Candy-Coated Werewolf

[Taffimai]

Candy-Coated Werewolf



Grandma has everything ready for Halloween: spooky decorations, a witch outfit, atmospheric music and the pièce de résistance: a genuine cast-iron cauldron filled with delicious treats! She has temporarily placed it on top of the kitchen table to keep it out of reach of her granddaughter who is staying over. Of course, this is vastly underestimating the resourcefulness of little Loulou. When grandma has nodded off, she pushes one of the chairs out from under the table, climbs on top and just manages to reach over the top for her deserved sugary reward... or however many she can get her grubby little hand on.

The candies panic! This is not their destiny! They want to be handed out and bring joy to trick-or-treaters, not regurgitated onto the floor in twenty minutes by a gluttonous toddler! They need a plan, and they need it quick.



This is a standard werewolf/mafia game, more information on those can be found here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24375840)

Since this is my first game as narrator, the setup will be pretty basic:


20-25% of the players will be wolves, and depending on the number of players there will be some common PRs or neutrals
The game will be played on the Structured Games subforum
Discord will be used for private channels / wolf chat / dead chat
First day will last for around 72 hours, second and third day for 48 hours, and all subsequent days are 24 hours. Nights are always 24 hours
There are no intended bastard mechanics at play
Recruitment ends on 24 October and the game should start the day after
SoD/EoD is 17:00 my time (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25610585&postcount=38)



"I've got it!" shouted the taffy. The other candies warily looked in their direction. You never knew what to expect with taffy, they came out with the craziest thing first.

"Look," they continued, "clearly some of us will get eaten. But the little cretin can't see inside the cauldron. That means we have some control over who they get."

The cauldron fell silent. "...are you suggesting we sacrifice the most nourishing among us so she's no longer hungry?" someone proffered. All eyes veered involuntarily towards the chocolate bar, who immediately started to puff themself up to protest.

"Not at all!" the taffy interrupted hastily. "To the contrary, I think we should make sure she isn't rewarded for her behaviour." There was a short pause before the taffy cautiously continued, "I think what we should do is have a vote to see who we all think will be the least... popular, and hope Loulou will give up."

An approving murmur filled the cauldron only to be interrupted by a few loud voices. "That's not fair!" "Just because not everybody enjoys us doesn't mean you can just throw us out!" "It's a stupid plan and you're just suggesting it to avoid being eaten yourself!" "You know what, I don't think you're anybody's favourite either!"

...and before anyone could comment further, the taffy was heaved over the rim of the cauldron, where an unsuspecting Loulou watched as they tumbled down and onto the floor. There they will lie for the rest of our story, unable to influence events no matter how much they might want to.

"Bet you're salty now!"




To vote, use bold and red. When you make a different vote (or to unvote), edit your previous post and strike through the old vote.
Other than striking through old votes or minor cosmetic changes such as typos, please don't edit posts. Just make a new post if you want to correct yourself (double posting is fine).
Now that the game has started, please don't discuss the game outside this thread or the discord channels provided by the narrator.
Night actions are optional. If you forget to submit one, you will take no action.
There is no scry interference.
Talking at night is allowed.
Ties will be decided randomly.
Yes there was a reason for the costumes.
Good Luck & Have Fun!




Gac
AV
Wombat
Snow
Xumtiil
Cazero
Cultist
Rogan
Visor
Hollowkatt
Mrs McGinty
Cuthalion
Bladescape
Persolus
Murska
Flat => Serpentine


Gac
AV Mason
Wombat
Snow
Xumtiil
Cazero
Cultist Mason
Rogan
Visor
Hollowkatt Baner
Mrs McGinty Devil
Cuthalion
Bladescape
Persolus Serial Killer
Murska Watcher
Flat => Serpentine


Deadchat: Caoimhin, Batcathat, Kraken, Elenna



Links:

Recruitment (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650491-Candy-Coated-Werewolf-(WW-Mafia))
Day 1 Votecount 1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25619075&posted=1#post25619075) Votecount 2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25619923#post25619923) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25620889#post25620889)
Day 2 Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25621639&posted=1#post25621639) Votecount 1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25622332#post25622332) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25623102#post25623102)
Halloween Event Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25623128&posted=1#post25623128) Results (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25625017#post25625017)
Day 3 Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25623966#post25623966) Votecount 1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25625012#post25625012) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25626075&posted=1#post25626075)
Day 4 Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25626994&posted=1#post25626994) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25627859#post25627859)
Day 5 Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25628585#post25628585) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25629375#post25629375)
Day 6 Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25630323#post25630323) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25631243#post25631243)
Day 7 skipped
Day 8 Start (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25632132#post25632132) End (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650889-Candy-Coated-Werewolf&p=25632958#post25632958)


If you can see this thread then you are free to post. EoD is 17:00 my time on Friday.

