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sandmote
2022-10-24, 10:51 AM
This page on the homebrewery (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/PjFClqwyJP3-).

Themed as a rogue that can attack as a reaction as they move away from a target without provoking an attack of opportunity. Additionally tied to traps for something they can do outside combat, even if the subclass is still pretty limited in benefits outside a dungeon.

Fluff
Trapbreakers are one of the lasting stereotypes of agile adventurers. Trained in spotting threats in vaults and tombs, trapbreakers are valuable to anyone attempting to loot or built such systems. The same training that allows them to identify and escape in the slightest openings a trap leaves allows trapbreakers to strike in the slightest openings left in a fight.


Stinging Retreat
Starting at 3rd level, you learn to trip up your enemies even as you escape their machinations. When you leave a creature’s reach on your turn and the creature can’t or doesn’t make a opportunity attack targeting you, you can make a melee weapon attack against the creature as a reaction bonus action. On a hit, the next attack made against the target before the end of your next turn has advantage on the attack roll.

Enchanted Defense
At 3rd level you learn a small amount of magic to avoid being entangled by unexpected attacks. You learn the Resistance cantrip. Additionally, you can cast the Detect Traps (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?640618-Replacement-for-Find-Traps) spell once without requiring a spell slot and regain the ability to do so at the end of a short or long rest.

Ready for Threats
Beginning at 9th level you add your proficiency bonus to initiative checks.

Reflexive Escape
By 9th level you’ve gained a preternatural ability to sense areas endangering you. When you would set off a trap, you can manage to escape even in the last possible moment before it would harm you. When you trigger a trap, you can use your reaction to make an Intelligence check using Thieves tools against the trap’s save DC or against a DC of 8 + the trap’s attack bonus. On a success you negate the trap’s activation and can move to the nearest space of your choice outside the activation area of the trap. You cannot use this feature unless you enter the trap's area of effect using a movement speed.

Momentary Opportunity
Starting at 13th level you can use your Stinging Retreat feature whenever a creature makes an opportunity attack targeting you. You can only take this reaction bonus action after the opportunity attack hits or misses.

Trap Aid
By 17th level, you can strike into a trap without coming to harm yourself. When a trap inflicts damage, a spell effect, or any of the blinded, deafened, frightened, prone, or restrained conditions on a creature within your reach, you can make a melee weapon attack targeting that creature as a reaction. You can only take this reaction after the trap takes effect.


I... don't remember what I was thinking when I wrote in the original title. D&Done on the brain, I guess?

Trapbreaker: Building a Subclass Around Off-Turn Sneak Attack

Loek
2022-10-25, 08:10 AM
Stinging Retreat & Momentary Opportunity
Both of these use your movement, on your turn ==> how is this "off-turn sneak attack" related? (Not that I mind, off turn sneak attack is one of the things that One D&D is targeting for a reason)
More importantly, this makes it possible (and from level 13 on, guaranteed) that your Rogue is getting a bonus action (and possible attack to the face) costing extra attack. Which might be a bit much.
That said, two weapon fighting can go the same way assuming 2 equal weapons.
Conclusion: All in all a flavorful idea, but I'm not certain how this'll fit in with the rest of 5e's idea of balance. (Or alternatively if it'll add much)

Reflexive Escape
Wouldn't it make more sense that you'd roll against the level of complexity of the trap. instead of against how it would hit/effect you? (Aka: a rushed version of disable trap)
Assuming of course that "negate the trap’s activation" means that the trap remains ready to be sprung afterwards.
While the int+thieves tools prof makes sense... would you need to be wielding the thieves tools at the moment? Thematically a dex+int roll might make more sense and doesn't cause any weird requirements.
Finally, I'd put some sort of limit on this. Prof mod per long rest maybe? if not once per short rest/long rest.

Ready for Threats is a nice buff, if a bit boring (but it shares its level with the far more interesting and flavorful Reflexive Escape, so that should be fine)
And Trap Aid is an interesting idea (more ways to trigger reactions is always fun), but at level 17 probably way to late to be of any use. (Maybe swap it with the level 13 one?)

Yakk
2022-10-25, 09:53 AM
This seems to use bonus actions as reactions. Bonus actions aren't reactions?

sandmote
2022-10-25, 09:15 PM
This seems to use bonus actions as reactions. Bonus actions aren't reactions? I have no idea why I made that error. Thanks for the catch.


Stinging Retreat & Momentary Opportunity
More importantly, this makes it possible (and from level 13 on, guaranteed) that your Rogue is getting a bonus action (and possible attack to the face) costing extra attack. Which might be a bit much.
That said, two weapon fighting can go the same way assuming 2 equal weapons. It requires you to move and opens up the possibility to using a rapier + an open hand/something else you'd want, compared to a someone using two weapon fighting.


Wouldn't it make more sense that you'd roll against the level of complexity of the trap. instead of against how it would hit/effect you? (Aka: a rushed version of disable trap)
Assuming of course that "negate the trap’s activation" means that the trap remains ready to be sprung afterwards. The intent is that you avoid springing the trap at the last second and still has to be dealt with; I didn't see a reason to limit the ability as it doesn't actually get rid of any threats, instead merely providing a last second chance to avoid activating a trap. If 5e has a number provided based on the trap's complexity I'm not aware of it, so I'm not clear how I'd set the DC using such a thing? There's a set of figures for the save DC and attack bonus traps should have based on whether they're meant to hinder, harm, or kill, so I figured making it work this way would mean the DM doesn't need to come up with a difference DC than what they've already got.

Would Slight of Hand (Intelligence) make more sense than Theives' Tools (Intelligence) for the check? I feel like the latter makes more sense for the character concept, as I expect understanding how traps function would be more relevant than raw reflexes once you risk triggering it. Or maybe Thieves' Tools (Dexterity), as you need to maneuver to avoid triggering the trap?


