Wizard: On spell learning and related complications

[yisopo]

I'm a new D&D player and I'm playing a level-4 chronurgy wizard.

I like to plan ahead, so I'm trying to choose all the spells for each level till level 15 (because playing "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" + "The Rise of Tiamat" end at level 15). In the last thread I opened (Help choosing four 4th-level spells for wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650762-Help-chosing-four-4th-level-spells-for-wizard)) I started to think more deeply on the subject of spell learning when levelling up.

Maybe I can better explain my reflection through some (fictitious) layers of thought:


1) It is all too easy! Whenever I level up I take the (in vacuum) best spells I can.

2) Also I need to consider to target different saving throws and to inflict different types of damage. E.g. I don't want all the spells that target Wis.

3) Also I need to avoid redundancy in what the spells do. E.g. I don't want multiple spells to incapacitate enemy but I don't have defensive spells or teleportation.

4) Also I need to mix concentration and non-concentration spells. Generally the concentration spells are the strongest, but only one concentration spell at a time: what do I do when I'm concentrating on a single spell?

5) Also I need to consider how well spells age. It is OK to take a strong spell for the actual level (and few other level), but it is good to have also spells that keeps their effectiveness through more (or all) levels. Of course the best ones are those that are good at higher level without upcasting, but the ones that become better with upcasting are good too.

6) Also I need to consider the slot progression. Odd levels give only one slot for the new highest spells. Is it worth taking two highest-level spells at odd levels? Maybe it is better to take one of the highest spells and the other spell from a lower level? I will have only one 6th-level spells slot, do I really need to have four or more 6-level spells? In general, since I have many (four or three) slots for 1-4 level spells, maybe is sometimes better to take lower spells (if they age well)?

7) Also, rituals are very good because you don't need to prepare them and spending a slot. So it is sometimes good to avoid to take a good spell and taking a less strong ritual spell instead.


Later addition:

0) What are the best spells synergizing with my character (stats, race, class, subclass and feats)?

8) Also I need to consider the casting time. In particular I need good spells for my bonus action and for my reaction.

9) Also I need to consider the other party members. E.g. If I have a cleric as party member that has Banishment, it is better if my wizard takes something else.



And now some questions for you :smallbiggrin:

a) Do you consider all this points when you choose the new spells to learn? Do I miss something? Some points are more important than others?

b) Regarding (4), what do you think it is a good ratio between concentration and non-concentration spells? For example, I have 5 spells that are my strongest attack, but the concentration spells are stronger: is it good to have 4 concentration spells and 2 non-concentration? Can I have 5 concentration and 1 non-concentration? Other ratios?

c) Point (6) is the most obscure one for me. I don't really know how to put it in practice. Any advice? Do you usually take only the highest level spells? How often do you take lower level spells? Do you have any rule of thumb?

d) In general, how to you choose which spells to learn when levelling up?

[Gignere]

d) In general, how to you choose which spells to learn when levelling up?

I think this question summarizes your lengthy post. I’ve played 3 wizards in 5e. A diviner, evoker, and now a Bladesinger. They all focus on different roles within the party.

So my spell / planned spell selections generally reflect that for each of the roles. For the diviner I was mainly a controller wizard. So my spells focused on battle field control and debuffs, portents combos very well with save or suck/die spells. Pretty much only damaging spells I had were magic missile and fireball.

The evoker was rolled up because my party severely lacked AoE and when my first character in that campaigned died I rolled up an evoker. So I’m expected to make things go boom. So I picked lots of nukes, targeting different saves, damage types, and different spreads. The only utility spells I picked was Wall of Force and polymorph. Of course as a evoker certain evocation spells can double as utility spells. Because all I did was AoE damage and that was what was expected and needed of me in the party.

Now Bladesinger totally different approach, I’m a swordsman, my spells are actually sword techniques. I’ve reflavored stuff like shield spell as me weaving my sword defensively to parry attacks. The only “nuke” spell that I have is Thunderwave. Everything else are self buffs or “Shadowblade”, seriously I cast Shadowblade a lot. My role is to be tank/DPR so my spell load out is designed that way.

Granted there are some common picks among the builds.

1. Shield - all 3 has shield spell
2. Silvery Barbs - I would have picked on all 3 but it wasn’t published when I played diviner.
3. Animate objects - diviner and Bladesinger (plan)
4. Fireball - diviner and evoker, will skip with Bladesinger.
5. Polymorph - all 3
6. Wall of force - diviner and evoker, skipping on Bladesinger.
7. Misty Step - don’t need on my BS because he’s Shadarkai, but if not I would pick on all 3.
8. Magic missile - diviner and evoker, skipped on BS.
9. Absorb Elements - pick for all 3 but at higher level for the BS.
10. Counter spell - pick for all 3
11. Detect Magic - picked for all 3.

Basically I pick spells that fits my role and theme, and optimize around that. I don’t just default pick the best spells list for my wizards.

[Chronos]

Yet another consideration: You want to try to anticipate what spells you'll find in loot, so you don't waste free picks on things you'll get eventually anyway.

Yet another: Action economy vs. spell slot economy. For instance, one nice thing about Counterspell is that it lets you burn through all of your third-level spell slots, but a drawback is that it lets you burn through all of your third-level spell slots. At high levels, when you get lots of slots, any slot you still have at the end of the day is a wasted slot, so spells that take something other than an action are good. But at 5th level, when two third-level slots is the top of your power, you probably don't want to be using both of them in a single round. So while you'll definitely want Counterspell eventually, it probably won't be the first thing you take.

[yisopo]

They all focus on different roles within the party.

So my spell / planned spell selections generally reflect that for each of the roles. For the diviner I was mainly a controller wizard. So my spells focused on battle field control and debuffs, portents combos very well with save or suck/die spells. Pretty much only damaging spells I had were magic missile and fireball.
[...]
Basically I pick spells that fits my role and theme, and optimize around that. I don’t just default pick the best spells list for my wizards.
You are right, I left out the layer "Pick spells that fit your role/theme". This is because here I want to focus on optimization. But of course, we can see this as "layer zero" and after that we still need to consider all the other layers.


Yet another consideration: You want to try to anticipate what spells you'll find in loot, so you don't waste free picks on things you'll get eventually anyway.
Good point. But I won't include it in this list because it depends on DM and campaigns. For example, I heard my actual campaign, "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" + "The Rise of Tiamat", is low in term of spells as loot.


Yet another: Action economy vs. spell slot economy. For instance, one nice thing about Counterspell is that it lets you burn through all of your third-level spell slots, but a drawback is that it lets you burn through all of your third-level spell slots. At high levels, when you get lots of slots, any slot you still have at the end of the day is a wasted slot, so spells that take something other than an action are good. But at 5th level, when two third-level slots is the top of your power, you probably don't want to be using both of them in a single round. So while you'll definitely want Counterspell eventually, it probably won't be the first thing you take.
In my view, this is included in my point (6).


