Help choosing four 4th-level spells for wizard

[yisopo]

I'm a wizard and I'm planning which spells to take for the future. Right now I am undecided on the 4th-level spells.

Something useful to know: I'm a chronurgist wizard with the Lucky feat and the Silvery Barbs spell; I'm playing "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" + "The Rise of Tiamat" till level 15.

My idea is to take Summon Greater Demon and Watery Sphere because of the tactic and fun.

But what about the other two spells?

I'm thinking to take two spells from these threes: Polymorph, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Banishment. There are some intersections between theses ones...


Polymorph (Among the three, this one is my first choice.)
- Great: "Healing" + buffing an ally in trouble.
- Good: As save-and-suck spell, removing an enemy for 1 hour, but it is a Wisdom saving.
- Good: The party has 1 hour to prepare for its return and I can use my familiar to inflict falling damages.
- Good: Size insensitive.
- Good?: Can be used for scouting and other utilities, but I don't know how my DM will rule about the low Int.
- Bad: Concentration ends the spell so it is not a good idea to cast it on himself in combat.


Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
- Great: Self-protecting.
- Good: As save-and-suck spell, removing an enemy for 1 min, but it is a Dexterity saving.
- Good: As utility for protecting a person/object or if we want to pass through a deadly environment (lava, acid, ...). Very situational.
- So-so: Protecting alleys. For an ally in trouble I can use Vortex Wrap (lower slot) or Polymorph (higher slot but the ally stays useful in combat).
- Bad: The trapped enemy may self-buffing and self-healing.
- Bad: Size sensitive, useless against huge or gargantuam creatures.
- Bad: The globe can be picked up and moved by other creatures.

??? It is not totally clear to me what a creature inside ORS can do. Can they heal others, cast Hypnotic Pattern or Counterspell, teleport themself outside? And the opposite: can someone outside the sphere influence who is inside without damaging them?


Banishment
- Great: As save-and-suck spell, removing an enemy for 1 min, and it is a Charisma saving.
- Great: If the target is native to a different plane may be removed from the combat permanently.
- Good: If the target is native to the same plane is incapacitated while temporarily banished.
- Good: Size insensitive.
- So-so: As an emergency option to remove themself/allies from a dangerous place for 1 minute. Very very situational.
- Very bad: If the target is native to a different plane may return immediately if they have the ability to travel between planes.

[animorte]

You’re already going in the right direction as polymorph and banishment are excellent decisions.

Some personal
I do really like otiluke’s resilient sphere and dimension door personally, neither of which is necessarily encounter ending though. Maybe I’m just selfish, but then I’ve never cared to play a Wizard. :smalltongue:

[Bobthewizard]

As you pick your spells, keep in mind your preparation limit. There is no reason to pick extra spells that you are never going to prepare. At levels 7-8, you get 2, maybe 3, preparations. So for the other 1-2, I'd go back and pick up some rituals - Leomunds tiny hut, water breathing, and phantom steed. Rituals are definitely important as a wizard.

For level 4 spells, I usually take dimension door and one of polymorph, banishment or oitlukes sphere. I also love Raulothims psychic lance for a non-concentration debuff.

[Digimike]

Watery Sphere is a great choice.

Not sure I understand the appeal of Summon greater demon. It's concentration and prone to breaking. Summon elemental or summon construct are far more reliable.

I'm always a fan of greater invisibility. Great to protect and give an ally advantage continuously in most situations.

Also consider confusion, can trivialize encounters, and if your party has another controller sickening radiance may be the most devastating damage spell in the game if you can keep baddies inside.

[yisopo]

I do really like otiluke’s resilient sphere and dimension door personally, neither of which is necessarily encounter ending though. Maybe I’m just selfish, but then I’ve never cared to play a Wizard. :smalltongue:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
I didn't propose Dimension Door in my opening post because I already have Misty Step and Vortex Wrap. Don't you think it is redundant to have Dimension Door too?



As you pick your spells, keep in mind your preparation limit. There is no reason to pick extra spells that you are never going to prepare. At levels 7-8, you get 2, maybe 3, preparations. So for the other 1-2, I'd go back and pick up some rituals - Leomunds tiny hut, water breathing, and phantom steed. Rituals are definitely important as a wizard.

