.
- additional spell slots
- additional attacks
- adding features from other classes
- creating gestalt characters with two different classes at the same level
- giving the characters the benefits of two archetypes of their class

The above are all higher powered options that would really set these characters far above other adventurers. However, how much of a power increase do you want as DM?

Personally, I like the stat increase suggestions with the corresponding increase in stat maximums since that is something that is usually difficult to achieve but the +1 modifier isn't usually enough to massively unbalance the game. It really depends on how much power creep do you want the transformation to provide. (e.g. +2 to one stat or even +2 to all stats won't really disrupt things too much since most characters only rely on 1 or 2 stats - however, it will make every character stronger/faster/more resilient/smarter/wiser/willful if only by a +1 difference which matches the description).

Some of the other abilities could be implemented by giving the characters Eldritch Invocation feats which allow certain things at will. This was mentioned above but getting both Devils sight and Eldritch Sight (detect magic at will) would both account for enhanced and unusual senses. A warlock character might be able to get a free pick of any replacement invocation as their modification if they already had these. Alternatively, darkvision that can see through magical darkness (as most demons/devils) might also be an option since it avoids the devils sight invocation feature of only working in darkness and not dim light. Blindsight with a small radius might also be a good sensory upgrade.

Anyway, there are a huge number of benefits you could use, the real question is how powerful you want the characters afterward.

------

However ...

You might also have the issue of folks feeling like they have to do it just to stay "competitive" with the other players. This could cause strains in the game comparable to the use of the Deck of Many Things which randomly creates strong characters and weak characters to the extent that those with weakened characters often don't enjoy continuing to play the game. You also need to consider what a player does if their character dies? How does that player continue to contribute to the campaign? Will they have to play a new regular character alongside their friends with these powerful enhanced characters? Is that going to be fun for them?

The problem with random death scenarios like this is what to do when someone dies. Telling the players that their character could die isn't the same as them facing the moment when the dice come up 02 and their character, that they have played to level 8 for who knows how long, is dead with no way to bring them back.

Lore wise it sounds like this transformation is something characters in this world might aspire to which for someone who is role playing may mean that they don't think there is any choice. In game, NPCs may look down on them for being a coward and refusing to become a defender of the realm by taking the risk of the transformation. Which means that the PCs may feel that they don't really have a choice, they have to do it from a role play perspective and when the character dies in the process the player will be unhappy as a result because they felt they didn't really have a choice. (The same happens if the benefits are really good and a min/max type player decides they really have to roll). People just cross their fingers and hope they won't lose the die roll ... until they do ... then the DM has to have a plan to pick up the pieces.

[george moshingt]

Another concern: Even if only 1 or 2 of them dies, what will you do with the rest of them? Roll up a new character and then battle alongside your buddies here, all of which are superior?

Do those new PCs get the opportunity to accept the same trial? If so, what is the point of killing the first ones?

Will the new PCs not get that opportunity and just be stuck as the weaker party members?

You see where I’m going with this? It’s a cool idea, but it has the opportunity to imbalance the game and ruin the fun for whoever doesn’t get it. What are your plans to balance that and keep it fun for everybody?

I guess a person dying and rolling up a new character would be in the same position as somebody who choose not to take the risk, but you will still face that imbalance at some point.

Yeah if they died they would roll up a new character. The new character would not have the option to take the trail at first, but they would get the chance pretty quickly.

One player has already died in the campaign and rolled up a new character, they understand death means something in my world, and it has led to them making some interesting decisions throughout the campaign.

As for imbalance, that's already a problem in the game. The party argued for rolled stats and I allowed it. Some got much better stats then others. Also some players have super min maxed combat builds while others don't. I just work my combat encounters around their strengths and weaknesses and make sure everything in the campaign is not focused on combat so everyone has a chance to shine and feel important through the game.

[animorte]

just work my combat encounters around their strengths and weaknesses and make sure everything in the campaign is not focused on combat so everyone has a chance to shine and feel important through the game.
Well, I really like this part, so thanks for including it. Keeping everyone relevant can be a challenge.