And come to think of it, I have to add these two additional layers too:
- Something to use for my reaction and bonus action.
- Avoiding redundancy with other party member (e.i. both clerics and wizard can take Banishment).

I will add those two to the opening post.

[Gignere]

You are right, I left out the layer "Pick spells that fit your role/theme". This is because here I want to focus on optimization. But of course, we can see this as "layer zero" and after that we still need to consider all the other layers.

But this is essential because what’s a top pick for an evoker with sculpt spells versus a diviner with portents will vary. Like sickening radiance is friggin amazing on an evoker because you can dump it right on top of your party, however much less so on pretty much every other subclass.

Similarly Shadowblade is like a god tier pick for a Bladesinger but it’s pretty much a garbage pick for nearly any other build.

Something like Phantasmal Force amazing if you have portents because it’s an int check to get out after failing initial save, can effectively take a creature out of battle as effectively as banishment at a level 2 slot.

[yisopo]

But this is essential because what’s a top pick for an evoker with sculpt spells versus a diviner with portents will vary. Like sickening radiance is friggin amazing on an evoker because you can dump it right on top of your party, however much less so on pretty much every other subclass.

Similarly Shadowblade is like a god tier pick for a Bladesinger but it’s pretty much a garbage pick for nearly any other build.

Something like Phantasmal Force amazing if you have portents because it’s an int check to get out after failing initial save, can effectively take a creature out of battle as effectively as banishment at a level 2 slot.
Layer 0 added to the opening post. ;-)

[KorvinStarmast]

You are right, I left out the layer "Pick spells that fit your role/theme". This is because here I want to focus on optimization. Optimizing for what? Damage? Control? Flexibility?


- Something to use for my reaction and bonus action.
- Avoiding redundancy with other party member (e.i. both clerics and wizard can take Banishment). Can you describe the entire party? I won't offer you spells 1-8 from soup to nuts at the moment, but may edit them in or follow up with a post.

EDIT: OK, I already gave you my best choices for level 4 in that other thread, here's what I'll suggest for level 5.
Concentration:
Wall of Force: battlefield control or protection, or a temporary trap. All of these applications are useful. It's one of my favorite utility spells.
or (in second place)
Telekinesis. Moving things and creatures around. Effective in a lot of different situations.

Hold Monster: if the monster fails their save, attacks on it are with advantage and hits are crits. Set your allies up for success.
Non Concentration:
a. Steel Wind Strike: For when you need to do a bunch of damage, now, versus multiple enemies who are a little spread out, and not damage your allies. (You are not an evoker, so you don't have the ability to shape spells). If you hit with all five, that's 30 d10 damage (spread out over 5 enemies, yes). Granted, you will probably miss one or two.
then either:
Synaptic Static: INT save, rider, decent damage.
or
Cone of Cold: CON save, and it takes a bit of positioning, and some creatures won't be bothered by cold damage, but this is a good one to use on a crowd.

level Six in a bit.

At this point, I will recommend a few that I have found to be very good.
Concentration:
Otto's Irresistible Dance: when it lands, the enemy doesn't get to save until its turn, and it has to use its action to try and make a saving throw. If your party is good at teamwork, this is massively effective. But the caveat may be a deal breaker here.

Choose one creature that you can see within range. The target begins a comic dance in place:
shuffling, tapping its feet, and capering for the duration.
Caveat: Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this spell.
A dancing creature must use all its movement to dance without leaving its space and has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws and attack rolls. While the target is affected by this spell, other creatures have advantage on attack rolls against it. As an action, a dancing creature makes a Wisdom saving throw to regain control of itself. On a successful save, the spell ends.
Sunbeam: no downside beyond the usual Con save usually having some modifiers. If your caster has INT 20, at level 11 your spell save DC is 18. And you get to zap the enemy every round for 6d8.
Radiant is rarely resistant/immunity.

Non concentration.
Contingency. This requires planning, but I have had good results. Choosing what to have trigger is up to your and your estimate of what you'll need to happen As A Reaction during a particular situation.

Chain Lightning (multi target)
or
Circle of Death (Big AoE)

I am sure that some will suggest other spells, but these are both easy to use.
(I am sure some will suggest

[icedraikon]

I like to have a little of everything then take w.e for the rest. Ex, I usually try to take at least 1 of all below on any spellcaster just to have options:
- AoE Control (Web, Hunger of Hadar, Evards, Plant Growth, Wall spells)
- Summon (Tashas, Summon Greater Demon, etc)
- Debuff/MultiTarget SaveorSuck (Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Bane, Faerie Fire)
- Buff (Polymorph, Haste, Bless)
- Mobility for Self (Dimension Door, Misty Step, Thunder Step)
- Mobility for Others (Fly, Spider Climb, Vortex Warp)
- Defensive Baseline (Absorb Elements, Shield, Mage Armor [if applicable], Minor Illusion)

From there, focus on your schtick (blaster, controller, etc). On my current PC (a controller/debuffer), I have 1 of all of the above plus Mind Whip, Hold Person, Mind Sliver, Sapping Sting, and am planning on taking Psychic Lance

[Yakk]

You get lots of spells.

1. Get a few really insanely good spells. Polymorph and the like.
2. Get some non-concentration spells.
3. Get a variety of damage spells.
4. Ensure your low level spells have some utility or defence in them, as at higher levels your low level damage spells are not worth casting.
5. Get some fun rituals.
6. Figure out how not to die. Enemies swarming you, enemies attacking you, etc. Have some kind of plan.
7. Solve the following two situations:
a) Your spells cannot damage a foe.
b) Your foe is passes every save effect easily.
c) There is a huge number of weak foes.
d) There is a strong foe with some weaker allies.
make sure you are effective in them. There are plenty of ways. Ensure you have spells to address them (or, say, you are a bladesinger and just hit it with a stick)

The 2/level spell count of a wizard is huge, and you'll probably end up picking spells you'll never use.

With this list, you'll be more than fine.

When you level up, be somewhat greedy. Grab stuff that helps with the above list.

Also, avoid really horrible spells, like Arcane Sword. There are lists of "the worst spells of each level". No point in getting a dud.

D&D levels slowly enough, and campaigns end often enough, that you don't want to pick spells for the long term. Pick your spells to have fun now!

It is perfectly ok to not have 4 spells of each level -- you have plenty more lower level slots than higher level ones. And you'll probably never get a 2nd 6th level spell slot, why burn 4 spells known on the level?

For example, as a bard, I used a 15th level arcane secret on counterspell, because I didn't grab it at 11 (I had other stuff I wanted more).

Finally, as you are gaining levels, you'll be able to figure out if you are being outclassed or if you are outclassing your allies in your group. If you are way outclassing, what I do is I don't make the most optimal choice every time.

Heck, one fun thing I did was make sure I used a slightly *different* tactic in big "boss" battles. I mean, making the Kraken dance and having our battleship turn and broadside it was a great "ok that is ridiculous" move in one fight. Doing it every chance I could would make it old. So, I kept irresistible dance in my back pocket and I think I used it like once again (to great effect)? Instead of repeatedly at every chance. (This also makes your DM less likely to flag every enemy as charm-immune; if you use it every fight, it will happen. If you use it every 5th fight, it probably won't.)

