Consequences of of using 5e prepared spells method

[Shockwave]

5e Uses a different method of preparing spells, than 3.5 or other editions, and on the surface, I like it. However, it gets a bit wonky when looking at it along side Metamagic (Which I don't think exists in 5e)

For those of you that don't know, Wizards have their Spell Book, an "Active" spell list, and a selection of spell slots to use (Kind of like Spontaneous casters)

The number of Spells that a character can have on their "Active Spell" list is equal to their Caster Level + Their Int bonus

So a Level 1 Wizard with Int 16 would have 4 slots on the active list, those slots are chosen from spells from their Spellbook, and then when they go to cast one of their (2) spells per day, they choose from the Active list.

Now there is a concern that this will make Wizards even more OP/ Unbalanced (Probable)

But in regards to Metamagic (More so Metamagic rods) it gets messy, and I was hoping to get some thoughts on the consequences by people far more experienced than myself.

[Inevitability]

This would functionally give all wizards a very much upgraded version of spell mastery + uncanny forethought, which is already one of the better things to spend your feats on. 5e's spells are generally weaker than 3.5's: I wouldn't introduce this mechanic without fundamentally reworking the things that a spell can do.

As an alternative, consider homebrewing, or asking for a homebrew for, a bunch of feats that work like Priest of the Waste.


You can use a spell slot currently occupied by a prepared spell that is not a domain spell to cast a spell of equal or lower level that appears on the following list: cloak of shade, control weather, create food and water, create water, endure elements, heroes' feast, hydrate, protection from dessication, protection from energy, and resist energy.

Basically, spontaneous casting, but only from limited, thematically-linked lists, and only if you have the appropriate feat.

[Crake]

3.5 already has something similar to 5e prepared casting. It's a variant in unearthed arcana, that allows prepared casters to prepare a list of spells that they can then cast spontaneously. Pretty sure it's got special rules with how it interacts with metamagic, probably worth a look.

[Kitsuneymg]

There’s a PRC, some shaman I think, that gets “5e casting.” The arcanist from PF also uses it (basically.)

Wizards are already busted in 3.5. This may make them more powerful, but not more busted.

[Shockwave]

3.5 already has something similar to 5e prepared casting. It's a variant in unearthed arcana, that allows prepared casters to prepare a list of spells that they can then cast spontaneously. Pretty sure it's got special rules with how it interacts with metamagic, probably worth a look.Found it House Rule: Daily spell List pg 153 - However it says nothing in itself about Metamagic. (Though UA does have Variant rules for Spontaneous application for Metamagic)

What i'm concerned about, example
A level 10 wizard with Int18 will have 14 slots for the "Daily Spell List"
They chose to prepare in one of those slots, a Quickened Magic Missile (Not the best choice but meh), that would allow them to use cast it twice, if they so chose, Doesn't seem that powerful, but I might be missing something.

My concern is more with the Metamagic rods, their limiting factor is that you can only benefit from them thrice, under this change, you could prepare three different spells as MM modified, and then potentially cast a large number of said MM modified spells in their normal slots, getting round the rods limitation. Though thinking more on it, I could just remove said rods from the game.

[ericgrau]

5e has metamagic but it works very differently. Sorcerers have points to spend on metamagic, which has been rebalanced to not be worth more than what would give +0.5 to +2 levels in 3.5e. And what I would call +2 levels in 3.5e is super point expensive and uncommon. Other classes usually don't get metamagic except a little via a feat. There may be other ways I don't know about.

Nothing says you can't import one rule without importing the other rule though, or lots of other options.

Yes it is a big power boost to prepared casters. You may want something to balance it out. Plus spontaneous casters would need something to balance out not getting it. Yes these are not easy tasks and you probably don't want to do it at all. The easy answer would be to drop spontaneous casters and hurt prepared casters a little too much. Because magic is essential and players will still play it. But then all this may make the game less fun which is the worst thing to do. The one way I can think for it to work out would be if all the players are on board with an all prepared casters campaign. And so level of power and having class choices don't matter as much.

[Particle_Man]

Doesn’t the 3.5 Spirit Shaman have something like this? I mean it is for divine spells but I imagine it could be adapted.