[Keravath]

Haha spoken like a gambler if the roulette has stopped on black 6 times it can’t stop on it a seventh. However each roll is independent and not dependent on the previous roll, martingale fallacy. Also look up law of small numbers.

The law of large numbers only work on truly large numbers of attempts. When you are doing this once and you get 5 or 6 1s on a d10 in a row it can happen.

Anyway it is bad DMing that you can’t think of a more thematic or create a sense of danger that you need to delegate your storytelling to pointless RNG that player agency has no way to impact, besides yes/no.

The chance of all 6 failing a 1 in 10 roll is vanishingly small. It could happen but the odds are literally 1 in a million times the dice are rolled for a party of 6 characters.

However, the bigger issue, is that for a party of 6, the odds of at least one dying are 47%. So about half the time that the party rolls the dice, at least one of them will die, what does that player DO? Does the DM kick them from the campaign? Do they have to start a new character now under powered and useless feeling compared to the rest of the party? Does the DM let them create a newly minted hero class character as a replacement?

If the DM has them create a new hero class character then why not let them all succeed in the first place? I understand the thrill of rolling the die, I did it when playing a certain scene in Tomb of Annihilation with a 1/6 chance of instant death and also no resurrection possible due to the campaign rules. However, that was an Adventurer's League game so I knew the DM could insert a new character of mine with little issues AND the transformation was good but not so unreasonably powerful that it was game breaking (darkvision, magic resistance, immunity to poison and the poisoned condition) .. in that particular case it was a role playing decision.

What is the plan B for players whose character's die in the transformation? The DM doesn't need to tell the players in advance what the plan B is - let them go with the character dying - BUT the DM needs to know what they will do afterward with players of the 1-3 characters that may die in the process ... that will keep them enjoying the game too. So I'd aim for an upgrade that is decent but not game breaking and doesn't represent a huge increase in the power of the characters so that playing a regular character along side them remains a reasonable option.

[Gignere]

The chance of all 6 failing a 1 in 10 roll is vanishingly small. It could happen but the odds are literally 1 in a million times the dice are rolled for a party of 6 characters.

However, the bigger issue, is that for a party of 6, the odds of at least one dying are 47%. So half the time that the party rolls the dice, at least one of them will die, what does that player DO? Does the DM kick them from the campaign? Do they have to start a new character now under powered and useless feeling compared to the rest of the party? Does the DM let them create a newly minted hero class character as a replacement? However, if the DM does that then why not let them all succeed in the first place? I understand the thrill of rolling the die, I did it when playing a certain scene in Tomb of Annihilation with a 1/6 chance of instant death and also no resurrection possible due to the campaign rules. However, that was an Adventurer's League game so I knew the DM could insert a new character of mine with little issues AND the transformation was good but not so unreasonably powerful that it was game breaking (darkvision, magic resistance, immunity to poison and the poisoned condition) .. in that particular case it was a role playing decision.

What is the plan B for players whose character's die in the transformation?

OP said he’d make them roll new characters, but if I was a player in OP’s game I’d probably quit right there after a PC I’ve been playing for maybe a year dies on a pure RNG roll. This isn’t 1st level characters where you just swap in and out. Or even AL where you have no continuity with the party or even DM.

[Greywander]

As long as your players are fine with it. Have you discussed this with them? Did you cover it in session zero? Expectations are super important; even if they would be fine with it if they knew about it ahead of time, springing something on them by surprise can sour the experience. I'm not saying you need to run every single thing by your players before you do it, just that you should ask them if they're okay with permadeath by RNG and with having mismatched power levels between PCs.

[george moshingt]

As long as your players are fine with it. Have you discussed this with them? Did you cover it in session zero? Expectations are super important; even if they would be fine with it if they knew about it ahead of time, springing something on them by surprise can sour the experience. I'm not saying you need to run every single thing by your players before you do it, just that you should ask them if they're okay with permadeath by RNG and with having mismatched power levels between PCs.