[flat_footed]

Welcome back, Murska!

[Book Wombat]

The Number One gac3!

[Xumtiil]

I think flat_footed is trying to suck up to the narrator. I have my eyes on you.

[Snowblaze]

Xumtiil, how dare you snatch ultimate power from my grasp! (Not that I wanted ultimate power for myself, of course, I'm definitely not evil.)

[Cazero]

Voting for Snowblaze for now.

[Xumtiil]

Xumtiil, how dare you snatch ultimate power from my grasp! (Not that I wanted ultimate power for myself, of course, I'm definitely not evil.)

You're lucky you escaped with your life, Blaze of the Snow. I will have my vengeance yet.

Visor, Hollowkatt, Mrs McGinty, Cuthalion, Cazero - I know some are and some aren't new, but I haven't seen any games with you. Please tell me something about yourself (including preferred pronouns, if possible) so I don't make a fool of myself (moreso than usual)

[Mrs McGinty]

Hardlaim: Multivoter

Maybe you all are wolves!

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna, to make sure that the inevitable wagon on me is started by the shiftiest player in the game so nobody trusts it.

[Cazero]

Please tell me something about yourself (including preferred pronouns, if possible) so I don't make a fool of myself (moreso than usual)
I don't care enough about my gender to check if I'm not a he/him.

- - - Updated - - -

Also most of my experience with these games comes from Among Us, where the meta is quite different.

[hollowkatt]

You're lucky you escaped with your life, Blaze of the Snow. I will have my vengeance yet.

Visor, Hollowkatt, Mrs McGinty, Cuthalion, Cazero - I know some are and some aren't new, but I haven't seen any games with you. Please tell me something about yourself (including preferred pronouns, if possible) so I don't make a fool of myself (moreso than usual)

sup. I'm a he/him, answer to hollowkatt, hk, hollow, katt, moron.
I've been playing mafia on and off for about 20 years now. I've played on MiseTings, GoodGamery, Mafia Universe, The Syndicate, MafiaCafe, TheOrg, and a few other places I can't remember any more.

I enjoy being town more than mafia but am skilled at both.
I try to be chill, sometimes I fail at it :(

- - - Updated - - -


AvatarVecna, to make sure that the inevitable wagon on me is started by the shiftiest player in the game so nobody trusts it.

cool I'm down
AvatarVecna

always oblige someone voting for themselves.

[Snowblaze]

Voting for Snowblaze for now.

Hi! Any particular reason you want me dead, or have I reached the stage where people don't need reasons to want me dead?


You're lucky you escaped with your life, Blaze of the Snow. I will have my vengeance yet.


Your vengeance? I worked with you against my better judgement when I could have killed you, and you claim I have wronged you?

[Persolus]

Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round!

- - - Updated - - -

From Google's random number generator, I nominate Cuthalion. Nothing personal, probably will change once we get data!

[Rogan]

Hello everybody!

In order to test a theory wolf!AV proposed about wolf!flat last game:

flat_footed

[Cazero]

Hi! Any particular reason you want me dead, or have I reached the stage where people don't need reasons to want me dead?
This is day one. I rolled dice.

[flat_footed]

Hello everybody!

In order to test a theory wolf!AV proposed about wolf!flat last game:

flat_footed

I mean, town and wolf flat both don't like votes. :smalltongue:

[Rogan]

I mean, town and wolf flat both don't like votes. :smalltongue:

And both of them get more active, so I might actually get to form a read on them. I count this as an absolute win :smalltongue:

[hollowkatt]

Xumtiil

ten characters

[3SecondCultist]

Rogan, because they have been actively town each game and I distrust that.

[flat_footed]

And both of them get more active, so I might actually get to form a read on them. I count this as an absolute win :smalltongue:

The trick is both town and wolf flat act sus as hell.