And Trap Aid is an interesting idea (more ways to trigger reactions is always fun), but at level 17 probably way to late to be of any use. (Maybe swap it with the level 13 one?) Was this the off turn sneak attack I was thinking of? I like the concept more than the execution, but as I think Momentary Opportunity is more relevant for the subclass than Trap Aid I figured I should give the former first. On the other hand the Mastermind gets Misdirection at 13th level, so it might work better to switch them. Hm.

Yakk
2022-10-26, 08:56 AM
Stinging Retreat
Starting at 3rd level, you learn to trip up your enemies even as you escape their machinations. When you leave a creature’s reach on your turn and the creature can’t or doesn’t make a opportunity attack targeting you, you can make a melee weapon attack against the creature as a reaction bonus action. On a hit, the next attack made against the target before the end of your next turn has advantage on the attack roll.
The action economy here is important.

The reaction move away and restriction to your turn means that you consume your reaction to get an extra attack on your turn. This doesn't get you an extra sneak attack.

If, however, the cost wasn't a reaction, or if it occurs off your turn, suddenly this doubles your damage output, as it can be used to reliably get an off-turn and on-turn sneak attack.

...

The downside is that this ability is getting complex. You move away (on your turn), and IF (they don't or can't attack), then you can REACT (on your turn), and IF (you hit) you get advantage (before the end of next turn).

Lots of little details -- conditions, requirements, etc -- and most of them matter.

It could use a pile of simplification.



Enchanted Defense
At 3rd level you learn a small amount of magic to avoid being entangled by unexpected attacks. You learn the Resistance cantrip. Additionally, you can cast the Detect Traps (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?640618-Replacement-for-Find-Traps) spell once without requiring a spell slot and regain the ability to do so at the end of a short or long rest.

Detect Traps is such an awful spell I don't think it should be given out as a feature.

It sucks both in how it is written and what it does.

Resistance cantrip isn't very good for unexpected attacks. Absorb Elements is closer.

Now, Rogues at 5 already have a way to halve damage as a reaction for free. Absorb Elements works on saves.


Ready for Threats
Beginning at 9th level you add your proficiency bonus to initiative checks.

Not sure this fits the achetype. I'd rather lean in further?


Reflexive Escape
By 9th level you’ve gained a preturnatural ability to sense areas endaering you. When you would set off a trap, you can manage to escape even in the last possible moment before it would harm you. When you trigger a trap, you can use your reaction to make an Intelligence check using Thieves tools against the trap’s save DC or against a DC of 8 + the trap’s attack bonus. On a success you negate the trap’s activation and move to the nearest space of your choice outside the activation area of the trap.

This requires "trap" be distinct from something else. Which it sometimes is.

It should be "can move" and a distance (your speed?) should be specified. As worded, this could be a 20 mile teleport.


Momentary Opportunity
Starting at 13th level you can use your Stinging Retreat feature whenever a creature makes an opportunity attack targeting you. You can only take this reaction bonus action after the opportunity attack hits or misses.

By this point you will have a build that can't be OA'd, like Mobile or easy access to Invisibility. Making this pretty redundant.


Trap Aid
By 17th level, you can strike into a trap without coming to harm yourself. When a trap inflicts damage, a spell effect, or any of the blinded, deafened, frightened, prone, or restrained conditions on a creature within your reach, you can make a melee weapon attack targeting that creature as a reaction. You can only take this reaction after the trap takes effect.

This is a strange ability. I could see it never coming into use, ever, in some games. Even games with traps.


Trapbreaker: Building a Subclass Around Off-Turn Sneak Attack
This build doesn't get off-turn sneak attack.

sandmote
2022-10-26, 01:36 PM
Detect Traps is such an awful spell I don't think it should be given out as a feature.

It sucks both in how it is written and what it does.

Resistance cantrip isn't very good for unexpected attacks. Detect Traps or Find Traps? If you did mean Detect Traps, could you go into more detail please, so I can fix it?

Would the following fluff fit better?

When you gain this archetype at 3rd level you learn a small amount of magic for locating and resisting traps, to help yourself and others.


It should be "can move" and a distance (your speed?) should be specified. As worded, this could be a 20 mile teleport.

By this point you will have a build that can't be OA'd, like Mobile or easy access to Invisibility. Making this pretty redundant. I'd still rather provide a benefit that removes the strict necessity for it. Any suggestions for replacements?

D&D_Fan
2022-10-27, 09:08 AM
Thoughts. Possibile Abilitites and Player Ideas:

Ability - Mechanical Knowhow: Gain access to a nonmagical ability as an at-will 'On/Off' cantrip except that it effects mechanical devices rather than electrical ones. This represents being able to casually prime and unprime traps.

Ability - Trap Tanker: Immunity to 'Damage Dealt by Traps' because Dungeon Delver cannot compete.

Player Idea - No Spring Chicken: Mechanical traps involving springs and similar mechanical mechanisms can be improved by introducing improved components. Beartraps and arrows and needles can be altered with a Tinker's Tools check so as to increase the size of the damage dice by one for bludgeoning, piecing or slashing traps.

Player Idea - Chemical Warfare: You can enhance the properties of traps that deal poison damage by applying more dangerous poisons, or traps that deal fire damage by adding extra fuel. And it will work.

Ability - Trapmancer: You can tap into the properties of magical glyphs and wards in order to 'On/Off' them or to improve them by adding an extra spell level (if applicable) once per long rest.

Ability - True Trapbreaker: You have expertise on Arcana and Tinker's Tools checks to completely ruin or break any traps, as well as how to repair traps if the need arises.

Player Idea - Weaponizer: Stick traps to the end of sticks to create better improvised weapons.