We discussed all this in a session zero, where we worked out the type of game they were interested in playing, the complexity of combat they were looking forward to, the world state, and the house rules for this particular world.
Also think it's important to mention that the players in this game are not a group that I have just met up with, but rather friends of mine I have known for a very long time(some for 15 years or so), even long before we started playing d&d. I'm not worried about any of them rage quiting over character deaths, we will work together to make sure everyone is enjoying the game. (That is after all my number one goal as a DM, make sure everyone is having fun and enjoying them game).

[Greywander]

Excellent, that was my major concern in all this, but it sounds like you're good to go there. Are you still looking for suggestions on how to handle the upgrade mechanically, or have you settled on something you like?

[george moshingt]

Excellent, that was my major concern in all this, but it sounds like you're good to go there. Are you still looking for suggestions on how to handle the upgrade mechanically, or have you settled on something you like?

I think I've settled on something. I'm thinking about handing out some standard bonuses like
Darkvision
Detect magic at will
Bonus to speed
Advantage on tracking

And then a grab bag of a few bonuses for them to choose from so that they can all feel like venators, but still have some variety and the ability to shape their characters.
Feats
Stat increases
Eldrich invocations

[animorte]

Eldrich invocations

Something like this and Artificer Infusions perhaps. They could decide on some pretty neat modifications (level appropriate of course).

[Skrum]

I would strongly advise against the death roll. It makes sense as a narrative piece, but not so from a story perspective. We all know Captain America doesn't die from the serum, even if the story builds tension iyn that point.

If you want to incorporate a risk factor, maybe use something like the Dark Gifts? Roll the dice, and if it fails the character gets an additional "drawback" type thing that can be turned into a nice ongoing RP opportunity. Death is just ... Not going to work out when you consider the player at the table.

[Greywander]

I would strongly advise against the death roll. It makes sense as a narrative piece, but not so from a story perspective. We all know Captain America doesn't die from the serum, even if the story builds tension iyn that point.

If you want to incorporate a risk factor, maybe use something like the Dark Gifts? Roll the dice, and if it fails the character gets an additional "drawback" type thing that can be turned into a nice ongoing RP opportunity. Death is just ... Not going to work out when you consider the player at the table.
It depends on the type of game they're playing. A platforming section in a Mario game is very different from a platforming section in a Dark Souls game. It sounds like the players understand and accept the risks, so it should be fine.

You could make a similar argument to not let the PCs die at all. Why kill them in combat when they can just be knocked out and captured? Why roll death saves instead of just declaring the character knocked out? But death saves are part of the base rules, so the players know that death saves are a thing and accept the possibility that they might fail and die. If the default rule was to just knock the character out and death saves were a house rule, then it would be unfair to spring them on the players by surprise. But if you discussed it ahead of time and the players agreed to include death saves as part of the game, then it would be fine.

It's all about expectations. As long as expectations are properly aligned, you can do just about anything. PvP, darker themes like rape and torture, random BS deaths, etc. If the players aren't okay with it, they simply won't play in that game. Now, you might have trouble finding players to agree to play in a game with those things, but assuming you can then it shouldn't be an issue.

But the important thing is aligning expectations ahead of time. If I'm expecting a dungeon crawl and you give me a high seas campaign, I'm going to be upset. Not because I have a problem with high seas games, but because that's not what I signed up for. If you tell me ahead of time that it's going to be a high seas campaign, then I have time to properly align my expectations and prepare myself mentally. By the time the first session starts, I might be really hyped for a high seas game. The difference between being upset and being hyped is just whether I was properly informed of the game's content or not.

[Skrum]

It depends on the type of game they're playing. A platforming section in a Mario game is very different from a platforming section in a Dark Souls game. It sounds like the players understand and accept the risks, so it should be fine.