At level 3 I will take Phantom Steed (with Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell and Slow). I think it is a great spell.


For level 4 spells, I usually take dimension door and one of polymorph, banishment or oitlukes sphere.
Do you think taking two spells from Polymorph, Banishment or Oitlukes Sphere is too much redundant?


I also love Raulothims psychic lance for a non-concentration debuff.
This observation made me ponder a lot. All the 4th-level spells I want to take are concentration-based. This may be a big problem.
I previously discarded Raulothims Psychic Lance because I'm not a fan of blasting spells in general, and not a fan of this particular spell in particular. But maybe I need a concentrarion-free spell too! Vitriolic Sphere vs Raulothim's Psychic Lance?


Watery Sphere is a great choice.
I'm really looking forward to try it! :smallsmile:


Not sure I understand the appeal of Summon greater demon. It's concentration and prone to breaking. Summon elemental or summon construct are far more reliable.
Summen Elemental and Summon Construct are far more reliable but even far weaker. Summon Greater Demon is stronger. And if I choose a demon with -1 Cha (with a good positioning), the spell becomes reliable. :smallbiggrin:


I'm always a fan of greater invisibility. Great to protect and give an ally advantage continuously in most situations.
I don't know why, but I feel this spell boring (and it is another concentration spell!). But I will ponder more about it.


Also consider confusion, can trivialize encounters
I don't like it. I think is unpredictable/unreliable, moreover it is weaker than Hypnotic Patter.


and if your party has another controller sickening radiance may be the most devastating damage spell in the game if you can keep baddies inside.
I have a peace cleric in my party. Do you think the cleric has some spells for synergizing with Sickening Radiance?

[animorte]

I didn't propose Dimension Door in my opening post because I already have Misty Step and Vortex Wrap. Don't you think it is redundant to have Dimension Door too?


I can’t be expected to make that educated guess since you didn’t provide that information first, so I’m not sure where this is coming from? :smallconfused:

Anyway… while both of those are good and useful, the range of dimension door is far superior and you can take an ally with you if needed. I’m not sure what the rest of your party looks like though to determine whether or not any of them could benefit from it.

[Bobthewizard]

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
I didn't propose Dimension Door in my opening post because I already have Misty Step and Vortex Wrap. Don't you think it is redundant to have Dimension Door too?

Yes. Once 4th level spells get to be less valuable, though, I like to change out misty step for dimension door. At levels 8-10, you can keep either one.


Do you think taking two spells from Polymorph, Banishment or Oitlukes Sphere is too much redundant?

Yes. But, you can make an argument for taking banishment now even though you aren't preparing it. At levels 8-12 or so, polymorph is better for the T-rex-a-party-member buff. As you level up, that becomes less powerful, and banishment gets better as you can upcast it. If you are taking polymorph now, I would wait and pick up banishment at level 14 or so. You won't need 4 7th level spells in your spellbook, so you can pick that up then.

But any of the three are a good single save or remove one target from the battle, and are very useful in those fights against 3-4 medium power enemies, so I usually pick whichever one fits the character best.


This observation made me ponder a lot. All the 4th-level spells I want to take are concentration-based. This may be a big problem.
I previously discarded Raulothims Psychic Lance because I'm not a fan of blasting spells in general, and not a fan of this particular spell in particular. But maybe I need a concentrarion-free spell too! Vitriolic Sphere vs Raulothim's Psychic Lance?

Concentration is definitely a bigger restriction than spell preparations or spell slots. I like psychic lance for the incapacitated condition, not the damage. A 4th level slot is a bit expensive for it now, but by level 11, it's a great option to have. I like fireball better than vitriolic sphere since it does all its damage upfront, but I don't cast pure damaging spells all that often.

I also like to get Command from Fey touched for a nonconcentration debuff use of my level 1-3 slots.