[paladinn]

In 5e, metamagic is the purview of the sorcerer. It is fueled by sorcery points. If a wizard wanted to use metamagic. s/he would need to either multiclass into sorcerer Or take a feat that gives access to sorcery points. My take is to use a spell-point at least for sorcerers, with one point-pot for both spells and metamagic.

All casters in 5e cast "spontaneously", which is a big improvement over Vancian "fire-and-forget". It allows all casters more versatility in that they don't have to "re-prepare" spells; and if a wizard wants to cast 3 fireballs, s/he can. On the other hand, spell effects are based on spell level instead of caster level. A 20th level wizard's spells would be limited to 9th level effects. So it's both a gain and a nerf to casters.

Personally I'll never run a game with "fire-and-forget" again, even in 3e.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You could look into the PF1 Arcanist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/), whose casting mechanics are similar to the 5e wizard.

[Maat Mons]

I’m currently playing in a Pathfinder game that does exactly this. We’re working metamagic for all prepared casters just like it works for Arcanists. You can choose to add metamagic at the time you prepare spells, the time you cast spells, or both. If added at time of preparation, it’s inherently less flexible, but you don’t run into issues of increased casting time. Metamagic rods inherently work at time of casting, not time of preparation, so the issue you’re imagining doesn’t actually exist.

[DrMartin]

well it´s not just metamagic - there´s more to the picture. in 5e..

- Spell do not automatically scale with caster level. you need to spend a higher level slot to get more magic missiles. Not sure how this factors in *exactly* but it´s definitely part of the picture, when you have only so many slots and have to decide if preparing some spells to have something to do with those low level slots or focusing on the big guns and have nothing to spend those on.

- Buffing is very limited by the concentration mechanic: you might have three different buffs prepared, but you will only be able to use on at a time - you either fly or you are invisible, can´t have both.

- you have rituals, which do not require preparation, and expand a prepared caster´s flexibility. I guess they could map to the "i leave some slot open and take 15 minutes to prep a spell" trick that wizards can do, even if in 5e there´s only a handful of rituals.

So what I am saying, spells have many more limitation in 5e compared to 3.5, and if you want to take a page from 5e to allow for the more flexible and less paper-worky prepared spell method you might as well take a second page too and have spells always act at the minimum caster level for the slot you are using to cast them, and/or implement some 5e concentration-style limitation on the number of active spells a caster can have.

This of course if you care about keeping some form of...I was going write balance , but I mean we are talking caster ( *prepared* casters) in 3.5 so let´s say balance relative to the status quo?

[Shockwave]

I’m currently playing in a Pathfinder game that does exactly this. We’re working metamagic for all prepared casters just like it works for Arcanists. You can choose to add metamagic at the time you prepare spells, the time you cast spells, or both. If added at time of preparation, it’s inherently less flexible, but you don’t run into issues of increased casting time. Metamagic rods inherently work at time of casting, not time of preparation, so the issue you’re imagining doesn’t actually exist.

Is that a Pathfinder thing? As I understand it, MMRods in 3.5 for prepared casters typical work at the prepare stage.

[Maat Mons]

It was in the 3.5 FAQ


Does a wizard (or other spellcaster who prepares spells) with a metamagic rod (DMG 236) activate it when preparing spells (thus preparing three spells with a metamagic effect without paying the extra spell level cost) or when casting spells (allowing her to apply the metamagic effect to any three spells she likes)?

The latter. The metamagic rods function the same for any spellcaster—they allow her to apply a metamagic effect “on the fly” when casting the spell to be affected. The exception is the sorcerer (or by extension, any other spontaneous spellcaster) who must still use a full-round action to cast the affected spell.

[Shockwave]

It was in the 3.5 FAQ
Fair enough, as you say, not the issue I thought it was.


well it´s not just metamagic - there´s more to the picture. in 5e..