You could make a similar argument to not let the PCs die at all. Why kill them in combat when they can just be knocked out and captured? Why roll death saves instead of just declaring the character knocked out? But death saves are part of the base rules, so the players know that death saves are a thing and accept the possibility that they might fail and die. If the default rule was to just knock the character out and death saves were a house rule, then it would be unfair to spring them on the players by surprise. But if you discussed it ahead of time and the players agreed to include death saves as part of the game, then it would be fine.

It's all about expectations. As long as expectations are properly aligned, you can do just about anything. PvP, darker themes like rape and torture, random BS deaths, etc. If the players aren't okay with it, they simply won't play in that game. Now, you might have trouble finding players to agree to play in a game with those things, but assuming you can then it shouldn't be an issue.

But the important thing is aligning expectations ahead of time. If I'm expecting a dungeon crawl and you give me a high seas campaign, I'm going to be upset. Not because I have a problem with high seas games, but because that's not what I signed up for. If you tell me ahead of time that it's going to be a high seas campaign, then I have time to properly align my expectations and prepare myself mentally. By the time the first session starts, I might be really hyped for a high seas game. The difference between being upset and being hyped is just whether I was properly informed of the game's content or not.

Well, I would suggest you read several of the comments in this thread because a bunch of them make very good points. Yes of course death is a possibility in the game of DnD. But making a single die roll that might result in a character dying is *not* going to be the exciting narrative moment I think some are imagining it to be. As others have pointed out, it also creates a somewhat thorny situation around making a new character and that character not having the benefits of the serum (while the rest of the party does). I think the likelihood this creates some friction and sour feelings at the table is pretty high.

[Kane0]

Bah, naysayers! Embrace the sudden and inevitable character death in pursuit of glory!
Blood for the blood god! Character sheets for the paper shredder!

[animorte]

Bah, naysayers! Embrace the sudden and inevitable character death in pursuit of glory!
Blood for the blood god! Character sheets for the paper shredder!

That's probably the first comment of yours that seems like it came directly from your avatar.

I mean, from what we've gathered thus far, the OP's table is all on board with what's going on, so the best we can do at this point is actually contribute to the request.

[MisterD]

Just the ability to heal all HP after a long rest will put them far beyond a normal NPC.

Are these enhanced people being compared to Adventurers of the same level? normal NPC guards / Veterans?

[Greywander]

Well, I would suggest you read several of the comments in this thread because a bunch of them make very good points. Yes of course death is a possibility in the game of DnD. But making a single die roll that might result in a character dying is *not* going to be the exciting narrative moment I think some are imagining it to be. As others have pointed out, it also creates a somewhat thorny situation around making a new character and that character not having the benefits of the serum (while the rest of the party does). I think the likelihood this creates some friction and sour feelings at the table is pretty high.
Again, it depends a lot on the style of game they're running. Final Fantasy is very different from Dark Souls, and a person who likes one might not like the other. Using the admittedly imperfect Gamist-Narrativist-Simulationist model, I'd say that both Gamist and Narrativist players would probably prefer not to have RNG death.

Gamists don't want it because there's no strategy, no way to improve their odds of success or mitigate downsides. You just roll the die and win or lose, there's no skill or tactical decision making involved. It's also not really a choice; winning the roll makes you stronger, and the odds are in your favor, so you must try it. To not do so is suboptimal. And then if not everyone succeeds then there's a power gap between players, which feels unfair. Remember, Gamists are all about mastery of the rules of the Game, so if one player has an unfair advantage then their comparative performance is no longer representative of their level of mastery of the rules. It might not be a competition, but it still feels bad to feel like you're dead weight on the team.

A Narrativist would be perfectly happy with the transformation being a plot point with no actual mechanical effect, so a roll to not die wouldn't even make sense. Narrativists are also loathe to let such a critical element of the plot ride on a single die roll. What one might call a "radical" Narrativist would probably rather be doing free-form roleplay with no rules, though those people probably don't play as much D&D. My point is, it is inevitable that sooner or later a dice roll is going to get in the way of the story the players or the DM are trying to tell, and those who opt to override the dice roll and proceed as planned probably lean Narrativist.