[yisopo]

I can’t be expected to make that educated guess since you didn’t provide that information first, so I’m not sure where this is coming from? :smallconfused:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Anyway… while both of those are good and useful, the range of dimension door is far superior and you can take an ally with you if needed. I’m not sure what the rest of your party looks like though to determine whether or not any of them could benefit from it.
Here the rest of the party:
- Peace Cleric
- Shadow Monk + Eladrin Teleportation
- Eldritch Knight + Fey Touch Teleportation


Yes. Once 4th level spells get to be less valuable, though, I like to change out misty step for dimension door. At levels 8-10, you can keep either one.
[...]
Yes. But, you can make an argument for taking banishment now even though you aren't preparing it. At levels 8-12 or so, polymorph is better for the T-rex-a-party-member buff. As you level up, that becomes less powerful, and banishment gets better as you can upcast it. If you are taking polymorph now, I would wait and pick up banishment at level 14 or so. You won't need 4 7th level spells in your spellbook, so you can pick that up then.

But any of the three are a good single save or remove one target from the battle, and are very useful in those fights against 3-4 medium power enemies, so I usually pick whichever one fits the character best.
[...]
Concentration is definitely a bigger restriction than spell preparations or spell slots. I like psychic lance for the incapacitated condition, not the damage. A 4th level slot is a bit expensive for it now, but by level 11, it's a great option to have. I like fireball better than vitriolic sphere since it does all its damage upfront, but I don't cast pure damaging spells all that often.

Very interesting thoughts, thank you. Based on them, here what I decided (for now):
- Taking Polymorph and Summon Greater Demon at level 7.
- Taking Watery Sphere and Psychic Lance at level 8. As you said, Psychic Lance is great because it is concentration-free and the incapacity condition. But also being able to attack covered enemies if you know their name is situationally great.
- Taking Dimension Door at level 11+.
- Taking and Banishment at level 14 or 15 (15 will be the last level for my campaign).

What do you think?

But what about Otiluke's Resilient Sphere? Not necessary for my build? By the way, I still confused on how exactly ORS works (can I cast something outside? can they cast something inside?).


I also like to get Command from Fey touched for a nonconcentration debuff use of my level 1-3 slots.
I have a concentration-free debuff right from my subclass:

Momentary Stasis
When you reach 6th level, as an action, you can magically force a Large or smaller creature you can see within 60 feet of you to make a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. Unless the saving throw is a success, the creature is encased in a field of magical energy until the end of your next turn or until the creature takes any damage. While encased in this way, the creature is incapacitated and has a speed of 0.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

[animorte]

Here the rest of the party:
- Peace Cleric
- Shadow Monk + Eladrin Teleportation
- Eldritch Knight + Fey Touch Teleportation
Oh, well in that case, forget them they should be perfectly fine! :smalltongue: All have good survivability and mobility.


- Taking Watery Sphere and Psychic Lance at level 8. As you said, Psychic Lance is great because it is concentration-free and the incapacity condition. But also being able to attack covered enemies if you know their name is situationally great.
- Taking Dimension Door at level 11+.
- Taking and Banishment at level 14 or 15 (15 will be the last level for my campaign).

What do you think?
That looks perfect to me. Do it!
I also like psychic lance, by the way.


But what about Otiluke's Resilient Sphere? Not necessary for my build? By the way, I still confused on how exactly ORS works (can I cast something outside? can they cast something inside?).

Bottom line: Nothing can pass through the barrier, in or out. It’s concentration and can lock off a baddie if needed (Dex save), but I prefer to use it as an epic defense for yourself or an ally in desperate need of it.

I would imagine whoever in it could still buff or heal themselves with an effect that can’t escape the sphere.

[Digimike]

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
I have a peace cleric in my party. Do you think the cleric has some spells for synergizing with Sickening Radiance?

Pretty sure clerics get the Hold Person. That's the most obvious but only works on humanoids. There's also Blade Barrier at higher level too. There's also Turn undead.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the cleric synergizing though.

1. A tank with sentinel at the edge can hold a baddie in it. This has worked devastatingly well at my table.
2. Rogues can use wands at the appropriate level A wand with grease or fear can be used. (Requires positioning correctly so that "can't approach" blocks them in with fear. Rogues can use scrolls too lots of options there.
3. There's also oil of slipperiness that anyone can use for a grease effect.
4. A wind fan can be fun blowing baddies around. Anyone can use those.
5. Don't forget nets and caltrops. Yes they kinda suck with the low dc but again, anyone can use them. Even you before or after you drop radiance.

