Path of the Beast - Dual wielding

[Blackflight]

Going through potential builds for a new character I stumbled across the path of the beast Barbarian, which got me thinking how its level 3 ability "Form of the Beast" Claw attack interacts with Two-weapon fighting.

Regarding Claws, it says in Tasha's Cauldron for everything that your hands/claws count as weapons if they are empty, in which case they count as simple weapons.


1) Since they are not light weapon, my question is if you can use two-weapon fighting with the dual wielder feat. The Dual wielder feat has the wording that you must be wielding the weapon in question, which leaves something open for interpretation? You could argue that your hands are empty and therefore it doesnt work. You could also argue that empty hands are worded as being weapons, therefore you are wielding a weapon. I dont know exactly how to interpret the RAW or how the rules were intended. Would you allow Claws to engage in two-weapon fighting if you have the dual-wielder feat?


2) Regardless of having the Dual wielder feat is it possible to engage in Two-weapon fighting from lvl 5 onwards when you get the extra attack feature? From what I can see the extra attack from claws only require that you make 1 or more claw attacks to proc the extra claw attack. Similarily, the two-weapon fighting rule states that you need to wield two light weapons and make an attack to use your bonus action to make an additional attack. From what I can see it doesnt specify that all your attacks have to be made with two light weapons. Would the following work (without the dual wieldier feat)

Turn 1:
- Bonus action activate rage
- Draw a handaxe
- Attack with Claw (1st standard attack)
- Use extra claw attack
- Attack with handaxe (2nd standard attack)

Turn 2:
- Attack with Claw (1st standard attack)
- Use extra claw attack
- Draw 2nd handaxe
- Attack with handaxe (2nd standard attack)
- Bonus attack with handaxe (Two-weapon fighting)

Turn 3:
- Attack with handaxe (1st standard attack)
- Bonus attack with handaxe (Two-weapon fighting)
- Stow your one handaxe
- Attack with Claw (2nd standard attack)
- Use extra claw attack

Repeat the cycle from Turn 2 and 3 until fight is over

[Zhorn]

The forum's search function is your friend

Sounds like someone's playing my song :smallbiggrin:

@OP
I have the full breakdown of how the rules for this whole sequence works in an older thread here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24915499&postcount=8)

but the TL;DR sequence is as follows;
For sustainability each round, we need our starting and ending condition to always be the same.
Assuming no feats, start each round with a light melee weapon in each hand (also assuming you are already raging at this point with claws)

Step 1: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2: Attack Action with claw
Step 3: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our starting state.
4 Attacks with a level 5 Path of the Beast Barbarian, all 100% RAW compliant and supported without feats.

again, go to the provided link for all the sighted rules interactions and clarifications.
The order is a precise sequence to pull off, so it doesn't offer much flexibility

[Psyren]

There are some alternative ways to get a bonus action attack with Path of the Beast:

1) Use a 3-level Soulknife dip - your hands are empty while clawing, so you should have no trouble manifesting your blades as part of the attack action you use on your claws, for a sequence of Claw-Claw-manifest-Stab-Stab, 4 attacks at level 6. Colby from d4 Deep Dives did a detailed build (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkHVz2rQAS4) that uses this combo. (Remember that the Psychic Blades, like all finesse weapons, can still be used with Strength.)

2) Get a bonus action attack another way, e.g. via a racial. (Longtooth Shifter is good for this, as their bonus action to shift can also be used to attack.) The big downside here is that your bonus Bite is not technically one of your Beast weapons so it won't benefit from Bestial Soul, but most DMs I've played with let Bestial Soul apply to it anyway, so check with yours.

The big downside to bonus action attacking on a Beast Barbarian is that it conflicts with your rage on the first round - but you don't really need to go all out unless it's a big fight anyway, and if it is, then the fight is likely to last long enough to be worth it anyway.

[Blackflight]

Thank you for the replies!

So basically there is nothing wrong with weaving in two weapon fighting inbetween claw attacks from lvl 5 onwards I see :) If you are dual wielding handaxes I suppose you could even mix in some thrown weapon attacks to empty your hands and make way for claw attacks. This would actually make a very dynamic and fun character to play in combat.

How would you build this character? Add Slasher feat to make your numerous attacks increase the odds of a critical hit that gives your opponent disadvantage on attacks rolls?

[Kane0]

Thank you for the replies!

So basically there is nothing wrong with weaving in two weapon fighting inbetween claw attacks from lvl 5 onwards I see :) If you are dual wielding handaxes I suppose you could even mix in some thrown weapon attacks to empty your hands and make way for claw attacks. This would actually make a very dynamic and fun character to play in combat.

How would you build this character? Add Slasher feat to make your numerous attacks increase the odds of a critical hit that gives your opponent disadvantage on attacks rolls?