- Spell do not automatically scale with caster level. you need to spend a higher level slot to get more magic missiles. Not sure how this factors in *exactly* but it´s definitely part of the picture, when you have only so many slots and have to decide if preparing some spells to have something to do with those low level slots or focusing on the big guns and have nothing to spend those on.
This part doesn't bother me, I technically used a "more powerful" version of prepared spells in my 2e HB, and it wasn't an issue


- Buffing is very limited by the concentration mechanic: you might have three different buffs prepared, but you will only be able to use on at a time - you either fly or you are invisible, can´t have both. This is seems interesting, and something I will look in to taking a version of.


- you have rituals, which do not require preparation, and expand a prepared caster´s flexibility. I guess they could map to the "i leave some slot open and take 15 minutes to prep a spell" trick that wizards can do, even if in 5e there´s only a handful of rituals. HOW spells are prepared is another change I have, in my HB, its 10mins/ spell/ spell level, so that means that for you to "slot in" a single 9th level spell is 90mins.


This of course if you care about keeping some form of...I was going write balance , but I mean we are talking caster ( *prepared* casters) in 3.5 so let´s say balance relative to the status quo?Thanks for this, Context is always important and thanks for pointing out the elements I missed.

I do have other "debuffs" that effect Arcane casters, for the most part PC's would have to worry about it, but when they do, it's potentially a very big problem.

[Maat Mons]

You want to make preparing a single 9th-level spell take 90 minutes? That's going to take the 15-minute adventuring day to the next level. Instead of spending a few hours getting ready for a mission, PCs will spend a few days getting ready.

[DrMartin]

This is how it was in ad&d 2nd edition.

One of the most often ignored rules at the table in my experience, but if used it does add a layer of logistical consideration when deciding if casting or not that high level spell. Time Stop and two delayed blast fireballs means your whole morning the next day is gone! :D

[Thunder999]

Players just don't decide "I'll massively weaken my character to save in-game time" often, they might maybe do it if there's some really strong time pressure, though even then there's incentive to be as strong as possible for whatever confrontation results from it.

[Maat Mons]

I can see why people chose to ignore that rule. It doesn't accomplish what it sets out to do. Instead of limiting how many spells the Wizard can throw out in an encounter, it just adds a bunch of extra faffing around later for each spell cast.


You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.

[Elves]

This method originated in 3e with the spirit shaman class, which prepares the same
way.

[Xervous]

Running spell preparation like 5e gives 3.5e casters a much higher frequency of having the right spell for the job. The limiter on throughput becomes spell slots. This removes all drawbacks from simply even preparing for maximum nova potential.

This makes schrodinger wizards much more of a reality. With 3 spell slots on a given level the wizard is going from one discrete set of 3 spells to 10 unique combinations that are possible, ignoring casting lower level spells out of higher level slots. The quantity of spells no longer matters, having the right spell prepared means you can milk it as far as your spell slots will go.

Yeah, sorcerers already have this, but they can’t cherry pick spells for just this adventure. The wizard can bring along “trivialize X unique enemy type” spell and lose very little when it fails to be relevant, but gain so much if they need to cast it 4-7 times.

[Gnaeus]

Its worth noting that in 3.5, arcane spells tend to be both stronger and more versatile than divine spells at most levels. At 4, for example, just glancing at a thread about best cleric spells by level, I see divine power, recitation, and greater resistance. Those are good spells, but I would rather have Polymorph than all 3 put together. This is why the favored soul is generally considered on par with or weaker than sorcerer despite having a much better chassis and actual class features and more spells known at every level. Spirit shaman was mentioned above, and I confess I didn't much enjoy my spirit shaman, in large part because some of their more generalist spells (like heal) are level delayed cleric spells and I felt bad whenever I prepped them. I think I'd feel pretty pumped about a spirit shaman casting off the Sor/Wiz list.

[Shockwave]

So, I "math'd it out"

Assuming 18 Int, and every stat bonus going to Int. I have the following


Std Wiz Level Daily Spell List
2 1 5
3 2 6
5 3 7
7 4 8
9 5 9
11 6 10
14 7 11
17 8 13
20 9 14
22 10 15
24 11 16
26 12 17
28 13 18
30 14 19
32 15 20
36 16 22
38 17 23
40 18 24
42 19 25
44 20 26

Also, discounting cantrips, because Cantrips (Though they would have to take a slot on the Daily)

Note, this is just the number of spells able to be prepared, not what they can cast (That doesn't change between either way of doing it)

[Quertus]

It’s a “quality of life” improvement, like “spell component pouch” replacing tracking individual spell components, or “concentration check” replacing just straight up losing a spell when hit, or cantrips being at will.