[Burley]

I'm playing my first 5e wizard right now and I had this "spell optimization" question myself. I had a list of spells that were good and thematic to my character concept, but as we've recently hit 5th level, I'm realizing I'm not really taking those spells.

What I've found to be realistic to play is noticing the gaps in the party and trying to fill them a bit. My wizard is a conjuration specialist, so, teleportation spells pop up a lot for me and I'd thought Thunder Step would be a cool way of having my teleportation and eating damage cake, too. But, then I noticed my party has two AoE thunder damage characters, so, my Wiz's Thunder Step would be doing what the Tempest Cleric can do, but with half the hit points for all the attacks I just dove into.

So, I realized my party is apparently disgusted by ranged attacks and we get swarmed and knocked around too often. So, now, I'm focusing on ranged attacks (multiclassed Warlock for Eldritch Blast with...) and battlefield control (... Fathomless patron for the area-denial tentacle attack). It makes sense with what's going on in the story and, with judicious use of Vortex Warp, battles are a chess game for me.



tl;dr: If you're making plans for one or two spells per level, you're great. If you're trying to write your entire spellbook at level one, you're ignoring the most important part of the game: playing the game. A lot of your spell choices will naturally be decided in-game, depending on how available new spells are for you to copy. (Also, loot the corpse of ever spellcaster.)

[yisopo]

Optimizing for what? Damage? Control? Flexibility?
Optimizing for what we want. :-)
I created this thread mainly so I and other users can learn how to choose a good and organic set of spells. Just like the saying: "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime". :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, my first objective is control, second flexibility and third damage. :-)


Wall of Force: battlefield control or protection, or a temporary trap. All of these applications are useful. It's one of my favorite utility spells.

Steel Wind Strike: For when you need to do a bunch of damage, now, versus multiple enemies.
Wall of Force was already on my list, but I didn't consider Steel Wind Strike: I need to properly study this spell.


I like to have a little of everything then take w.e for the rest. Ex, I usually try to take at least 1 of all below on any spellcaster just to have options:
- AoE Control (Web, Hunger of Hadar, Evards, Plant Growth, Wall spells)
- Summon (Tashas, Summon Greater Demon, etc)
- Debuff/MultiTarget SaveorSuck (Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Bane, Faerie Fire)
- Buff (Polymorph, Haste, Bless)
- Mobility for Self (Dimension Door, Misty Step, Thunder Step)
- Mobility for Others (Fly, Spider Climb, Vortex Warp)
- Defensive Baseline (Absorb Elements, Shield, Mage Armor [if applicable], Minor Illusion)

From there, focus on your schtick (blaster, controller, etc). On my current PC (a controller/debuffer), I have 1 of all of the above plus Mind Whip, Hold Person, Mind Sliver, Sapping Sting, and am planning on taking Psychic Lance
Basically, firstly you split spells in different group based on their uses, my layer (3); and after that for each group you select one of the best spells, my layer (1). But, what about concentration, layer 4? Usually concentration spells are the strongest: Do you continue to choose them at each level just because they are the best (in vacuum), or you take some weaker (in vacuum) spells?

And what about slot progression? Do you choose only the highest spells available for that level or you take some lower spells too?

[KorvinStarmast]

Optimizing for what we want. :-)
I created this thread mainly so I and other users can learn how to choose a good and organic set of spells. Just like the saying: "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime". :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, my first objective is control, second flexibility and third damage. :-)
At level 13 and 14 we come to four level 7 spells that I'd suggest:
Non Concentration
1. Prismatic Spray: clunky to use, but it does damage and applies rider effects and conditions on enemies who fail saves.
or
1a. Crown of Stars. Easier to use, but not as good for an AoE attack.

2. Plane Shift: at this level you may need the mobility between planes, but if not,
then
2a: Etherealness: when an enemy goes ethereal on you, you can pursue them and keep them from getting away. Also a fine spell for scouting and going through walls to find out what the heck the enemy disposition looks like before you enter their lair. We used that a lot in one campaign; the caster who had it went out and found stuff so that we'd avoid areas there were not where we were headed.

Concentration.
3. Reverse Gravity. Tactically, it's just that good.

Special
4. Teleport. Simply too useful not to take. I'd pick it at level 13, right away.

If you get to level 15, let's take a look at a few 8th level spells.
Concentration:
1. Dominate Monster. Take an enemy out of the fight and turn that enemy into a weapon against your other enemies.
or
1.a AntiMagic Field. Granted, this is potentially an own goal, since you are a spell caster, but if you are swarmed with magical enemies and effects, you can keep them away from you for a while. Very situational. Might not be the best for this campaign. For your campaign, I'd suggest Dominate Monster.

Non Concentration:
2. Mind Blank. They can't find you and they can't get inside your head. At this level, plenty of enemies have mind control abilities. Preempt them.
or
2a. Feeblemind. When it lands, you have just disabled an opponent if they can cast spells. Not sure how this fits into your campaign, but it's super nasty when it lands. Their INT/CHA are now 1. -5 on Cha saves. -5 on INT saves. -5 on ability checks (INT and CHA) for either.

I'd go for Mind Blank in your case. You can't help the party if someone mind controls you, and at level 15 for this campaign you are at the end game. The party needs you to be doing your thing.

But remember: legendary saves are a thing. Sometimes, you just burn that spell slot.
PS: if you don't already have it, get the Warcaster feat. Give your self a chance to make that concentration save.

[yisopo]

Yakk, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you :-)


1. Get a few really insanely good spells. Polymorph and the like.
2. Get some non-concentration spells.
3. Get a variety of damage spells.
4. Ensure your low level spells have some utility or defence in them, as at higher levels your low level damage spells are not worth casting.
5. Get some fun rituals.
Great advices, especially (4) that was not covered in my opening post.

Regarding your (2), do you have some details (a ratio non-conc vs conc, or other quantitative suggestions)?


6. Figure out how not to die. Enemies swarming you, enemies attacking you, etc. Have some kind of plan.
7. Solve the following two situations:
a) Your spells cannot damage a foe.
b) Your foe is passes every save effect easily.
c) There is a huge number of weak foes.
d) There is a strong foe with some weaker allies.
make sure you are effective in them. There are plenty of ways. Ensure you have spells to address them (or, say, you are a bladesinger and just hit it with a stick)
Choosing driven by specific scenarios. I can see this is a great additional approach to the one I proposed in the opening post. I will use it too!


D&D levels slowly enough, and campaigns end often enough, that you don't want to pick spells for the long term. Pick your spells to have fun now!
I agree. A wizard build at level 15 is totally different than a wizard build at level 1 and then levelled till 15.