[Rogan]

Rogan, because they have been actively town each game and I distrust that.

This clearly means you want the wolves to win


The trick is both town and wolf flat act sus as hell.

Oh, they do? Unfortunately I can't remember Town!Flat. It's been way too long since I've had a chance to interact with him. What can you tell me about him?

[Book Wombat]

Who's been naughty and who's been—wait wrong time.
Uh, Time to Trick and Treat!

[gac3]

The Number One gac3!
Hardlaim Seer
Why not do some classic OMGUS, considering I was already considering a vote on Book before game started. Now to look over things for real.

[Visor]

McGinty

Howdy all. Been quite a while since I've played here. Pretty much all new faces. Hope it's a good game.

[flat_footed]

This clearly means you want the wolves to win



Oh, they do? Unfortunately I can't remember Town!Flat. It's been way too long since I've had a chance to interact with him. What can you tell me about him?

There's not much to say, he's usually gone by Night 1.

[AvatarVecna]

Rogan, because they have been actively town each game and I distrust that.

I can confirm I'm not partnered with Rogan this game.

[Murska]

Hello all. Going to add a third vote on Xumtiil to see what comes of that.

[hollowkatt]

Hello all. Going to add a third vote on Xumtiil to see what comes of that.

I think the snowblade vote is ****posting. My vote is legit, what's the reasoning for yours?

[3SecondCultist]

This clearly means you want the wolves to win

Oh no, you found me out on D1 again.


I can confirm I'm not partnered with Rogan this game.

Noted. That gives me something to think about at least.


I think the snowblade vote is ****posting. My vote is legit, what's the reasoning for yours?

My vote on Rogan was not a serious one. Murska is one of several people I don't know from WW (before my time, though we have played a game or two of Total War together), so as unknown commodities in this context I will echo the question.

[Visor]

have you ever been just sitting around vibing while other people post 699 times in one game day but it's a small game so you didn't expect the activity to be so high and you made a joke about how hard the game is to follow and then people took your posts seriously like you couldn't follow the logic of the posts being made when really you were saying you didn't want to read all their **** but they've spent so many posts about trying to re-explain their reads to you in a different way that now you feel bad and don't want to tell them you just don't wanna read their posts at all but they've put so much effort into trying to work with you so you half heartedly agree because you're trying to be nice but then someone else comes in and says your agreeing with them contradicts your post from 29 hours ago so you get even more heat and all you wanted to do was shoot the **** with your friends but two of them subbed out and now the game is full of try hards that ate constantly and made mafia so unfun for you that you took a break and now you're regretting coming back but you can't say that because it'll sound like ate and you don't want to be a hypocrite so instead you just make something up to explain the contradiction because you still don't want to read 3k posts on day 1 but then your explanation contradicts another post you made and a third person starts pestering you about it so you spend the next 7 hours actively engaged in a game you don't want to be in because you feel some unreasonable sense of pride for not getting mischopped in games but really you want to just sub out like your friends did and then you eventually do talk your way out of it but the counterwagon flips villager so you sit there throughout night one stressing about how tomorrow is gonna be more of the same? Has that ever happened to you?

- - - Updated - - -

(the above post is a meme fwiw - but it is hilarious)

also cuth is a wolf :curtain:

[Snowblaze]

Huh. This is quieter than I expected.

(Though my expectations have been seriously skewed by D1 of last game.)

Xumtiil 3: Snowblaze, hollowkatt, Murska
Murska 2: flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
flat_footed 2: Xumtiil, Rogan
gac3 1: Book Wombat
Snowblaze 1: Cazero
AvatarVecna 1: AvatarVecna
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
Book Wombat 1: gac3
Mrs McGinty 1: Visor
"All" 1: Mrs McGinty

No posts: Cuthalion, bladescape

Still too asleep for thoughts, but have some anyway: I'd appreciate explanation from the other Xumtiil voters, and gac is giving me gut pings but considering town!gac quite frequently gives me gut pings that doesn't say much.

[flat_footed]

Huh. This is quieter than I expected.