Then there's the Simulationist. To them, it makes perfect sense to roll not to die. The procedure is supposed to be dangerous, and if it weren't, then everyone would do it. Whether a player decided to attempt the transformation is a calculated risk. In essence, the roll not to die is a simulation of the actual dangers involved in the transformation process, so of course it's going to jive with a Simulationist. Simulationists aren't really concerned with mastery of the rules, nor do they care much about preserving game balance. Likewise, they probably aren't as set on telling a particular story, and are happy to improvise when the dice yield an unexpected result. The Simulationist is, in effect, pretending that the fantasy world is a real place and that their character is a real person interacting with this world and expecting it to react as one would expect. It's not a story, and it's not a game, it's a simulation.

What I'm trying to say is that if you're approaching this from a narrative perspective, of course it's going to sound like a bad idea. But not everyone has that perspective of the game. Again, almost anything can fly at a table if it's been agreed upon ahead of time. There is no one universal right way to play, though there are some best practices. It's probably true that this deviates a bit from those best practices, but that's because it's been tailored for this specific table.


Are these enhanced people being compared to Adventurers of the same level? normal NPC guards / Veterans?
I'm curious about this as well. I just kind of assumed they were something like space marines. I mean, I guess "super soldier" is a pretty broad term, but it does definitely paint a certain picture. "Super soldier" definitely implies that they're not just in peak condition, but actually superhuman. That said, it's certainly true that regular PCs achieve superhuman ability at mid to high levels. It could certainly work to make these Venators into their own class that isn't actually any stronger than any other class, or maybe something like a fighter subclass. But that doesn't seem to be the route OP wants to go for.

[george moshingt]

Just the ability to heal all HP after a long rest will put them far beyond a normal NPC.

Are these enhanced people being compared to Adventurers of the same level? normal NPC guards / Veterans?

Yeah to clarify the vanator are super soldiers like space marines, witchers, Spartans.

Basically a venator is a super soldier in comparison to other adventurers, not npcs(afterall, all pcs are super in comparison to npcs)

So a 7th level venator > a 7th level adventurer for example.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

I don't know a ton of the other lore, but I am pretty familiar with old school 40k. If you wanted to riff on Space Marines then

Darkvision
Increase Size One Increment (usually to 'large')
Immune to Fear type effects
Can hold their breath for a very long time if necessary
Drop to 1 HP instead of 0 1/short rest, die on 5 failed death saves instead of 3
Immune to one or two tiers more severe environmental conditions than a regular human in your world
Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics (since straight up boosting strength and con, which would be realistic for a Space Marine might destabilize the game)
Acid spit attack
and one of my favorite old school tidbits that's rarely ever mentioned except very occasionally outside Blood Angels now-- eat an NPC or monster's brain to gain partial access to their memories. Could be like a speak with the dead type spell effect.

If they are rare and well known in the world, then I think a passive fear effect on most enemies would be reasonable.

Overall it depends on how high you want to crank the powerlevel. In universe, space marine transformation is something equivalent roughly to taking a commoner and giving them 250 HP, Str 18 Con 18 minimum, not just proficiency but something like expertise in all weapons, tripling or quadrupling all their physical speeds/distances, increasing their size to Large, and making them immune to a whole variety of things. I wouldn't really apply that level of transformation only as an option to the party, since the Space Marine guy is going to quickly overshadow everyone else.

A useful bit of ancient lore they should bring back, or remind people of, is that in-universe a regular game of 40k is supposed to represent 30-90 seconds of combat. Given the number of things a Space Marine can do in 30 seconds (Shoot what, 12 times, charge or fight in combat with multiple attacks 12 times, cast 6 or more spells, etc) an elegant solution that would work for pretty much all classes would be to just have them under the effects of the Haste Spell, permanently. Or give them the option to either always have Haste up or IDK Tensor's Transformation, something like that.

[animorte]

an elegant solution that would work for pretty much all classes would be to just have them under the effects of the Haste Spell, permanently.

That is terrifying and brilliant. I might use this myself.