I'd go with Crusher and light hammers myself, mostly for style but slasher with handaxes is probably more efficient

[Rukelnikov]

Going through potential builds for a new character I stumbled across the path of the beast Barbarian, which got me thinking how its level 3 ability "Form of the Beast" Claw attack interacts with Two-weapon fighting.

Regarding Claws, it says in Tasha's Cauldron for everything that your hands/claws count as weapons if they are empty, in which case they count as simple weapons.


1) Since they are not light weapon, my question is if you can use two-weapon fighting with the dual wielder feat. The Dual wielder feat has the wording that you must be wielding the weapon in question, which leaves something open for interpretation? You could argue that your hands are empty and therefore it doesnt work. You could also argue that empty hands are worded as being weapons, therefore you are wielding a weapon. I dont know exactly how to interpret the RAW or how the rules were intended. Would you allow Claws to engage in two-weapon fighting if you have the dual-wielder feat?


2) Regardless of having the Dual wielder feat is it possible to engage in Two-weapon fighting from lvl 5 onwards when you get the extra attack feature? From what I can see the extra attack from claws only require that you make 1 or more claw attacks to proc the extra claw attack. Similarily, the two-weapon fighting rule states that you need to wield two light weapons and make an attack to use your bonus action to make an additional attack. From what I can see it doesnt specify that all your attacks have to be made with two light weapons. Would the following work (without the dual wieldier feat)

Turn 1:
- Bonus action activate rage
- Draw a handaxe
- Attack with Claw (1st standard attack)
- Use extra claw attack
- Attack with handaxe (2nd standard attack)

Turn 2:
- Attack with Claw (1st standard attack)
- Use extra claw attack
- Draw 2nd handaxe
- Attack with handaxe (2nd standard attack)
- Bonus attack with handaxe (Two-weapon fighting)

Turn 3:
- Attack with handaxe (1st standard attack)
- Bonus attack with handaxe (Two-weapon fighting)
- Stow your one handaxe
- Attack with Claw (2nd standard attack)
- Use extra claw attack

Repeat the cycle from Turn 2 and 3 until fight is over

When I thorycrafted this, I did it a lil different, with the loop starting in round 2:

Level 5:

1st round:

BA - Rage
OI - Draw Handaxe
Action - Attack with Claw 2 times, attack with Handaxe once.


2nd and subsequent rounds:
Action - Attack with Claw 2 times
OI - Draw Handaxe
Extra Attack - Attack with Handaxe
BA- Throw Handaxe

You finish 2nd round exactly as you started it, the problem is you are unlikely to get half a dozen magical Handaxes, so your already weakish BA attack, is weaker still by not being made with a magical weapon, spendinga BA for 1d6+2 at lvl 5 is ok, though rather useless against resistant enemies, 1d6+3 at lvl 9 is not very good, and almost effectively useless against resistant enemies, further ahead is just plain useless.

[Blackflight]

I'd go with Crusher and light hammers myself, mostly for style but slasher with handaxes is probably more efficient

Crusher is a cool feat but I kinda feel like it has too many anti-synergies with a Barbarian. First of the Claw attack is slashing and secondly Barbarians already benefit from advantage through Reckless attack. Crusher, however, seems to be very cool on Fighters.

[Blackflight]

When I thorycrafted this, I did it a lil different, with the loop starting in round 2:

Level 5:

1st round:

BA - Rage
OI - Draw Handaxe
Action - Attack with Claw 2 times, attack with Handaxe once.


2nd and subsequent rounds:
Action - Attack with Claw 2 times
OI - Draw Handaxe
Extra Attack - Attack with Handaxe
BA- Throw Handaxe

You finish 2nd round exactly as you started it, the problem is you are unlikely to get half a dozen magical Handaxes, so your already weakish BA attack, is weaker still by not being made with a magical weapon, spendinga BA for 1d6+2 at lvl 5 is ok, though rather useless against resistant enemies, 1d6+3 at lvl 9 is not very good, and almost effectively useless against resistant enemies, further ahead is just plain useless.


True. Getting a lot of magical handaxes is difficult to acquire so maybe the throwing option wouldnt work at higher levels. I do see a lot of potential benefit to the extra attack from the Bonus action though. If you combine it with slasher you have a higher chance to proc its special effects.

Furthermore, I suppose that the optimized version of this build would be to add in some extra critical hit benefits. For instance half-orc savage attacks or even a multiclass dip into fighter (champion) for extra crit chance and for two-weapon fighting style. With reckless attacks and 4 attacks each round you should crit quite often.

I am thinking something along the lines of

Half-orc
Level 1-6 Barbarian (slasher at level 4)
Level 7-9 Fighter (champion)
Level 10-20 Barbarian (Brutal critical at lvl 12, 16 & 20)

With advantage on hits from reckless attacks and critting on 19s and 20s, the critical chance of each attack is 19%