It is perfectly ok to not have 4 spells of each level -- you have plenty more lower level slots than higher level ones. And you'll probably never get a 2nd 6th level spell slot, why burn 4 spells known on the level?
Good you are confirming my point (6). I don't see this point discussed/considered very often in the discussions about the choice of spells.

Maybe starting from level 9 (when level-5 spells come out) is it better to take more and more lower spells?


Finally, as you are gaining levels, you'll be able to figure out if you are being outclassed or if you are outclassing your allies in your group. If you are way outclassing, what I do is I don't make the most optimal choice every time.
I totally agree. I want to have an optimized character because I like the exercise. Moreover, if I know the situation is very tough for our party (TPK) I can fully unleash my power. But I generally play in a more relaxed way, prioritizing the fun aspect.


Heck, one fun thing I did was make sure I used a slightly *different* tactic in big "boss" battles. I mean, making the Kraken dance and having our battleship turn and broadside it was a great "ok that is ridiculous" move in one fight. Doing it every chance I could would make it old. So, I kept irresistible dance in my back pocket and I think I used it like once again (to great effect)? Instead of repeatedly at every chance. (This also makes your DM less likely to flag every enemy as charm-immune; if you use it every fight, it will happen. If you use it every 5th fight, it probably won't.)
Great anecdote. :-)

[Yakk]

You'll want to use concentration all of the time in any challenging fights. You don't usually have enough high level slots to do this.

So you'll want lower level concentration spells.

Again, this is going to be a matter of how your actual game is playing out. If you have 5 minute adventuring days in actual play, then your picks are going to be different. If you find you are losing concentration all of the time, again, your strategy will be different.

You can't know if this will happen before actually playing with your actual party and your actual DM.

[yisopo]

I'm playing my first 5e wizard right now and I had this "spell optimization" question myself. I had a list of spells that were good and thematic to my character concept, but as we've recently hit 5th level, I'm realizing I'm not really taking those spells.

What I've found to be realistic to play is noticing the gaps in the party and trying to fill them a bit. My wizard is a conjuration specialist, so, teleportation spells pop up a lot for me and I'd thought Thunder Step would be a cool way of having my teleportation and eating damage cake, too. But, then I noticed my party has two AoE thunder damage characters, so, my Wiz's Thunder Step would be doing what the Tempest Cleric can do, but with half the hit points for all the attacks I just dove into.

So, I realized my party is apparently disgusted by ranged attacks and we get swarmed and knocked around too often. So, now, I'm focusing on ranged attacks (multiclassed Warlock for Eldritch Blast with...) and battlefield control (... Fathomless patron for the area-denial tentacle attack). It makes sense with what's going on in the story and, with judicious use of Vortex Warp, battles are a chess game for me.

tl;dr: If you're making plans for one or two spells per level, you're great. If you're trying to write your entire spellbook at level one, you're ignoring the most important part of the game: playing the game. A lot of your spell choices will naturally be decided in-game, depending on how available new spells are for you to copy. (Also, loot the corpse of ever spellcaster.)
Thank you for the interesting anecdote and I agree with your thought. By the way, I like so much building plans that I keep review and adjust them. So I will reevaluate my spell progression plan at each level-up. ;-)

[yisopo]

You'll want to use concentration all of the time in any challenging fights. You don't usually have enough high level slots to do this.

So you'll want lower level concentration spells.

Again, this is going to be a matter of how your actual game is playing out. If you have 5 minute adventuring days in actual play, then your picks are going to be different. If you find you are losing concentration all of the time, again, your strategy will be different.

You can't know if this will happen before actually playing with your actual party and your actual DM.
It makes perfect sense. This is another layer in order to build our spell-set.

[yisopo]

[...] here's what I'll suggest for level 5.
Concentration:
Wall of Force: [...]
Telekinesis. [...]
Hold Monster: [...]

Non Concentration:
a. Steel Wind Strike [...]
Synaptic Static [...] or Cone of Cold [...]
Other 5-level spells I'm interested in:

- [concentration] Bigby’s Hand (instead of Telekinesis?)
- [concentration] Summon Draconic Spirit
- [concentration] Animate Objects
- [non-concentration] Transmute Rock


level Six in a bit.

At this point, I will recommend a few that I have found to be very good.
Concentration:
Otto's Irresistible Dance [...]
Sunbeam [...]

Non concentration:
Contingency [...]
Chain Lightning [...] or Circle of Death

Other 6-level spells I'm interested in:

- [non-concentration] Magic Jar
- [non-concentration] Scatter
- [concentration] Mental Prison
- [non-concentration] Soul Cage
- [concentration] Eyebite


At level 13 and 14 we come to four level 7 spells that I'd suggest:
Non Concentration
1. Prismatic Spray [...] Crown of Stars [...]

2. Plane Shift [or] Etherealness [...]

Concentration.
3. Reverse Gravity [...]

Special
4. Teleport. [...]

Other 7-level spells I'm interested in:

- [non-concentration] Simulacrum
- [non-concentration] Forcecage



If you get to level 15, let's take a look at a few 8th level spells.
Concentration:
1. Dominate Monster [...] or AntiMagic Field. [...]

Non Concentration:
2. Mind Blank. [...] or Feeblemind.

Other 8-level spells I'm interested in:

- [concentration] Maze
- [non-concentration] Demiplane
- [non-concentration] Antipathy/Sympathy
- [concentration] Illusory Dragon

[Bobthewizard]

So this is fun. I'm going to focus on early spells because campaigns rarely get to Tier 3 and 4, and if yours does, you'll have more experience on what gaps to fill in.

First, make sure you take as many rituals as you can. It's the most powerful part of being a wizard. They are really free preparations for you since you don't need to prepare them. I try not to take any more non-ritual spells than I have preparations for. So at level 1, with a 17 INT, I'd take 3-4 spells to prepare and 2-3 rituals. Most of the time when I level up, I'm taking a spell to prepare and a ritual. The only time I'm not taking a ritual is when I'm replacing a lower level preparation that isn't holding up.

So at first level, I'd take one of sleep, thunder wave, magnify gravity, or magic missile as my offensive spell. Then likely mage armor (though I won't cast it until level 3), shield, and something flavorful. For rituals, I like find familiar, detect magic, and comprehend languages. At level two, I'd add Tasha's hideous laughter and another ritual. I'd wait to take absorb elements until later.

As you level up, it's ok to take lower level spells, especially rituals. For preparations, I like to make sure I have one concentration debuff for my top 2-3 levels of spells. So at level 6, I'd want maybe Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Web, and Hypnotic Pattern.

Then you want to add in non-concentration spells, utility and movement but I'm not likely to use my highest level slots for that. So I don't use misty step at levels 3-4, since those slots are still too valuable, but I love that spell at levels 7+.