The scariest part is the top poster. :smallcool:

[Cuthalion]

Visor, Hollowkatt, Mrs McGinty, Cuthalion, Cazero - I know some are and some aren't new, but I haven't seen any games with you. Please tell me something about yourself (including preferred pronouns, if possible) so I don't make a fool of myself (moreso than usual)

hullo

he/they

i played some ww here way back in the day, and in between i played a lot of ww elsewhere and also haven't played much in a couple years at this point

my hair is like a dark blonde color

- - - Updated - - -

3SecondCultist

here, have a naked vote

[Mrs McGinty]

all except ff, Murska, hk

[Xumtiil]

cool I'm down
AvatarVecna

always oblige someone voting for themselves.


Xumtiil

ten characters

You're wrong. Xumtiil is seven characters.
Also, bold move calling a naked vote legit. Let's see how that works out for you. Vote movements have been interesting, at least.

[Rogan]

The scariest part is the top poster. :smallcool:

It's a Halloween themed game, scary things are to beexpected. But it also might prove AV right. Voting for you makes you more active.
Now, if there only would be some more discussion of the game... (but yeah, hardly your fault)


You're wrong. Xumtiil is seven characters.

I have to admit, this made me grin.

So, now for something completely different:
As far as I know, Mrs McGinty is a veteran who took a break. Who played a game with her in the old times?

[Snowblaze]

You're wrong. Xumtiil is seven characters.
Also, bold move calling a naked vote legit. Let's see how that works out for you. Vote movements have been interesting, at least.
Have you drawn any conclusions from those vote movements?


all except ff, Murska, hk
Why? (In general, but flat in particular?)



So, now for something completely different:
As far as I know, Mrs McGinty is a veteran who took a break. Who played a game with her in the old times?
raises hand

We have two games together from two years ago when I was pretty new. I remember they were a pretty chaotic player who did a very good job of provoking activity and discussion but not such a good job of finding wolves. (No offence, limited sample size.)

Their play so far fits pretty much with my vague expectations.

[Murska]

I think the snowblade vote is ****posting. My vote is legit, what's the reasoning for yours?

It's not a familiar name for me, and I want to put some pressure on people to see what happens and where the votes move - hence a third vote. I don't have anything in particular against how they've played so far, no.

[Xumtiil]

Have you drawn any conclusions from those vote movements?


Hollowkatt jumped from AV very quickly the moment flat got two votes, and jumped on me. Murska joining then soon after was peculiar - it almost felt like they were protecting flat.
The only problem that I have with it is that it's too obvious, so likely wrong or only partially true. Definitely peculiar.

[3SecondCultist]

Hollowkatt jumped from AV very quickly the moment flat got two votes, and jumped on me. Murska joining then soon after was peculiar - it almost felt like they were protecting flat.
The only problem that I have with it is that it's too obvious, so likely wrong or only partially true. Definitely peculiar.

I think it's too early to be making those kinds of conclusions. No significant wagons yet, no cases made against anyone, and no claims (not that I really expect there to be until anyone has to emergency claim). Then again, as Snow pointed out this is a drastically different D1 than last game. I'm not expecting as much uncertainty due to a more generally defined set of game parameters, which should allow for more defined reads.

What's going to trip me up is all of the new faces (of which you are one). I'd like to think I'm getting a better sense for the folks I've played with: Rogan, Snow, AV, flat, gac, Book, Persolus, etc - if not a good one necessarily - but there are a number of people that I have never been in a WW Mafia game with.

So I'm watching you. :mitd:

[Snowblaze]

Hollowkatt jumped from AV very quickly the moment flat got two votes, and jumped on me. Murska joining then soon after was peculiar - it almost felt like they were protecting flat.
The only problem that I have with it is that it's too obvious, so likely wrong or only partially true. Definitely peculiar.

What do you make of Murska's explanation for his vote?

I think it's too early to be making those kinds of conclusions. No significant wagons yet, no cases made against anyone, and no claims (not that I really expect there to be until anyone has to emergency claim). Then again, as Snow pointed out this is a drastically different D1 than last game. I'm not expecting as much uncertainty due to a more generally defined set of game parameters, which should allow for more defined reads.

What's going to trip me up is all of the new faces (of which you are one). I'd like to think I'm getting a better sense for the folks I've played with: Rogan, Snow, AV, flat, gac, Book, Persolus, etc - if not a good one necessarily - but there are a number of people that I have never been in a WW Mafia game with.

