What does a Succubus become

[Sigreid]

Ok this is a bit of an odd thread I'm trying to start so here's the setup. If you read the monster manual for succubus, it describes them as fiends, neither devil nor demon that focuses on lust. It also describes them as having an infinite emptiness inside of them. I'm going with the interpretation that for whatever reason the emptiness is Love is missing in them and they feel it and try to fill that void with lust and sex.

So the question I have been pondering is if a succubus were to somehow have that emptiness replaced with love, gaining the ability to feel and receive it; what would the succubus become? I don't think it would be a succubus anymore.

[Rukelnikov]

Ok this is a bit of an odd thread I'm trying to start so here's the setup. If you read the monster manual for succubus, it describes them as fiends, neither devil nor demon that focuses on lust. It also describes them as having an infinite emptiness inside of them. I'm going with the interpretation that for whatever reason the emptiness is Love is missing in them and they feel it and try to fill that void with lust and sex.

So the question I have been pondering is if a succubus were to somehow have that emptiness replaced with love, gaining the ability to feel and receive it; what would the succubus become? I don't think it would be a succubus anymore.

That's what the succubuss would make you think so you feel compassion for them and "I can fix her", no dude they just wanna steal your soul.

[Sigreid]

That's what the succubuss would make you think so you feel compassion for them and "I can fix her", no dude they just wanna steal your soul.

That's the normal occurrence, yes. But, what if?

[Millstone85]

If there is a celestial counterpart to the succubus, and that one is filled with love, I would take inspiration from the putto, aka the cupid, aka the baby cherub.

Might be fun to merge it with both the "Biblically accurate" cherub and the traditional NG outsider.

So now you have a guardinal with multiple heads and a bow of love. :smallbiggrin:

https://thinkaboutsuchthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Putti-Angel-versus-Cherub-Angel.jpg
Not that all risen succubi would necessarily become one.

[OldTrees1]

Ok this is a bit of an odd thread I'm trying to start so here's the setup. If you read the monster manual for succubus, it describes them as fiends, neither devil nor demon that focuses on lust. It also describes them as having an infinite emptiness inside of them. I'm going with the interpretation that for whatever reason the emptiness is Love is missing in them and they feel it and try to fill that void with lust and sex.

So the question I have been pondering is if a succubus were to somehow have that emptiness replaced with love, gaining the ability to feel and receive it; what would the succubus become? I don't think it would be a succubus anymore.

I think they would still be a succubus. There is no reason a succubus couldn't give love before. They just have an infinite appetite for being loved. Maybe love sates that appetite more than lust/sex does, but they are still the same being.

Consider Fall-From-Grace (https://torment.fandom.com/wiki/Fall-from-Grace), a LN Succubus that is the matron of the Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts. She can enter a loving relationship without risking some kind of body horror transformation. She just remains a Succubus (although that does make kissing complicated for the couple).


Personally I like it when physical changes are possible but not necessary when an outsider makes a large behavior or personality change. They might allow a physical change to draw attention to the behavior/personality change, or they can stay as there were.

[Sigreid]

Thinking about it, a few options occur to me.

1. The succubus becomes what is effectively a mortal fiend pact warlock without an actual pact, the awakening being a residue of their past.
2. The succubus become a mortal sorcerer
3. The succubus becomes just an ordinary mortal
4. The succubus is still a succubus in most respects but has become something new. I'm thinking replace the kiss with a 1 - 3 times per day healing kiss but with yandere tendencies
5. The succubus becomes a celestial or fey

The exact transformation may depend on what triggered the change.

[OldTrees1]

Thinking about it, a few options occur to me.

4. The succubus is still a succubus in most respects but has become something new. I'm thinking replace the kiss with a 1 - 3 times per day healing kiss but with yandere tendencies

The exact transformation may depend on what triggered the change.

I think this is a nice option to include. Having it depend on the trigger (and thus implying other possibilities might be possible) is also a good idea.

[lall]

I’d go with still a succubus, but NG. After they corrupt, they don’t kill the target. That would be mean and they are now kind/loving.

[DomesticHausCat]

I mean they're demons man. They're kinda irredeemable. But if a demon was to be redeemed via a dm's fiat, it would be his call to make them whatever he wanted them to be. Perhaps a less intimidating and evil looking demon? Like a tiefling if you will.