Plus you can catapult nets at further range 60' for 3d8 damage with a dc10 save or be restrained rider effect 😀

[Psyche]

Summon greater Demon isn't great. I would take summon aberration (or construct) instead, but it is your choice.

[KorvinStarmast]

Polymorph and Banishment are useful in a wide variety of ways, as concentration spells.

DD: non concentration, take an ally with you. Never been sad to take that spell. I can see why you'd delay it since you use misty step already.

The psychic lance I like as a spell with a rider, but I tend towards spells that support and let my cantrips handle damage if need be. YMMV.

My other suggestion is greater invisibility.

The suggestion for a summons that isn't a demon was a good one, and I'd suggest construct. Look at all of the immunities to conditions.
Construct Spirit

Medium construct, —
Armor Class 13 + the level of the spell (natural armor) (17)
Hit Points 40 + 15 for each spell level above 4th (55 at your current level)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 18 (4) DEX 10 (0) CON 18 (4) INT 14 (2) WIS 11 (0) CHA 5 (-3)
Damage Resistance poison
Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion, frightened, incapacitated, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages understands the languages you speak
Heated Body (Metal Only). A creature that touches the construct or hits it with a melee attack while within 5 feet of it takes 1d10 fire damage.
Stony Lethargy (Stone Only). When a creature the construct can see starts its turn within 10 feet of the construct, the construct can force it to make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the target can’t use reactions and its speed is halved until the start of its next turn.
Actions
Multiattack. The construct makes a number of attacks equal to half this spell’s level (rounded down). (2)
Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (1d8+4) bludgeoning damage. +the spell's level (4)
That damage is better than a cantrip; it's 1d8+8 on a hit, but it's not magical damage as far as I can tell. if you hit twice that's 2d8+16. Nice. :smallsmile:
Reactions
Berserk Lashing (Clay Only). When the construct takes damage, it makes a slam attack against a random creature within 5 feet of it. If no creature is within reach, the construct moves up to half its speed toward an enemy it can see, without provoking opportunity attacks. It's a nice package and it gives your enemy one more thing to worry about.

[sithlordnergal]

Here are a few of my favorite Wizard spells:

Confusion

One of my favorite Enchantment spells, partially due to the fact that it works on everything. It doesn't have the caveat of not effecting creatures immune to being Charmed. Additionally, it removes a creature's reaction, and there's a good chance that whatever you Confused will end up wasting their turn. Finally, this spell basically denies all actions from an enemy unless they roll a 9-10. Even if they roll a 7-8, they can only make one melee attack against a random creature.

Only downside is that creatures get to remake the save every round.


Resilient Sphere

One of the best defensive spells in the game, outside of the spell that gives you immunity to all attacks and Forcecage. It also has a lot of special utility as well. First, its one of the few spells that can be used on Objects, second its one of the few spells where you can choose to let it affect you, third its a ranged spell so you can target other creatures and objects. Something to note is that the sphere becomes weightless, and it specifically states that the sphere can be picked up and moved. So you could probably use it to pick up a Large or smaller object, even if you normally couldn't.

Only downside is that it lasts for 1 minute, and you can only target one creature/object at a time


Polymorph

You already have this on your list, I don't need to go more in depth


Storm Sphere

So, I love this spell for longer fights, provided you have a free Bonus Action. This spell only really has two parts that are amazing. The first is the range of this spell. It basically has a range of 210ft, since you can toss the Sphere down 150ft away, and target any creature within 60ft of the sphere with a bolt of Lightning. Second, it gives you a handy little Bonus Action attack that deals 4d6 Lightning damage. If you don't have any Bonus Actions to use, this is a nice way to get a little bit of extra damage in.

Downside is that the actual sphere is useless. It only deals 2d6 damage if an enemy ends their turn in it, its a Strength save that deals no damage on a save, and all it does is give disadvantage on Perception checks.

While this won't do anything with your current wizard, this spell is perfect for an Order of Scribes Wizard, since it lets you turn all your 4th level spells into Magical Bludgeoning, and you can use the Bonus Action Attack with the Crusher feat.