So I'm watching you. :mitd:
For some reason I thought you'd played with Xumtiil before, but apparently this is only your third game.

Do you have any opinions on the alignments of the players you've played with before yet? (Apologies for the grammatical awkwardness of that sentence.)

[3SecondCultist]

For some reason I thought you'd played with Xumtiil before, but apparently this is only your third game.

Do you have any opinions on the alignments of the players you've played with before yet? (Apologies for the grammatical awkwardness of that sentence.)

Not yet, honestly. I've been waiting to see what kinds of wagons form and look for vote movements and cases, but it's too spread out right now for me to make any serious statements.

AV made a weird comment that I called her out on that she has yet to explain, but that's more town to me than wolf - if she was scum, I don't see the logic behind specifically claiming to not be partnered with someone other than WIFOM, but doing that on D1 when there are no wagons is absolutely inviting the 'voting her anyway to be safe', which I just don't see wolf!AV doing after how damn hard she fought last game to claw out that win. She's not that careless.

Besides that: Rogan is always town (until he isn't, heh), but hasn't posted too much this game yet. You have been a neutral twice in a row for me now but read fairly townish, so I'm watching you too. Persolus and flat haven't posted much beyond what they did last game (inactive is null for both of them, as far as I'm concerned). gac was Narrator, so I'll have to go back to read other games to see if I can compare behaviours.

I know it's too early to start solving, but I'd really like to redeem myself after last game. :smallsmile:

[flat_footed]

Hollowkatt jumped from AV very quickly the moment flat got two votes, and jumped on me. Murska joining then soon after was peculiar - it almost felt like they were protecting flat.
The only problem that I have with it is that it's too obvious, so likely wrong or only partially true. Definitely peculiar.

I see no problem with people jumping to my defense out of the goodness in their hearts.

[Xumtiil]

I think it's too early to be making those kinds of conclusions.


What do you make of Murska's explanation for his vote?

It's not so much a conclusion than an observation. Hollowkatt's was probably a pressure vote, same as with Murska, which is understandable and perfectly fine. I just found the timing interesting, especially since Hollowkatt hasn't said why he voted for me, other than that it was "legit".

[hollowkatt]

You're wrong. Xumtiil is seven characters.
Also, bold move calling a naked vote legit. Let's see how that works out for you. Vote movements have been interesting, at least.

naked <> not legit
It's clearly not a ****posting vote/rvs vote, it got your attention in a certain kind of way, and the pushback I'm receiving from you about it is also interesting to me. I'm going to sit and think about it for a bit and see how I feel later.

- - - Updated - - -


It's not so much a conclusion than an observation. Hollowkatt's was probably a pressure vote, same as with Murska, which is understandable and perfectly fine. I just found the timing interesting, especially since Hollowkatt hasn't said why he voted for me, other than that it was "legit".

tbh I was waiting to see if anyone would ask me why I voted for you but this is really the first indication that any one is curious.

It struck me, after I'd answered your original post about background information on people you've not played with before, that I've seen that type of post used to good effect by wolves before which got me concerned that maybe you were looking for an easy entry point into the game by asking about non-game related things which lets you have a conversation with those people without actually having to solve or contribute.

Your play continuing from there hasn't filled me with confidence as it's primarily focused on my vote on you, and by extension others votes on you. It kinda feels like you're concerned you're gathering votes already.

[Snowblaze]

tbh I was waiting to see if anyone would ask me why I voted for you but this is really the first indication that any one is curious.

It struck me, after I'd answered your original post about background information on people you've not played with before, that I've seen that type of post used to good effect by wolves before which got me concerned that maybe you were looking for an easy entry point into the game by asking about non-game related things which lets you have a conversation with those people without actually having to solve or contribute.

Your play continuing from there hasn't filled me with confidence as it's primarily focused on my vote on you, and by extension others votes on you. It kinda feels like you're concerned you're gathering votes already.

ftr I was curious but I figured you were probably waiting to see how people in general/Xumtiil in particular reacted before explaining.

I can see where you're coming from, though I am... still trying to work out whether I agree.

I'd say the last point isn't necessarily valid since a) I did specifically ask him about his opinions on that stuff and b) it's about the only major event of the game so far.