[Kane0]

An infinite positive feels emitter, a celestial that hunts down and converts succubi since they cant be harned by their powers. Instead of a draining touch/kiss they have a calm emotions aura

[Rafaelfras]

I think the more important bit is, there is a change of heart? Evil beings are capable of love, albeit not that much. They can love someone and hate everything else. Sometimes this love can lead to something better, but not always.

A succubus is a spiritual being, so the change has to be deep.
If there is a change of alignment I think it will be a succubus no more. There are stories when a outsider becomes a mortal. I just remembered the movie Constantine, where the angel Gabriel becomes a mortal by its end. So its not far fetched.
She can also become a angel, I am a fan of biblical angels, but going just D&D I think a Deva is appropriate, I would go with Eladrin if it was 3rd ed.

[TheBrassDuke]

I mean they're demons man. They're kinda irredeemable. But if a demon was to be redeemed via a dm's fiat, it would be his call to make them whatever he wanted them to be. Perhaps a less intimidating and evil looking demon? Like a tiefling if you will.

I direct everyone’s attention to Sepulchrave’s Tales of Wyre: “Lady Despina’s Virtue”

[Rafaelfras]

I direct everyone’s attention to Sepulchrave’s Tales of Wyre: “Lady Despina’s Virtue”

Thats the succubus paladin right?

[Amechra]

Imagine you have a hole in the ground, right? There's something there, defined by an absence of dirt.

If you fill that hole with dirt... you don't have a hole anymore. You don't have anything anymore.

By analogy, a Succubus whose infinite hunger for love is filled ceases to exist. They'll be around for a little bit, getting filled up with love... but one day, they just won't be there anymore.

Succubi, understandably, have very mixed feelings about love.

[Sigreid]

An infinite positive feels emitter, a celestial that hunts down and converts succubi since they cant be harned by their powers. Instead of a draining touch/kiss they have a calm emotions aura

One of the ways I could see it happening is a divine intervention success from a cleric of Sune, the Goddess of Love and Beauty.

[Zhorn]

That's what the succubuss would make you think so you feel compassion for them and "I can fix her", no dude they just wanna steal your soul.
New headcanon; the existence of such success stories of succubi finding true love and becoming 'cured' or 'good' are perpetuated by the fiends themselves to make their prey more likely to fall for their charms.
"Sure everyone knows the stories of these fiends acting towards evil ends. But this one is different. I can see it in how they see me, and what we share is real. They love me and I them. What we have is special."

[animorte]

New headcanon; the existence of such success stories of succubi finding true love and becoming 'cured' or 'good' are perpetuated by the fiends themselves to make their prey more likely to fall for their charms.

They wouldn't dare do this. Don't you talk about my crush that way. We're meant to be together!

[Rukelnikov]

New headcanon; the existence of such success stories of succubi finding true love and becoming 'cured' or 'good' are perpetuated by the fiends themselves to make their prey more likely to fall for their charms.

That's actually quite good!


Consider Fall-From-Grace (https://torment.fandom.com/wiki/Fall-from-Grace), a LN Succubus that is the matron of the Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts. She can enter a loving relationship without risking some kind of body horror transformation. She just remains a Succubus (although that does make kissing complicated for the couple).

Grace is a great example yeah.

There's another one in Wrath of the Righteous, Arueshelae, which I don't think is as well handled as Grace, but its still ok and relevant to the thread, her fate depends on players actions too, so you can see many outcomes for the scenario of the succubus gone good.

[Kane0]

New headcanon; the existence of such success stories of succubi finding true love and becoming 'cured' or 'good' are perpetuated by the fiends themselves to make their prey more likely to fall for their charms.
"Sure everyone knows the stories of these fiends acting towards evil ends. But this one is different. I can see it in how they see me, and what we share is real. They love me and I them. What we have is special."

Especially if theyre immortal, theyre probably jaded beyond all recognition to begin with anyways.

[Witty Username]

So the question I have been pondering is if a succubus were to somehow have that emptiness replaced with love, gaining the ability to feel and receive it; what would the succubus become? I don't think it would be a succubus anymore.