Summon Greater Demon

If anyone tells you this spell is bad, ignore them. They either don't know what they're talking about, or don't know how to use it properly. Additionally, if you're using this the same way you'd use Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals, or Summon Aberration, you are using it wrong. This is not a spell that brings in an ally you control, it brings in a berserker to toss at your enemies. Let me give you the pros:

- Its 1 Action to cast

- You get to choose the Demon, not the DM. The spell specifically states "You choose the demon’s type, which must be one of challenge rating 5 or lower", meaning you can bring in whatever Demon best fits the situation

- The spell specifically states the Demon will focus on the nearest non-Demons first, "the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability".

- It stays around for a few rounds when your Concentration ends, and unlike Conjure Elemental it does not specifically become hostile to you or your companions.

What does all this mean? Well, its pretty simple. You drop a Demon behind enemy lines, drop Concentration on it, and now the enemy has to deal with a CR 5 Demon of your choice for 1d6 rounds while you Concentrate on something else. Because its not specifically hostile towards you or your companions, and because it goes after non-Demons first, that Demon should be focusing on the enemies instead of trying to get to you, as specified by the spell itself. It doesn't even have a Material component to worry about. The vial of blood isn't actually consumed by the spell unless you want it to be, so you can use a spell casting focus to cast it.


Wall of Fire

Its a pretty handy control spell if you need to make a dangerous barrier. It also blocks line of sight, which is always handy. You can also decide which side of the wall hurts creatures, so you can use it to help defend an area. Put it in front of a door, then put your resident tank right next to the wall. If enemies wanna get through, they gotta deal with constant Fire damage while trying to push past the tank


------

You'll notice I don't have Banishment on this list, that's because I'm not a fan of Banishment. Its great if you're dealing with creatures that aren't native to the plane you're on, but that's about it. It doesn't actually solve any of your issues, it just temporarily shunts them out of the fight, and they come back after 1 minute or if you lose Concentration. Plus its a save or suck spell, it doesn't do anything if the creature succeeds on the save. This is generally a spell you'd use on a boss to get a moment of breathing room, but most bosses you use it on will succeed on the saving throw. Its kind of like Disintegrate in that way. Great spell, but because its a Save or Suck, you don't get to use it on the creature you really want to unless the stars align.

Use Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead. It has the same end result as Banishment, namely taking one enemy out of combat for 1 minute, is a 1st level spell, and works on practically everything.


Also, don't waste your time on Watery Sphere. It only effects Large or smaller targets, is a Strength save, and all it does is Restrain the creature. Yes, I know the dream is to catch and drown a foe, but that's never gonna happen. They get to make too many saves, and you will lost Concentration first.


EDIT: I completely skipped one of my newest favorite spells

Raulothim's Psychic Lance

Do not sleep on this!! This is an Int save, which most creatures have a low Int, deals decent damage, is a great damage type, has a fine range, non-oncentration, has a neat little secondary thing that lets you target a creature if you know their name, and if the creature fails the save they are Incapacitated. Do you know how few creatures are immune to being Incapacitated? I want to say two. There is literally no downside to casting this spell, ever.

[tiornys]

Summon Greater Demon

If anyone tells you this spell is bad, ignore them. They either don't know what they're talking about, or don't know how to use it properly. Additionally, if you're using this the same way you'd use Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals, or Summon Aberration, you are using it wrong. This is not a spell that brings in an ally you control, it brings in a berserker to toss at your enemies. Let me give you the pros:

- Its 1 Action to cast

- You get to choose the Demon, not the DM. The spell specifically states "You choose the demon’s type, which must be one of challenge rating 5 or lower", meaning you can bring in whatever Demon best fits the situation

- The spell specifically states the Demon will focus on the nearest non-Demons first, "the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability".

- It stays around for a few rounds when your Concentration ends, and unlike Conjure Elemental it does not specifically become hostile to you or your companions.