Here's a generic example

1 - sleep, mage armor, shield, (find familiar, detect magic, comprehend languages)
2 - Tasha's hideous laughter, (Tensers floating disc)
3 - web, (unseen servant)
4 - Tasha's mind whip, absorb elements (plus command, misty step from Fey touched)
5 - hypnotic pattern, fireball (drop sleep)
6 - fly, (leomunds tiny hut)
7 - polymorph, Summon shadowspawn (drop Tasha's Laughter)
8 - dimension door, silvery barbs (+2 INT)
9 - wall of force, (Rarys telepathic bond)
10 - Raulothims psychic lance, counterspell (drop web)
11 - mass suggestion, (phantom steed)
12 - scatter, (water breathing)
13 - force cage, dispel magic (drop Tasha's mind whip)

[Yakk]

So at first level, I'd take one of sleep, thunder wave, magnify gravity, or magic missile as my offensive spell. Then likely mage armor (though I won't cast it until level 3), shield, and something flavorful. For rituals, I like find familiar, detect magic, and comprehend languages. At level two, I'd add Tasha's hideous laughter and another ritual. I'd wait to take absorb elements until later.
You get new spells at level 2. Don't take mage armor until level 2, take shield at level 1.

Take mage armor at 2 not 3, because at 3 you get 2nd level spells. Don't take it at 1, because at 1 you only have 2 1st level slots, and they are your big guns.

Take shield, because burning a 1st level slot is better than death. Try not to use it.



1 - sleep, mage armor, shield, (find familiar, detect magic, comprehend languages)
2 - Tasha's hideous laughter, (Tensers floating disc)
3 - web, (unseen servant)
4 - Tasha's mind whip, absorb elements (plus command, misty step from Fey touched)
5 - hypnotic pattern, fireball (drop sleep)
6 - fly, (leomunds tiny hut)
7 - polymorph, Summon shadowspawn (drop Tasha's Laughter)
8 - dimension door, silvery barbs (+2 INT)
9 - wall of force, (Rarys telepathic bond)
10 - Raulothims psychic lance, counterspell (drop web)
11 - mass suggestion, (phantom steed)
12 - scatter, (water breathing)
13 - force cage, dispel magic (drop Tasha's mind whip)

I'm not sure what you mean by "drop". Wizards spells known doesn't involve a drop.

Are you talking about "what you keep memorized for a typical day"?

[Bobthewizard]

You get new spells at level 2. Don't take mage armor until level 2, take shield at level 1.

Take mage armor at 2 not 3, because at 3 you get 2nd level spells. Don't take it at 1, because at 1 you only have 2 1st level slots, and they are your big guns.

Take shield, because burning a 1st level slot is better than death. Try not to use it.



I'm not sure what you mean by "drop". Wizards spells known doesn't involve a drop.

Are you talking about "what you keep memorized for a typical day"?

I recommended shield at level 1. You could definitely switch mage armor and Tasha's laughter, but I'm going to try to use all of my slots at levels one and two on sleep/thunderwave/magnify gravity, so I don't really care what else I have. I don't care if I die at levels 1 or 2, I'll just make a new character.

Yes, 'drop' means to no longer prepare.

[yisopo]

Bobthewizard, Yakk, very interesting analysis.

I'm adding the spells I have already learn since I'm a level-4 Wizard:

Shield
Mage Armor
Absorb Elements
Detect Magic
Silvery Barbs
Gift Of Alacrity
Sleep
Find Familiar
Goodberry (from Quantrix background)

Tasha's Mind Whip
Web
Misty Step
Vortex Wrap*

* I don't know if Vortex Wrap was a good choice, since other 2 party members (in total we are 4 players: Chronurgist Wizard, Eldritch Knight, Shadow Monk and Peace Cleric) have Misty Step.



For the next levels, I'm planning:

Level 5
Hypnotic Pattern
Phantom Steed

Level 6
Counterspell
Slow*

* I don't know if Slow is redundant or not. It targets the same save as Hypnotic Pattern and it has a similar role. But I can use Slow when enemies are not properly alligned for Hypnotic Pattern. But maybe I can avoid Slow, since I have +11 Initiative (Temporal Awareness + Alert) and I almost always start first.



Plans for the next levels are somewhat more nebulous. Here some unoptimized and very draft ideas:

Level 7
Polymorph
Summon Greater Demon

Level 8
Watery Sphere
Raulothims Psychic Lance

Level 9
Wall of Force
Bigby’s Hand

Level 10
Summon Draconic Spirit
Transmute Rock or Synaptic Static

Level 11
Scatter
Mass Suggestion* or Contingency

* My DM rules the 2nd-level Suggestion in a very weak way (it basically works only out of combat), so I think this will apply to Mass Suggestion too.

Level 12
Mental Prison
Dimension Door or Magic Jar

Level 13
Simulacrum
Forcecage

Level 14
Teleport
???

Level 15
Maze
Demiplane or Antipathy/Sympathy or Illusory Dragon


But I would like to add Tiny Hut and Mirror Image here somewhere... Mirror Image looks to me the perfect spell to learn at higher level than its own.

[yisopo]

At level two, I'd add Tasha's hideous laughter
With the exception for Magic Missile (that I will use against concentration and for other niche uses), I will keep my first-level slots for defence: Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements and Silvery Barbs. At higher levels I may consider to use them for Gift of Alacrity too.

[animorte]

But I would like to add Tiny Hut and Mirror Image here somewhere... Mirror Image looks to me the perfect spell to learn at higher level than its own.
I really like both of those.

I think mirror image is reliable and a bit underrated. Costs an action but no concentration. It might not help vs fewer enemies since they’re not likely to hit you anyway. But it’s worth it against greater numbers and buying a couple turns of things go south. This one isn’t necessary, but it’s neat and can be helpful.

Now, leomund’s tiny hut is wonderful, especially being a ritual. If one person has it, then that’s reliable for the entire party, again especially if the caster has ritual casting. You do. I would absolutely take this.

Are you concerned with what to swap out?

[Gignere]

With the exception for Magic Missile (that I will use against concentration and for other niche uses), I will keep my first-level slots for defence: Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements and Silvery Barbs. At higher levels I may consider to use them for Gift of Alacrity too.

At higher levels you should not be preparing mage armor and gift of alacrity because you should be scribing stacks of scrolls of these spells during your downtime. There is no need to prepare them, once you have a solid amount of gold.

[KorvinStarmast]

Other 5-level spells I'm interested in:
- [concentration] Bigby’s Hand (instead of Telekinesis?)
I have used both, Telekinesis lets you add your proficiency bonus to moving other creatures around. Bigby's is a straight +8. It is multi purpose. If I had to do it over again, I'd take telekinesis over Bigby's Hand. Close, though, and either is a fine choice. And Bigby's can straight out punch things. :smallbiggrin: It can also deliver a gigantic pizza to a party. :smallbiggrin:

- [concentration] Summon Draconic Spirit
Great spell, only used it sparingly. If you pick it I don't think you'll be disappointed, and, if you upcast it so sixth level the spirit gets three rather than two attacks, better AC, etc.

- [concentration] Animate Objects
Its only shortcoming is resistant and immune enemies, damage wise. Versus non resistant/non immune enemies it's a shredder.

- [non-concentration] Transmute Rock Depends on the situation. Have rarely seen it used.