That being said... I do think his initial response to pressure was an overreaction, and I do think that sort of overreaction is more likely to come from a wolf. (Note to self: check town!Xumtiil's responses to pressure at some point.)

Second-guessing myself a lot, but it's decent enough for page two.

[Taffimai]

Current Votecount



Murska 2: Flat, Cultist
Gac 1: Wombat
Flat 2: Xumtiil, Rogan
Xumtiil 3: Snow, Hollowkatt, Murska
Snow 1: Cazero
AV 1: AV
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
Wombat 1: Gac
McGinty 1: Visor
Cultist 1: Cuthalion
"all except ff, Murska, hk" 1: McGinty

Not voting: Bladescape



There are 48 hours left in Day 1

[Persolus]

all except ff, Murska, hk

...is there a specific reason why a) you initially voted "all", as opposed to random/not voting and b) why you decided to exempt ff, Murska and hk?

This whole question, I just realised, is kind of seconding Rogan's [EDIT: Snowblaze asked the question, not Rogan], but I typed it out before my brain comprehended his, so I'll ask it anyways.

[Book Wombat]

"all except ff, Murska, hk" 1: McGinty

Wait, that's allowed? Now I'm tempted to vote for "all threats to town".

[Snowblaze]

...is there a specific reason why a) you initially voted "all", as opposed to random/not voting and b) why you decided to exempt ff, Murska and hk?

This whole question, I just realised, is kind of seconding Rogan's, but I typed it out before my brain comprehended his, so I'll ask it anyways.

glares

I believe you mean my question, not Rogan's?

(If it's not obvious I'm not seriously offended.)

[Persolus]

glares

I believe you mean my question, not Rogan's?

(If it's not obvious I'm not seriously offended.)

Apologies. Yes. As you can see my brain is working great this morning.

- - - Updated - - -


Wait, that's allowed? Now I'm tempted to vote for "all threats to town".

Well, the issue with that is everyone is a threat to the town, if they play well/poorly enough.

[Rogan]

I'm still a bit busy, so this will eventually be a short post.

Snow, thanks for your answer. I think especially the part about not being good at finding wolves is interesting. In your opinion, is she better at finding town?

And, since it seems impolite to talk about someone who is here:
Hi Mrs McGinty! Nice to meet you.
Would you agree that you are better at generating discussions than hunting wolves on your own?

Also, in order to test something:
A wolf

@Taffi, thanks a lot for the midday vote count and timing info. It's a nice service from a narrator.

@3Sec I was a wolf some time ago. I don't like it very much, but I am not terrible at it. Although in oder to be really good, I need some good partners.

[hollowkatt]

ftr I was curious but I figured you were probably waiting to see how people in general/Xumtiil in particular reacted before explaining.

I can see where you're coming from, though I am... still trying to work out whether I agree.

I'd say the last point isn't necessarily valid since a) I did specifically ask him about his opinions on that stuff and b) it's about the only major event of the game so far.

That being said... I do think his initial response to pressure was an overreaction, and I do think that sort of overreaction is more likely to come from a wolf. (Note to self: check town!Xumtiil's responses to pressure at some point.)

Second-guessing myself a lot, but it's decent enough for page two.

yeah I can see how my last point might not be as valid if Xum is just responding to what you've asked them.
I think the towniest part of Xums response was when they said it would be obvs and early for a wolf pack to start defending someone by shifting votes around. I'd like to see Xum press forward with follow-ups to their original post questions that have been answered because it still seems like busy work to me.

[AvatarVecna]

Noted. That gives me something to think about at least.

I'm also not partnered with Murska. :smallwink:

[Snowblaze]

Snow, thanks for your answer. I think especially the part about not being good at finding wolves is interesting. In your opinion, is she better at finding town?


That probably came out a bit harsher than I intended, sorry. Two games isn't really a large enough sample size for me to definitely conclude that, but in Midwest they townread the most active wolves and wolfread several townies (in Harry Potter they were poisoned D2 after a D1 which is charitably described as an utter mess (not of their making)).

And... yeah, I'd have to go back and reread Midwest to get a better idea. I will do that at some indefinite future point.

[Mrs McGinty]

all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb

[Snowblaze]

all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb

Pocket attempt denied ;)

(Seriously, though, can you answer my/Persolus's questions please?)