Maybe treat it like an ACF, where Wizards can trade one QoL feature for another?

[Aquillion]

This would functionally give all wizards a very much upgraded version of spell mastery + uncanny forethought, which is already one of the better things to spend your feats on.
Not really?

Uncanny Forethought allows you to cast spells you haven't prepared at all, increasing your versatility dramatically. 5e preparation still limits the number of spells you can prepare total, it just lets you choose how many copies of each one you use on casting time.

Uncanny Forethought is still way stronger (especially due to the second clause, which, when you have a big enough spellbook, is almost Wish - many spells don't care about your CL.)

Someone with 4 spell slots can, with Uncanny Forethought, access way more than four spells. Someone with 5e prep can still only prepare 4 spells, they just get to cast one of those prepared spells four times if they want to.

[Elves]

I think the best way to frame this is: as a baseline, most classes should use sorcerer-style casting. Swapping out your entire toolset on a day-to-day basis from a list of hundreds or thousands of spells is inherently broken.

And then the defining feature of wizards should be that they can swap out their spells known to a greater extent via a spellbook.

A decent model could be to give people some swappable spells and some permanent choices. Perhaps a fire mage can freely prepare any spells with the fire descriptor, but then gets a few permanent, fixed spells known that can be other spells (not unlike a warmage's advanced learning).


Similarly, one way you could do the "wizard's spellbook" suggestion above is to let wizards freely prepare any spell in their specialty school but use fixed spells known otherwise.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Instead of the fully free form 5E style, I'd advise to go for the more native options which do something similar- those being the Spirit Shaman in 3.5 and the Arcanists in Pf.

[Aquillion]

I think the best way to frame this is: as a baseline, most classes should use sorcerer-style casting. Swapping out your entire toolset on a day-to-day basis from a list of hundreds or thousands of spells is inherently broken.

And then the defining feature of wizards should be that they can swap out their spells known to a greater extent via a spellbook.

A decent model could be to give people some swappable spells and some permanent choices. Perhaps a fire mage can freely prepare any spells with the fire descriptor, but then gets a few permanent, fixed spells known that can be other spells (not unlike a warmage's advanced learning).


Similarly, one way you could do the "wizard's spellbook" suggestion above is to let wizards freely prepare any spell in their specialty school but use fixed spells known otherwise.That doesn't sound fun at all. Prepared spellcasting is a core defining feature of D&D and a fundamental part of what makes it what it is.

Beyond that, it doesn't make sense to talk about defining features of a system as "broken" or not. The game ought to be balanced around them, not the other way around. (And the truth is that it's the individual spells, of course, that are the issue. Sorcerers are not actually balanced any better than Wizards.)

Also, "permanent" choices for spells are a terrible idea and are really really bad for the game's balance. New players can't change them later on. Experienced players are encouraged to just go for the most generally-useful selection. D&D's classic spell list - a defining part of what it is - was completely designed around prepared casting.

In every game where they've appeared, Wizards have been fun and well-designed. Are they powerful? Yeah. And there are ways to tweak that or to rebalance either the game as a whole or individual games to make classes more even. But they are good - fun to play, interesting to use. Planning around what you need to prepare for the next day is a vital part of what makes D&D what it is.

Sorcerers? Are not fun or interesting. They've been a poorly-conceptualized pale copy of Wizards since they first appeared, constantly searching for a justification for their ill-conceived existence. They're not particularly more balanced than wizards in the hands of someone determined to make a powerful one, but they have far more traps that can ruin the fun of an inexperienced player.

If I were designing the game I would cut Sorcerers completely, or have them just be a few sentences of variant rules for wizards. But wizards (and their spellcasting) are the heart-and-soul of D&D; the single worst-received edition ever made was the one that tried to change them significantly.