- [non-concentration] Magic Jar Depends on the campaign, so I'll pass on comment.

- [non-concentration] Scatter
Not bad for crowd control, as written, but as I've not seen it used in combat I am not sure.

- [concentration] Mental Prison Have not used, so won't comment. But beware of "immune to charm" caveats, this has one.

- [non-concentration] Soul Cage
When it works, it works well; I did not choose it when I had a chance due to personal preferences/alignment stance, but it is nice for being non concentration and it's flexible. But it is limited to humanoid targets; is your campaign mostly humanoids? If not, this might not be a great choice.

- [concentration] Eyebite
Like it. Good to very good. It's on my shorts list when it comes to level 6 spells. And it's flexible. But, as with many other concentration spells, save at the end of a turn so make sure your Spell DC is maxed out. (And get the Mind Sliver cantrip ...)


Other 7-level spells I'm interested in:
- [non-concentration] Simulacrum
I recommended it before and I recommend it now. I'd take it.

- [non-concentration] Forcecage It's a very good spell but I've not used it much so I won't comment further. If you have to choose one over the other I'd like to have an additional ally or decoy, Simulacrum, but that's a play style choice. A lot of folks love forcecage.


Other 8-level spells I'm interested in:
- [concentration] Maze
You can take someone out of the battle with a lower level spell, or, you can use dominate monster to get them to fight for you. While this is not a bad spell I'd take Dominate monster. But, there's a neat feature on this one: if the target fails the save and you need to escape, it can spend up to 10 minutes trying to get out of the maze while you are long gone as long as you maintain concentration.

- [non-concentration] Demiplane I will never advocate for this, as I do not believe it should have made the final cut in this edition. I'll let others describe its pros and cons.

- [non-concentration] Antipathy/Sympathy As written, it is potentially very effective, but I've not used it in play so I am not sure.

- [concentration] Illusory Dragon
If you can keep your concentration up, that's a nice, mobile source of trouble for your enemies.
I love that it only has a Somatic component: you can be in 'silence' and still cast this one! No material component needed. I like that even if the illusion is seen they still take damage (half, but that's still damage!).
I like having dialable damage types. (You choose the breath weapon)
INT saving throw versus damage? Yes Please!
I'd say that the downside is the initial wisdom save versus being frightened. There's a lot to love. Your job is to maintain concentration and keep it working! :smallsmile:

[Rukelnikov]

Just my usual nitpicky pedantry, but when you say "I NEED to take this and that into consideration", you don't NEED to do that, you WANT to, you don't "fail at playing wizard" by just picking whatever spell you fancy at level up.

Sure, some options will likely end up being more useful than others, but you can skip all the homework if you dont WANT to do it, and still be really useful just by having the 10 or so usual suspects, and whatever else you fancy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Slow*

* I don't know if Slow is redundant or not. It targets the same save as Hypnotic Pattern and it has a similar role. But I can use Slow when enemies are not properly alligned for Hypnotic Pattern. But maybe I can avoid Slow, since I have +11 Initiative (Temporal Awareness + Alert) and I almost always start first. I used slow tactically a lot. Do not underestimate this spell. It's very good. And if you go first, you have doused the multi-attack (many monsters and NPCs have multi attack) before they can act (should they fail the save) and any spell caster has to roll a d20 to try and cast a spell, and they may fail/fizzle. It is not redundant, it is impressive, and no "charm" immunity to worry about.

Level 9
Wall of Force
Bigby’s Hand
I kept those two from levels 10 through 20(Lore Bard). As noted above there are other choices, but these two are handy in a lot of different situations.


Level 11
Scatter
Mass Suggestion* or Contingency
Personal bias: Contingency wins.

Level 12
Mental Prison
Dimension Door or Magic Jar If you get swallowed by a big monster (and as you go up in levels, a variety of monsters can swallow you) DD out is a great way not to die. It also lets you take a friend. DD is a great spell, I don't leave home without it. :smallsmile:

Level 13
Simulacrum
Forcecage
As above, Simulacrum. (Playstyle preference, either is fine).

Level 14
Teleport??? Too good of a spell not to take, I'd suggest taking it at 13 and one of the others at 14.

Level 15
Maze
Demiplane or Antipathy/Sympathy or Illusory Dragon
Of those four, Illusory Dragon or Antipathy/Sympathy. ID for the reasons noted above, A/S for battlefield/area control potential.

But I would like to add Tiny Hut and Mirror Image here somewhere... Mirror Image looks to me the perfect spell to learn at higher level than its own. Tiny hut is a ritual. Buy a scroll of it and copy it in to your book? Not sure how your campaign handles that. Mirror Image ... maybe if you find a spell book in loot, copy it into your book?

[yisopo]

I really like both of those.

I think mirror image is reliable and a bit underrated. Costs an action but no concentration. It might not help vs fewer enemies since they’re not likely to hit you anyway. But it’s worth it against greater numbers and buying a couple turns of things go south. This one isn’t necessary, but it’s neat and can be helpful.
When I was proposing Mirror Image I was thinking a way to protect my concentration after casting casting Hypnotic Pattern, Slow or other concentration spells.

But what about Rope Trick? I'm studying it for the first time and to me it looks way way too powerful. Or I didn't understand something important?


Now, leomund’s tiny hut is wonderful, especially being a ritual. If one person has it, then that’s reliable for the entire party, again especially if the caster has ritual casting. You do. I would absolutely take this.

Are you concerned with what to swap out?
Something I concerned:

1. Is it worth to drop some powerful spells from the above list in order to learn Tiny Hut and Mirror Image/Rope Trick? If so, how and when?

2. Is to worth to take so many high level spells when I will have maximum 1 slot per day for level 6+ spells?

3. Taking Wall of Force, Mental Prison, Forcecage and Maze is too much redundant? They looks so strong/good for their relative levels.


At higher levels you should not be preparing mage armor and gift of alacrity because you should be scribing stacks of scrolls of these spells during your downtime. There is no need to prepare them, once you have a solid amount of gold.
You are right. I haven't studied scroll scribing yet. :-)

[yisopo]

[...]
So many useful information. I will take some time to absorb all of them. Thanks!


I will never advocate for this, as I do not believe it should have made the final cut in this edition. I'll let others describe its pros and cons.
Very cryptic comment. I'm now curious. :-)


I used slow tactically a lot. Do not underestimate this spell. It's very good. And if you go first, you have doused the multi-attack (many monsters and NPCs have multi attack) before they can act (should they fail the save) and any spell caster has to roll a d20 to try and cast a spell, and they may fail/fizzle. It is not redundant, it is impressive, and no "charm" immunity to worry about.
Yeah, almost forgot about the fact that nobody is immune to Slow. I will take both Hypnotic Pattern and Slow then. ;-)


Personal bias: Contingency wins.
With DD? How do you use it exactly?