[Mrs McGinty]

(Seriously, though, can you answer my/Persolus's questions please?)

later

10charactersyoupervert

[Persolus]

later

10charactersyoupervert

I am very much looking forward to this.

I don't know much about "typical PRs" for mafia besides things like Cop, Doctor, SK and Vig (as Utropia was ... most definitely not typical), so could someone let me know if there's a role which gives you information during the day?

That or you're just trying to avoid telling us what you're voting until you get to it, but you're being dramatic on the way.

However, if you're trying something cool and me digging around messes with it, I'll stop bothering you until you answer.

[Rogan]

I don't know much about "typical PRs" for mafia besides things like Cop, Doctor, SK and Vig (as Utropia was ... most definitely not typical), so could someone let me know if there's a role which gives you information during the day?


Disclaimer: the following is from my own experience.
Day powers are less common. There most common might be Masons, who can talk to each other in private. But this won't give new info on its own, only a second point of view. It is a useful power, especially since usually, they will know they can trust each other.
If you are interested, you could also take a look here (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/) to see if you find something.

However, speculations about the power of other people early on is usually more helpful for the wolves. Especially if you see someone hinting at a role, it's better to keep quiet about this and make yourself a note (maybe in your chat with Taffi, she probably would like the chance to see your line of thoughts).

[Murska]

I'm disappointed in AvatarVecna still voting for themselves and not doing any solving at all. flat_footed gets a spot on the list as well, for posting mainly jokes but entirely in a kind of self-defense with no thoughts on any other player. I also got a bad vibe out of Persolus's posts.

Aside from that, there's a handful of people who haven't said anything important either way.

Mrs McGinty, Snowblaze, hollowkatt, 3SecondCultist have all done enough to make me look the other way for the time being.

[Xumtiil]

I'm disappointed in AvatarVecna still voting for themselves and not doing any solving at all. flat_footed gets a spot on the list as well, for posting mainly jokes but entirely in a kind of self-defense with no thoughts on any other player. I also got a bad vibe out of Persolus's posts.

Aside from that, there's a handful of people who haven't said anything important either way.

Mrs McGinty, Snowblaze, hollowkatt, 3SecondCultist have all done enough to make me look the other way for the time being.

In Persolus' defense, it is his second game, and I'm not getting any vibes from him other than "all of this is still new". AvatarVecna also has a tendency to do very little interaction on Day 1 and if she survives to go all in from D2 onwards. I think not seeing much movement there is NAI.

[Mrs McGinty]

all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus

[Visor]

Cazero on a hunch
Xumtiil seems fine enough for me d1

can go either way of persolus rn - there is a post of his that i had a real bad knee jerk reaction to - but its possible im reading into things too much

[gac3]

I'm disappointed in AvatarVecna still voting for themselves and not doing any solving at all. flat_footed gets a spot on the list as well, for posting mainly jokes but entirely in a kind of self-defense with no thoughts on any other player. I also got a bad vibe out of Persolus's posts.

Aside from that, there's a handful of people who haven't said anything important either way.

Mrs McGinty, Snowblaze, hollowkatt, 3SecondCultist have all done enough to make me look the other way for the time being.

To be fair to AV, they probably won't start solving until at least day 2. That's just their meta now a days. Their logic (assuming I remember and understand it accurately) makes a lot of sense.


Also, I kept forgetting this was around but like small town lean on Mrs. McGinty on very little reason, more instinct. Strong, near locked town lean on Book Wombat. Screw it, let's lock that stuff in. Book is town. Undeniably. No I will not explain why. Look for it though. If you see it chime in but don't tell nobody. We can explain later.


I need to go find a new person to vote for.

[Mrs McGinty]

Cazero on a hunch

can you unpack that hunch?

[gac3]

I'm disappointed in AvatarVecna still voting for themselves and not doing any solving at all. flat_footed gets a spot on the list as well, for posting mainly jokes but entirely in a kind of self-defense with no thoughts on any other player. I also got a bad vibe out of Persolus's posts.

Aside from that, there's a handful of people who haven't said anything important either way.

Mrs McGinty, Snowblaze, hollowkatt, 3SecondCultist have all done enough to make me look the other way for the time being.


Huh. This is quieter than I expected.