The only lore I know on this is that a succubus kiss that is truly motivated by love on part of the succubus will drain the target in reverse filling the target with Power, Desire and Hunger, turning them into a vampire.


New headcanon; the existence of such success stories of succubi finding true love and becoming 'cured' or 'good' are perpetuated by the fiends themselves to make their prey more likely to fall for their charms.
"Sure everyone knows the stories of these fiends acting towards evil ends. But this one is different. I can see it in how they see me, and what we share is real. They love me and I them. What we have is special."

Eh, I mean, if it is also fiendish propaganda that Celestial creatures can be corrupted and the Devils are a much incarnate evil as their Demonic counterparts, then I'm down. I think absolute evil doesn't work without the symmetry of absolute good.
Ultimate con though, Zariel doesn't even exist would be a hell of a plot twist.

[Anymage]

I think the propaganda is that it's always succubi. The idea of redeemed nalfeshnees doesn't get nearly as much airtime.

Actually redeeming any fiend? By 5e lore a fiend is its nature, so changing its alignment or similar core outlook changes what it is. The most likely outcome is a celestial* of roughly the same power level whose purpose is whatever that new outlook and drive is. In theory a unique celestial is possible**, but that depends on the DM's ability and willingness to homebrew.

*(Or other outsider type. I would not be surprised to find a few former devils in mechanus, who sought to remove themselves from all the politicking in baator so they could focus on the legalistic clerking that really drove them.)

**(I'm flashing to FF6 here. A fiend that thought they lucked into a town full of orphans and just needed to raise them right to reap a nice bundle of souls could well come to identify more as a guardian as it looked after and interacted with the kids. The stats and appearance of the creature wouldn't necessarily have to match with already published stat blocks.)

[Kane0]

Or if turned neutral, probably an aberration

[Mastikator]

Imagine you have a hole in the ground, right? There's something there, defined by an absence of dirt.

If you fill that hole with dirt... you don't have a hole anymore. You don't have anything anymore.

By analogy, a Succubus whose infinite hunger for love is filled ceases to exist. They'll be around for a little bit, getting filled up with love... but one day, they just won't be there anymore.

Succubi, understandably, have very mixed feelings about love.

I subscribe to this. Once achieved love it would fade away with contentment, happy for the first- and last time. It would be done, finished, complete with no reason to exist anymore.

[Amnestic]

Zariel is a Fallen Celestial and her type changed to Fiend (Devil). In her redemption ending it's certainly implied she typechanges back to Celestial as well ("all of her diabolical features vanish as her angelic form is restored", though they don't say so explicitly or provide stats for it, since it's the end of the adventure.

Presumably an Ascended Succubus would similarly typechange to Celestial, or whatever the neutral equivalent is - probably still celestial in 5e, though I guess they might take the Fey route instead of Celestial redemption route.

If angels can fall, devils can ascend, simple as.

[Millstone85]

By 5e lore a fiend is its nature, so changing its alignment or similar core outlook changes what it is.Of course MotM threw that out the window. Now devils are "typically lawful evil" despite the original statement that if a devil stopped being LE it would stop being a devil.

[Analytica]

I felt always the scariest succubus concept has nothing specific to do with love or lust, but of being an object. The succubus is an object to which someone does things out of lust for them, thus damning themselves by becoming predators. They culture a reputation as seducers because that makes it easier for their marks to convince themselves they are not ravishing the succubus out of their own desire, and so they fall more easily. If this changes, the succubus instead gains agency and boundaries. I would make it something like an Aeon, a neutral outsider that is about making balanced decisions and being a mover rather than just being moved. Maybe CN and freedom-focused. Overall again I think largely Fall-from-Grace though she indeed was still formally a succubus.

[animorte]

Has anybody here read Into the Heartless Wood? It’s a very similar thing.

There’s some murderous tree folk that flip trains and wreck society too close to their ever growing forest. But one of them has random mercy for a young man. It becomes a little Romeo and Juliet as the king and tree mother wage war. There is in fact a reason for it.

By the way, I really enjoyed that little take about the cherub.

[Chronos]

Personally, I'm of the school of thought that fiends are literally composed of evil given bodily form, and so in the extremely rare case that a fiend somehow ceases to be evil, it becomes something radically different. Possibly something that isn't even analogous to their original form: It might have vastly different appearance, abilities, and power level.