Tiny hut is a ritual. Buy a scroll of it and copy it in to your book? Not sure how your campaign handles that. Mirror Image ... maybe if you find a spell book in loot, copy it into your book?
In the actual campaign, we are still in a zone with small villages. But I'm looking forward to be in a big city (I think at least Baldur's Gate and/or Waterdeep) to see how my DM will handle buying scrolls.

[yisopo]

Just my usual nitpicky pedantry, but when you say "I NEED to take this and that into consideration", you don't NEED to do that, you WANT to, you don't "fail at playing wizard" by just picking whatever spell you fancy at level up.
Pedantically, no one needs anything. Or, better, "need" always requires a context and this context is often implicit. So here "optimization" is in the title, so not much implicit. :smallbiggrin:


Sure, some options will likely end up being more useful than others, but you can skip all the homework if you dont WANT to do it, and still be really useful just by having the 10 or so usual suspects, and whatever else you fancy.
Basically I really like to do this logic exercises. It is fun for me. ;-)

[KorvinStarmast]

Very cryptic comment. I'm now curious. :-) I think it's one of the more cheese-enabling spells in the game, but I suppose that at least it can't fit large, huge, or gargantuan creatures. For your campaign, it might not be that useful unless there is a humanoid of medium size or smaller that you want to put into a planar prison forever as a part of the end game.

Yeah, almost forgot about the fact that nobody is immune to Slow. I will take both Hypnotic Pattern and Slow then. ;-) I got very good use out of both.

With DD? How do you use it exactly? When I got swallowed by a purple worm, on my turn I DD'd out, since I don't have to see where I am going, and I had a rough idea of how big the room/cavern was in which we were fighting. When I got swallowed by a kraken we were underwater and I picked a distance away and off I went. Verbal component only.

In the actual campaign, we are still in a zone with small villages. But I'm looking forward to be in a big city (I think at least Baldur's Gate and/or Waterdeep) to see how my DM will handle buying scrolls. My suggestion was for later on, since one has to be level 5 for Leomund's Tiny Hut anyway.

About casting mirror image: if you cast it right before combat starts, its great. That means that if your party is very good at scouting and finding the enemy before you begin a battle, you can cast it right before combat begins. Then on round 1 with it already up your first action in combat can be anything you need it to be.
If you cast it during the first round of combat, that's something else you could have cast, like a control or buff spell.

Mind you, with your initiative, you may go first a lot so doing that first and then seeing how the batte develops, and where your debuffs/etc are needed might be a good idea.

If you cast it after you cast a concentration spell, I can see how it would work.
If you combats tend to be longer than three rounds long, I agree with how that helps you.
I very rarely used it, but when I did use it I will say that it was handy for avoiding some damage.

[animorte]

When I was proposing Mirror Image I was thinking a way to protect my concentration after casting casting Hypnotic Pattern, Slow or other concentration spells.
That sounds like a good idea to me!

But what about Rope Trick? I'm studying it for the first time and to me it looks way way too powerful. Or I didn't understand something important?
Yes, rope trick is good absolutely, 1 action to you and friends away for a short rest. The reason I said definitely to Leomund’s tiny hut is because you can take long/short rest and it’s a ritual so it won’t expend a spell slot if you don’t want to, especially if you’re only staying in for a short rest.

Something I concerned:
1. Is it worth to drop some powerful spells from the above list in order to learn Tiny Hut and Mirror Image/Rope Trick? If so, how and when?
2. Is to worth to take so many high level spells when I will have maximum 1 slot per day for level 6+ spells?
3. Taking Wall of Force, Mental Prison, Forcecage and Maze is too much redundant? They looks so strong/good for their relative levels.
1. A lot of this depends on the style of game that is occurring. If you can’t consistently find a safe place to stay, get leomund’s tiny hut as soon as possible, for example.
2. Some of the high level spells you get will be similar to the lower ones, often not worth replicating. Depends. It is certainly worth having a couple very strong ones. You’ll just get to a point where one is clearly the better decision to make that will make sure you survive to the next long rest.
3. I would say yes to the redundancy. Of course, on that note, some things focus on different saves while others just have none. I prefer the no-save spells.

[yisopo]

I think it's one of the more cheese-enabling spells in the game, but I suppose that at least it can't fit large, huge, or gargantuan creatures. For your campaign, it might not be that useful unless there is a humanoid of medium size or smaller that you want to put into a planar prison forever as a part of the end game.
Got it, thanks. Anyway, I decided to not take Demiplane. ;-)



When I got swallowed by a purple worm, on my turn I DD'd out, since I don't have to see where I am going, and I had a rough idea of how big the room/cavern was in which we were fighting. When I got swallowed by a kraken we were underwater and I picked a distance away and off I went. Verbal component only.
You suggested me to take Contingency. What is your ideal uses of it? Contingency + Dimension Door, or other?



My suggestion was for later on, since one has to be level 5 for Leomund's Tiny Hut anyway.
In the opening post I wrote I was level-4 wizard. But now I'm level-5, so I'm Hut-ready. :-)

I took Hypnotic Pattern and Slow. At level 6 I will take Phantom Steed and Counterspell.


About casting mirror image: if you cast it right before combat starts, its great. That means that if your party is very good at scouting and finding the enemy before you begin a battle, you can cast it right before combat begins. Then on round 1 with it already up your first action in combat can be anything you need it to be.
If you cast it during the first round of combat, that's something else you could have cast, like a control or buff spell.

Mind you, with your initiative, you may go first a lot so doing that first and then seeing how the batte develops, and where your debuffs/etc are needed might be a good idea.

If you cast it after you cast a concentration spell, I can see how it would work.
If you combats tend to be longer than three rounds long, I agree with how that helps you.
I very rarely used it, but when I did use it I will say that it was handy for avoiding some damage.
Useful suggestion! By the way, what do you think about the use of Rope Trick as a defence spell during a combat?


Yes, rope trick is good absolutely, 1 action to you and friends away for a short rest.
If I read the spell correctly, you can use Rope Trick not only for short-resting, but during the combat too.


1. A lot of this depends on the style of game that is occurring. If you can’t consistently find a safe place to stay, get leomund’s tiny hut as soon as possible, for example.
2. Some of the high level spells you get will be similar to the lower ones, often not worth replicating. Depends. It is certainly worth having a couple very strong ones. You’ll just get to a point where one is clearly the better decision to make that will make sure you survive to the next long rest.
3. I would say yes to the redundancy. Of course, on that note, some things focus on different saves while others just have none. I prefer the no-save spells.
Thank you. ;-)

[KorvinStarmast]

Got it, thanks. Anyway, I decided to not take Demiplane. ;-) :smallsmile:

You suggested me to take Contingency. What is your ideal uses of it? Contingency + Dimension Door, or other? I am not in your campaign, so I'll not try to second guess what you'll need. Look at all of your spells from level 5 down to level 1, and figure out which one gives you the "I need {this} now if {that} happens" and prepare that based on what you are going to do and where you are going. This is very much a planning process with your whole party. And you may change what the contingency is between missions/sessions as your threat changes. One time I prepared wall of force (10' radius sphere), another time I prepared DD, another time I prepared greater restoration {Lore Bard}. It really depends on what you are up against. Also, be aware that it has an expiration.