What does all this mean? Well, its pretty simple. You drop a Demon behind enemy lines, drop Concentration on it, and now the enemy has to deal with a CR 5 Demon of your choice for 1d6 rounds while you Concentrate on something else. Because its not specifically hostile towards you or your companions, and because it goes after non-Demons first, that Demon should be focusing on the enemies instead of trying to get to you, as specified by the spell itself. It doesn't even have a Material component to worry about. The vial of blood isn't actually consumed by the spell unless you want it to be, so you can use a spell casting focus to cast it.
Small quibble since I mostly agree with your analysis, but you can't deliberately drop concentration on this spell while having the demon stick around. Basically the demon has two modes: controlled and uncontrolled. While controlled it does what you command, or attacks something nearby that had attacked it if you don't give it a command. If the spell ends while the demon is controlled, including by your voluntarily dropping concentration, the demon disappears. Only if/when the demon makes its save does it become uncontrolled. While uncontrolled, the demon acts as you describe: it pursues and attacks the nearest non-demons for as long as you keep the spell up plus 1d6 additional rounds.

With a high enough save DC and a low Charisma demon, it's feasible to control it through multiple fights. In most cases you'd plan to use it for one fight; if it makes its save during the fight you can drop concentration and just be sure to keep enemies closer to it than it is to your party, otherwise you can drop concentration to get rid of it before it breaks free.

[sithlordnergal]

Small quibble since I mostly agree with your analysis, but you can't deliberately drop concentration on this spell while having the demon stick around. Basically the demon has two modes: controlled and uncontrolled. While controlled it does what you command, or attacks something nearby that had attacked it if you don't give it a command. If the spell ends while the demon is controlled, including by your voluntarily dropping concentration, the demon disappears. Only if/when the demon makes its save does it become uncontrolled. While uncontrolled, the demon acts as you describe: it pursues and attacks the nearest non-demons for as long as you keep the spell up plus 1d6 additional rounds.

With a high enough save DC and a low Charisma demon, it's feasible to control it through multiple fights. In most cases you'd plan to use it for one fight; if it makes its save during the fight you can drop concentration and just be sure to keep enemies closer to it than it is to your party, otherwise you can drop concentration to get rid of it before it breaks free.

Interesting, I and all my other DMs have interpreted it to mean it remains for 1d6 rounds as an uncontrolled Demon. Though your interpretation honestly doesn't change too much of my analysis. It simply becomes similar to a Conjure Elemental spell, with the added benefit of you getting to choose what's summoned and it only taking an action to cast, so you don't have to precast it before an encounter. But yeah, as long as you have an enemy between it and you, its a great way to get some support.

[Kane0]

Banishment, Polymorph, Psychic Lance. Two concentration and one not, targeting three different saves.
For the last one, Imp Invis or an AoE like Sickening Radiance or Black Tentacles. Maybe a summon with good options like Aberration if you know you can leverage them against the foes you'll be facing (dragons and cultists in your case)

[Gignere]

One other consideration is that banishment is on the cleric’s list too. Given the paucity of good 4th level cleric spells, banishment is a common prep for nearly all the clerics I’ve played with. Having one banishment is typically very good for the party but having two players with it is not.

I think sickening radiance is a good pick as well because of the damage type and if the dungeon allows it you can have someone open the door you ready to cast SR and then hold or otherwise bar the door and just wait until everything is dead inside. Like having the 20 strength barbarian holding the door shut.

I’ve seen that used to great effect and basically ez mode a few triple deadlies without breaking a sweat.

[tiornys]

Interesting, I and all my other DMs have interpreted it to mean it remains for 1d6 rounds as an uncontrolled Demon.
I think that's an incorrect reading, but a very understandable one because the correct interpretation requires some careful parsing and some inference. The key phrase is this: "If you stop concentrating on the spell before it reaches its full duration, an uncontrolled demon doesn't disappear for 1d6 rounds if it still has hit points." Note that this only sets up a specific exception for what happens to an uncontrolled demon.

Earlier in the paragraph, the spell told you how a demon could become uncontrolled: "At the end of each of the demon's turns, it makes a Charisma saving throw.... On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration." By inference the demon is controlled as long as it has not made a successful end of turn saving throw.