[Arkhios]

Well, apparently, according to Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (by Owlcat Games), a succubus that has somehow redeemed herself resembles something like an Azata, a chaotic good empyreal, a type of celestial beings akin to angels, who reside in Elysium (and which, by default, do not exist in 5e). Obviously because one video game based on a D&D spin-off RPG did that, it must be true and possible for all succubi. /sarcasm :smalltongue:

[Millstone85]

By the way, I really enjoyed that little take about the cherub.You are welcome! :smallsmile:

[Amnestic]

Well, apparently, according to Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (by Owlcat Games), a succubus that has somehow redeemed herself resembles something like an Azata. Obviously because one video game of a D&D spin-off RPG did that, it must be true and possible for all succubi. /sarcasm :smalltongue:

Arueshalae's redemption was in the original Adventure Path, it wasn't an invention by Owlcat (also her redemption required divine intervention to start, but go-off I guess)

But even so, she's hardly the first fiend (or even succubus) to have a good-turn. Eludecia was a succubus paladin in the 3.5 era.
And from this link are a bunch of examples of 'redeemed' fiends from back in the 2e era: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/76819/can-a-demon-or-devil-be-redeemed

So it's not some new thing, it seems to literally be as old as Planescape.

[Arkhios]

Arueshalae's redemption was in the original Adventure Path, it wasn't an invention by Owlcat (also her redemption required divine intervention to start, but go-off I guess)

But even so, she's hardly the first fiend (or even succubus) to have a good-turn. Eludecia was a succubus paladin in the 3.5 era.
And from this link are a bunch of examples of 'redeemed' fiends from back in the 2e era: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/76819/can-a-demon-or-devil-be-redeemed

So it's not some new thing, it seems to literally be as old as Planescape.

Really? Granted, I had the chance to start the actual AP, once, but the group dispersed after two sessions due to several reasons (most important probably was the group chemistry, which didn't match at all), so I don't really know if Arueshalae was an NPC invented by the makers of the video game or from the AP itself (never got into reading the AP myself).

In any case, I stand corrected, even though I wasn't entirely serious about it.

[Unoriginal]

Ok this is a bit of an odd thread I'm trying to start so here's the setup. If you read the monster manual for succubus, it describes them as fiends, neither devil nor demon that focuses on lust. It also describes them as having an infinite emptiness inside of them. I'm going with the interpretation that for whatever reason the emptiness is Love is missing in them and they feel it and try to fill that void with lust and sex.

So the question I have been pondering is if a succubus were to somehow have that emptiness replaced with love, gaining the ability to feel and receive it; what would the succubus become? I don't think it would be a succubus anymore.

5e succubi are not really lust-focused, and not sex-focused. They're fiends from Hades, focusing on despair/self-hatred.

If any love can fill the emptiness they feel/are a personification of, it is love of self, IMO.

And since demons are all about love of self pushed to malevolent extremes, well, I'd say a succubus who get love of self with no other changes morality-wise would become a demon.

[Zhorn]

And since demons are all about love of self pushed to malevolent extremes, well, I'd say a succubus who get love of self with no other changes morality-wise would become a demon.
And being that lore-wise succubi are on both sides of the devil/demon fiend spectrum, that'd probably mean there's functionally no change in form.

[Unoriginal]

And being that lore-wise succubi are on both sides of the devil/demon fiend spectrum, that'd probably mean there's functionally no change in form.

Lore-wise, succubi are not at all on the devil-demon spectrum, they just work for both.

Given that even the lowliest demons all have unique variations on their appearances, I'd expect a succubus-turned-demon to have notable differences in form. Or at least that they would develop it after enough Abyssal exposure.

A Sibriex would likely love to assist in that, too.

[hamishspence]

Lore-wise, succubi are not at all on the devil-demon spectrum, they just work for both.Depends on the edition. In 1e and 2e and 3e, they're demons. In 4e, they're devils. In 5e, they're neither - just "fiends" who work for both sides or for themselves.



Given that even the lowliest demons all have unique variations on their appearances, I'd expect a succubus-turned-demon to have notable differences in form. Or at least that they would develop it after enough Abyssal exposure.