In the opening post I wrote I was level-4 wizard. But now I'm level-5, so I'm Hut-ready. :-) *Grin*

I took Hypnotic Pattern and Slow. At level 6 I will take Phantom Steed and Counterspell.
All fine choices.

Useful suggestion! By the way, what do you think about the use of Rope Trick as a defence spell during a combat? Discuss that with you party. What do they think about trying to scamper up a rope during the middle of combat? If you pre cast it, before the battle, maybe it allows a withdrawal if things go sideways.

If I read the spell correctly, you can use Rope Trick not only for short-resting, but during the combat too. I see no reason that it can't.

[yisopo]

@KorvinStarmast Thank again for the suggestions. Soon I will post here the result of my pondering combined with all the advices in this thread. ;-)

[yisopo]

Here I'm back as promised. :smallbiggrin:

Spells I already have (level-5 Time Wizard):

Shield
Mage Armor
Absorb Elements
Detect Magic
Silvery Barbs
Gift Of Alacrity
Sleep
Find Familiar
Goodberry (from Quantrix background)

Tasha's Mind Whip
Web
Misty Step
Vortex Wrap

Hypnotic Pattern
Phantom Steed

Level 6
Leomund’s Tiny Hut
Slow

It is too early for my campaign to have Counterspell. We will face casters at higher levels.

It may look Slow is redundant with Hypnotic Pattern, but one is complementary with the other. If I can avoid friendly fire and enemies are not resistant/immune to charm, Hypnotic Pattern is the best; for all the other cases, Slow is perfect.

Level 7
Polymorph
Summon Greater Demon

Level 8
Watery Sphere
Raulothim's Psychic Lance

After Tasha's Mind Whip, another non-concentration attack spell: Raulothim's Psychic Lance. It is good because we will face many enemies for whom we will know their names beforehand.

Level 9
Wall of Force
Synaptic Static

Again one concentration spell and one non-concentration spell. But unfortunately at level 9 I have only one 5th-level slot, so I will generally use it for Wall of Force.

Level 10
Temporal Shunt
Bigby’s Hand

I won't take Counterspell, I will keep only Temporal Shunt. Having both is too much redundant for me. Temporal Shunt has a bigger range and, above all, it work also against other attacks and it will block an enemy's entire turn (blocking more than one attacks). Moreover, it upcasts nicely. Its weakness is the Wis saving throw, but having Chrono Shift, Lucky and Silvery Barbs helps a lot. :-)

Level 11
Contingency
Dimension Door

I can have 6th-level spells now: it is the perfect time to take the 4th-level spell Dimension Door! Of course the combo is Contingency + Dimension Door. I didn't take DD soon becase: 1) I have both Misty Step and Vortex Wrap; 2) Other teammates of mine (two out of three) have Misty Steps.

I don't take Mass Suggestion because my DM is very restrictive on its use.

Level 12
Transmute Rock
Rary’s Telepathic Bond

I was tamped to take Scatter, but my party is quite mobile so I won't. My only 6th-level spell is Contingency, so I don't have a level-6 spell to cast during the combat. I don't see a problem. I will have only one 6th-level slot, so I can use it for 5th-level spells, ideally with Wall of Force.

In general, with the exception of Contingency, I am not so impress with 6th-level spells. And even Contingency is not great for me (only good) because its restriction.

Regarding Transmute Rock, not only is a good non-concentration control spell, but it is a very good utility spell in the right situation. I can collapse buildings and other structures with this spell.

Level 13
Simulacrum
Forcecage

Level 14
Fortune's Favor
Arcane Eye

I'm taking the level-2 Fortune's Favor and level-4 Arcane Eye. I have only one 7-level slot, so Simulacrum and Forcecage are perfectly enough. Regarding Fortune's Favor, 100gp should be nothing at this level. :-)

I'm not taking Plane Shift because my cleric can take it.

Level 15
Maze
Antipathy/Sympathy

Only one 8th-level slot. Antipathy/Sympathy lasts 10 days, so it is basically a slot-free spell. So I can use my only 8th-level slot for Maze.


OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

a. I have 34 spells in total, of which only 10 require concentration: Hypnotic Pattern (3rd-level), Slow (3rd-level), Arcane Eye (4th-level), Polymorph (4th-level), Summon Greater Demon(4th-level), Watery Sphere (4th-level), Wall of Force (5th-level), Bigby's Hand (5th-level), Maze (8th-level).

b. I have various options if I'm blinded: Hypnotic Pattern, Psychic Lance (only if I know the name), Wall of Force, Dimension Door and Forcecage. And I have Momentary Stasis from my arcane tradition.

c. I will have very few options if I'm in a silence area: Hypnotic Pattern and Momentary Stasis. But I saw this is a general weakness of the wizard spell list. Anyway Phantom Steed should be enough in general.

d. I think I have a good variety of spell effects covering different scenarios: my spells cannot damage a foe (Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Wall of Force, ...); a foe passes every save effect easily (Wall of Force, Mind Sliver+Lucky, Summon Greater Demon, ...); there is a huge number of weak foes (Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Synaptic Static, ...).

e. 6-th level and higher spells are very scarce resources, only one slot per level for a day. So I don't think it is good to have too many of them. I tried to respect this principle: eight 1st-level spells; five 2dn-level spells; four 3rd-level spells; six 4th-level spells; six fifth-level spells; one sixth-level spell; two seventh-level spell; two eighth-level spells.

f. I will try to get Mirror Image and/or Rope Trick from loots/shops.


What do you think?

[Bobthewizard]

What do you think?

I'd like to see you go through and discuss which spells you plan to prepare on a generic adventuring day. Maybe by level like you did with spells in your spell book. You have a lot of spells that require preparation and won't be able to prepare them all, so you'll have some tough choices to make.

It looks like you have 7 spells that you don't need to prepare - detect magic, find familiar, phantom steed, leomunds tiny hut, contingency, rays telepathic bond, and antipathy/sympathy. At level 15, that leaves 27 spells for 20 preparation slots.

[yisopo]

I'd like to see you go through and discuss which spells you plan to prepare on a generic adventuring day. Maybe by level like you did with spells in your spell book. You have a lot of spells that require preparation and won't be able to prepare them all, so you'll have some tough choices to make.

It looks like you have 7 spells that you don't need to prepare - detect magic, find familiar, phantom steed, leomunds tiny hut, contingency, rays telepathic bond, and antipathy/sympathy. At level 15, that leaves 27 spells for 20 preparation slots.
Good catch! :smallbiggrin:

From those 27 I can remove:
- Sleep (not so effective from level 5+)
- Mage Armor (scroll)
- Gift of Alacrity (I have +11 Initiative right now, +12 at level 12. Anyway I will create a scroll for 10+ level if I need.)

So 24 spells for 20 preparation slots. Any advice to fix it? :-)