What, then, happens to a controlled demon when you stop concentrating on the spell? Since the spell offers no specific exception clause for this way of ending the spell, we revert to what happens when the spell ends, described in the first paragraph of the spell's rules text: "the demon disappears... when the spell ends." There is no difference amongst the various ways the spell can end when the demon is not uncontrolled.

[yisopo]

That looks perfect to me. Do it!
I also like psychic lance, by the way.
Great! :-)



Bottom line: Nothing can pass through the barrier, in or out. It’s concentration and can lock off a baddie if needed (Dex save), but I prefer to use it as an epic defense for yourself or an ally in desperate need of it.
Got it. Thanks.


Pretty sure clerics get the Hold Person. That's the most obvious but only works on humanoids. There's also Blade Barrier at higher level too. There's also Turn undead.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the cleric synergizing though.

1. A tank with sentinel at the edge can hold a baddie in it. This has worked devastatingly well at my table.
2. Rogues can use wands at the appropriate level A wand with grease or fear can be used. (Requires positioning correctly so that "can't approach" blocks them in with fear. Rogues can use scrolls too lots of options there.
3. There's also oil of slipperiness that anyone can use for a grease effect.
4. A wind fan can be fun blowing baddies around. Anyone can use those.
5. Don't forget nets and caltrops. Yes they kinda suck with the low dc but again, anyone can use them. Even you before or after you drop radiance.

Plus you can catapult nets at further range 60' for 3d8 damage with a dc10 save or be restrained rider effect 😀
The problem with this strategy are: "The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends" and "Constitution saving throw". So if I cast this spell I want to have a good probability to keep the enemies there for many many turns. Anyway, as I wrote, I'm a chronurgy wizard, so I will get Arcane Abeyance at level 10: therefore I can wait to get Sickening Radiance till level 10. :-)


Summon greater Demon isn't great. I would take summon aberration (or construct) instead, but it is your choice.
Why? To me, Summon Greater Demon looks the best by far.


Polymorph and Banishment are useful in a wide variety of ways, as concentration spells.

DD: non concentration, take an ally with you. Never been sad to take that spell. I can see why you'd delay it since you use misty step already.

The psychic lance I like as a spell with a rider, but I tend towards spells that support and let my cantrips handle damage if need be. YMMV.

My other suggestion is greater invisibility.
Tough decisions! Thanks for the input. ;-)


The suggestion for a summons that isn't a demon was a good one, and I'd suggest construct. Look at all of the immunities to conditions.
Construct Spirit
It's a nice package and it gives your enemy one more thing to worry about.
As wrote, I don't understand why constructs are better than greater demons.

[yisopo]

Here are a few of my favorite Wizard spells:

Confusion

One of my favorite Enchantment spells, partially due to the fact that it works on everything. It doesn't have the caveat of not effecting creatures immune to being Charmed. Additionally, it removes a creature's reaction, and there's a good chance that whatever you Confused will end up wasting their turn. Finally, this spell basically denies all actions from an enemy unless they roll a 9-10. Even if they roll a 7-8, they can only make one melee attack against a random creature.

Only downside is that creatures get to remake the save every round.
To me, it is difficult to justify taking Confusion when I already have Hypnotic Pattern and Slow.




Summon Greater Demon [...]
Even with the "revised" interpretation, I agree this spell is great from a mechanical point of view, and for the flavour too!



You'll notice I don't have Banishment on this list, that's because I'm not a fan of Banishment. Its great if you're dealing with creatures that aren't native to the plane you're on, but that's about it. It doesn't actually solve any of your issues, it just temporarily shunts them out of the fight, and they come back after 1 minute or if you lose Concentration. Plus its a save or suck spell, it doesn't do anything if the creature succeeds on the save. This is generally a spell you'd use on a boss to get a moment of breathing room, but most bosses you use it on will succeed on the saving throw. Its kind of like Disintegrate in that way. Great spell, but because its a Save or Suck, you don't get to use it on the creature you really want to unless the stars align.

Use Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead. It has the same end result as Banishment, namely taking one enemy out of combat for 1 minute, is a 1st level spell, and works on practically everything.
Hideous Laughter grants a Wis saving throw at the end of each turn, so not so good as Banishment. But for the rest, I can agree with you.