3e had the concept of "demon lord marks" - a demon working for a specific demon lord could take on traits of that lord. The picture example included a succubus working for Pazuzu (a very avian demon lord) who was beginning to develop feathers.

[Zhorn]

Lore-wise, succubi are not at all on the devil-demon spectrum, they just work for both.
their 5e stat-block has them as shapechanger rather than demon or devil, but their stat-blocks from prior editions had them as devils (4e) and demons (3e- back).
edit: ninja'd by hamishspence while i was gathering names :smallwink:
Their origins can also be from demon or devil origins;
Glasya (daughter of the devil Asmodeus) being referenced as a succubus
Others also springing from the abyss as a lesser form of tanar'ri /demon.
Soneillon the Queen of Whispers is a demon lord that appears in the form of a succubus, and who's ability set is also charming/lifedraining... looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc
Blooden was a demon succubus from the abyss
Arunika was a succubus devil
etc

[No brains]

I think one form of a neutral succuboid are the wasp-like servants of Calistria from Pathfinder named 'Vendenopterix'. How could a succubus become one? I don't know, maybe kiss a million bees? Become more obsessed with acquiring honey than tempting mortals?

Also as an inverse of Zhorn's headcanon, perhaps succubi were kicked out of the demon and devil progressions since their fair forms and toying with love makes them unusually susceptible to redemption. A hezrou's a giant stinky frog, a glabrezu is rabid-dog-lobster-man(bearpig), a gelugon is an icy dragon with a mantis face, and even an erinyes is still mostly scary behind plate armor and a perma-poison longbow. A succubus is a nice ethereal person with spoopy wings. If a succubus tries to get cozy with someone who has resistance to necrotic damage, it might forget that its smooch is its deadliest asset. :smalltongue:

Also on the subject of succubus mutation, but far away from them turning good they can probably turn into night hags somehow. Sure there might be two distinct monsters based on hypnagogic hallucinations, but fiends and hags both have metamorphosis lore so it isn't far fetched.

[Sigreid]

5e succubi are not really lust-focused, and not sex-focused. They're fiends from Hades, focusing on despair/self-hatred.

If any love can fill the emptiness they feel/are a personification of, it is love of self, IMO.

And since demons are all about love of self pushed to malevolent extremes, well, I'd say a succubus who get love of self with no other changes morality-wise would become a demon.

I didn't read anything like that in the MM. Where did this lore come from?

[Kane0]

Succubi are just blanket fiends because in previous editions they were both devils ajd demons, both have claim to temptress types. So this is an easy way for them both to have access to succubi and also have them independant from both as the DM requires.

[Sigreid]

Fun discussion. Of course this is only possible if the DM is game, but I thought it was an interesting idea to discuss. Some good ideas and thoughts in here.

[Mastikator]

5e succubi are not really lust-focused, and not sex-focused. They're fiends from Hades, focusing on despair/self-hatred.

If any love can fill the emptiness they feel/are a personification of, it is love of self, IMO.

And since demons are all about love of self pushed to malevolent extremes, well, I'd say a succubus who get love of self with no other changes morality-wise would become a demon.

Dunno about that, the Dretch seems pretty full of self loathing. They suck, they know it, and they hate it. And they're going to take it out on you.

Most demons are just angry, full of rage, hate everything and everyone. Basically if 4chan was channeled into a form as ugly as its own mind. I've spoken to a few people like that and they don't exactly strike me as "love of self" kind of people.

[KorvinStarmast]

To answer the OP: they become a sex therapist.

I’d go with still a succubus, but NG. After they corrupt, they don’t kill the target. That would be mean and they are now kind/loving. And the best sex therapist in town. Can handle any and every preference, and can change form to accomodate same, and are loving/positive: they want to help heal/cure.

An infinite positive feels emitter, a celestial that hunts down and converts succubi since they cant be harned by their powers. Instead of a draining touch/kiss they have a calm emotions aura Not a bad idea. I prefer the sex therapist approach, but this could be added to their business model.

Of course MotM threw that out the window. Now devils are "typically lawful evil" despite the original statement that if a devil stopped being LE it would stop being a devil. Must not rant about this ...