Also, don't waste your time on Watery Sphere. It only effects Large or smaller targets, is a Strength save, and all it does is Restrain the creature. Yes, I know the dream is to catch and drown a foe, but that's never gonna happen. They get to make too many saves, and you will lost Concentration first.
I have to ponder more about this spell, you put doubts in my mind. :-)

Ideally I would trap 4 medium creatures. And if someone succeeds with the saves, I can move the sphere and get him again. Plus, I love the idea to move enemies around the battlefield.

Moreover, my DM will use the old version (10-foot radius instead of 5-foot). So with a maximum of 16 squares/enemies. Do you think it is not worth even in this version?



EDIT: I completely skipped one of my newest favorite spells

Raulothim's Psychic Lance

Do not sleep on this!! This is an Int save, which most creatures have a low Int, deals decent damage, is a great damage type, has a fine range, non-oncentration, has a neat little secondary thing that lets you target a creature if you know their name, and if the creature fails the save they are Incapacitated. Do you know how few creatures are immune to being Incapacitated? I want to say two. There is literally no downside to casting this spell, ever.
Before this thread I totally skipped on Psychic Lance, but now I can see it is a great non-concetration spell!


For the last one, Imp Invis or an AoE like Sickening Radiance or Black Tentacles.
Why Black Tentacles? I wish I like it more, but it is quite redundant with Web. And I already have Web since it is a great spell and two level lower!


One other consideration is that banishment is on the cleric’s list too. Given the paucity of good 4th level cleric spells, banishment is a common prep for nearly all the clerics I’ve played with. Having one banishment is typically very good for the party but having two players with it is not.
I didn't notice clerics have Banisment too. Great info, this definitively solve my problem: absolutely no need to take Banishment for me too. Thank you. ;-)


I think sickening radiance is a good pick [...]
As written to Digimik, I cannot see this spell as good without the microwave strategy.

[tiornys]

Why Black Tentacles? I wish I like it more, but it is quite redundant with Web. And I already have Web since it is a great spell and two level lower!
How much forced movement does your party have? If there's a decent amount, then Black Tentacles has a major advantage over Web: when you push a creature into Black Tentacles it needs to make a save immediately, and if it passes that save it needs to make another one at the start of its turn (and if it fails the initial save it takes 6d6 damage before it can even try to escape). A creature pushed into Web doesn't have to make a save until the start of its turn. With that advantage on top of its being a mini-microwave on its own, Black Tentacles can be worth taking in addition to Web. With minimal forced movement, the damage over time alone probably isn't worth the 2 level gap.

[KorvinStarmast]

Great! :-) As wrote, I don't understand why constructs are better than greater demons. I think it's better due to two damage immunities, and, immune to a great many conditions. A lot of monsters inflict conditions, and if there are enemy spell casters a goodly number of spells do also. Being immune to those conditions means that your construct just keeps on doing its thing. :smallsmile:

[yisopo]

How much forced movement does your party have? If there's a decent amount, then Black Tentacles has a major advantage over Web: when you push a creature into Black Tentacles it needs to make a save immediately, and if it passes that save it needs to make another one at the start of its turn (and if it fails the initial save it takes 6d6 damage before it can even try to escape). A creature pushed into Web doesn't have to make a save until the start of its turn. With that advantage on top of its being a mini-microwave on its own, Black Tentacles can be worth taking in addition to Web. With minimal forced movement, the damage over time alone probably isn't worth the 2 level gap.
It makes sense. Unfortunately my party has very limited forced movement.


I think it's better due to two damage immunities, and, immune to a great many conditions. A lot of monsters inflict conditions, and if there are enemy spell casters a goodly number of spells do also. Being immune to those conditions means that your construct just keeps on doing its thing. :smallsmile:
Maybe only Shadow Demon and Dybbuk have many damage/condition immunities. But the great thing of Summon Greater Demon is that demons are very versatile and powerfull having spellcasting abilities. Moreover, they can have magic resistance and magical attacks! But, ultimately, I think I will enjoy to use them more because they are very versatile and so they give me more options. I'm playing a wizard precisely because I love options. :-)