Personally, I'm of the school of thought that fiends are literally composed of evil given bodily form, and so in the extremely rare case that a fiend somehow ceases to be evil, it becomes something radically different. Possibly something that isn't even analogous to their original form: It might have vastly different appearance, abilities, and power level. Such as a sex therapist. :smallsmile:

Fun discussion. Of course this is only possible if the DM is game, but I thought it was an interesting idea to discuss. Some good ideas and thoughts in here. We live to serve.

[Chronos]

In 3.0 edition, both sides of the Blood War had seductresses, because succubi were demons, and erinyes, which were devils, were very similar (their description started off with something like "Like succubi, erinyes enjoy tempting mortals into acts of depravity").

But then 3.5 radically changed the lore behind erinyes (they became fallen angels, and lost the bit about tempting mortals, and also got art that was considerably more clothed), and so devils didn't have seductresses any more.

[lall]

And the best sex therapist in town. Can handle any and every preference, and can change form to accomodate same, and are loving/positive: they want to help heal/cure.
Practically angels. And those brave souls who tirelessly seek therapy, true heroes.

[Jervis]

I think there’s a song for people who think they can fix a succubus. Something about relations with crazy girls.

[Kane0]

I think there’s a song for people who think they can fix a succubus. Something about relations with crazy girls.

Multiple songs, novels, even graphs.

But hey, this is a fantasy game. Redeemable hot crazy ladies sounds perfectly in genre.

[OracleofWuffing]

Dire Succubus.

It doesn't really advance spellcasting, so it's not usually considered as an option, but if the size increase floats your boat I'm not here to judge.

[KorvinStarmast]

But hey, this is a fantasy game. Redeemable hot crazy ladies sounds perfectly in genre.True.

Dire Succubus. That's a tabaxi nymphomaniac, right? :smalleek:

[Unoriginal]

I didn't read anything like that in the MM. Where did this lore come from?

It seems I have misremembered the part about Hades and the succubi being spirits of despair. I apologize for that.

The rest is in the MM or the Mordenkainen's. While Incubi/Succubi do play with mortals' lust, they play with all desires and taboos and temptations, and may pretend to befriend their victim just as well as they go for the seduction route. They also do not generally engage in sex with their victims, and the MM describes an incu-succubus kissing someone as "nothing short of an attack".


Dunno about that, the Dretch seems pretty full of self loathing. They suck, they know it, and they hate it. And they're going to take it out on you.

Most demons are just angry, full of rage, hate everything and everyone. Basically if 4chan was channeled into a form as ugly as its own mind. I've spoken to a few people like that and they don't exactly strike me as "love of self" kind of people.

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foe has lists of suggestions for Demons' traits, flaws, etc.

The Bond list is particularly enlightening:



Demon Bonds
d6 Bond
1-6 I am a perfect product of creation, destined to one day shape the cosmos to my whims. Everything I do verifies my destiny.

Demons, from the lowliest Dretch to the most powerful Demon Prince, do not think they suck. Or at least if they do they are an astronomically unusual Demon (which is possible, since Demon, but still). Being incarnations of malevolent chaos (and of chaotic malevolence) means Demons generally do what they do out of self-centered whims and impulses, and they do enjoy that.

A Demon can be angry at others, or hate others, and that may result in them turning to violence when confronted with those-who-aren't-themselves, but they may as well be violent toward others out of boredom, happiness, curiosity or anything else that pops into their mind. And the reasons why they do something can change several times in short succession. Not all of their whims and desires involve violence, either: one of the published adventure modules has a random encounter where the PCs meet a Vrock who's pondering ideas and who's quite happy if the PCs stop to engage in a philosophy discussion with them, without ever stopping being a chaotic evil fiend.

In contrast, Devils are generally quite unhappy about their lot in life, including who they currently are/where they currently are in the pecking order, as all Devils except Asmodeus has to deal with tyrannical and petty superiors, loath-filled peers who share their ambitions and envious subordinates who will backstab them the moment the benefits of the attempt outweigh the costs. Asmodeus is probably the only remotely regularly happy person in Hell.

Also, I have to say, something that strikes me in this thread is that most people are presenting love as a 100% positive thing. Love can be the start of many wonderful things, but it's also the start of many nasty, gnarly things.

[Leon]

A Contentucbus

[Kane0]

A Contentucbus

Well done, much better than Subuccus.