(Though my expectations have been seriously skewed by D1 of last game.)

Xumtiil 3: Snowblaze, hollowkatt, Murska
Murska 2: flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
flat_footed 2: Xumtiil, Rogan
gac3 1: Book Wombat
Snowblaze 1: Cazero
AvatarVecna 1: AvatarVecna
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
Book Wombat 1: gac3
Mrs McGinty 1: Visor
"All" 1: Mrs McGinty

No posts: Cuthalion, bladescape

Still too asleep for thoughts, but have some anyway: I'd appreciate explanation from the other Xumtiil voters, and gac is giving me gut pings but considering town!gac quite frequently gives me gut pings that doesn't say much.

Haha. Gut pings off of one post. Snow, you so paranoid. Feels more like town snow tbh. This is great. I've already got 3 town reads. I'm on top of it this game. The trick is finding the wolf reads.

[Visor]

Voting for Snowblaze for now.


I don't care enough about my gender to check if I'm not a he/him.

- - - Updated - - -

Also most of my experience with these games comes from Among Us, where the meta is quite different.


This is day one. I rolled dice.

this is their posting so far itg

their first post is... written very cautiously? with the for now etc - feels like just getting something out of the way.

2nd post is just a response - no proactivity

3rd post is just a response - no proactivity

its clear they've read somewhat - but had nothing to add to the game, just respond to stuff that looks at them. its no slam dunk, but on a more casual site like gitp, sometimes you get wolves that do this kind of thing where they sit in the shadows until someone mentions them. (they also havent really joked around or done anything else - which would make this read null)

[Mrs McGinty]

all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus, gac

[Visor]

i dont think that read is a slam dunk in any sense - but just noting i would like to see cazero start being proactive in their play

[Mrs McGinty]

i dont think that read is a slam dunk in any sense - but just noting i would like to see cazero start being proactive in their play

got any suspects?

- - - Updated - - -

beyond cazero

[gac3]

all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus, gac

Aww. Thanks

[Mrs McGinty]

all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus

[Visor]

got any suspects?

- - - Updated - - -

beyond cazero

nothing really stands out

early days so far

[Persolus]

Disclaimer: the following is from my own experience.
Day powers are less common. There most common might be Masons, who can talk to each other in private. But this won't give new info on its own, only a second point of view. It is a useful power, especially since usually, they will know they can trust each other.
If you are interested, you could also take a look here (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/) to see if you find something.

However, speculations about the power of other people early on is usually more helpful for the wolves. Especially if you see someone hinting at a role, it's better to keep quiet about this and make yourself a note (maybe in your chat with Taffi, she probably would like the chance to see your line of thoughts).


I also got a bad vibe out of Persolus's posts.

...yeah I realised after posting that this was the sort of thing that was brought up last game - unless it's something that actually helps town, info helps the wolves. Thank you for the resources, Rogan, and I give y'all my word (as much as that's worth) that my post was in both good faith and big dumb.

Also, yay, Mrs Mcginty trusts me?

[Mrs McGinty]

Also, yay, Mrs Mcginty trusts me?

reread the thread

if you had to chop one player right now, who would it be?

[AvatarVecna]

I think I saw someone vote flat_footed? Nope, incorrect, change your vote. flat is not a D1 lynch anymore, that note is overplayed.

[bladescape]

I am not a vanilla role.

One of McGinty's non-votes is 100% town.

McGinty is also town. Not 100% but high enough you should go with it for now.

I have played with all but Cazero and for that reason I'm vetoing Caz as a D1.

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome to Round 2: Blade on vacation boogaloo

[hollowkatt]

To be fair to AV, they probably won't start solving until at least day 2. That's just their meta now a days. Their logic (assuming I remember and understand it accurately) makes a lot of sense.


Also, I kept forgetting this was around but like small town lean on Mrs. McGinty on very little reason, more instinct. Strong, near locked town lean on Book Wombat. Screw it, let's lock that stuff in. Book is town. Undeniably. No I will not explain why. Look for it though. If you see it chime in but don't tell nobody. We can explain later.


I need to go find a new person to vote for.

I struggle to understand why someone who doesn't really get going till D2 would open the game voting for themselves. It feels icky on some level. If they really do get going tomorrow good, if they don't I think more pressure there makes some sense

[gac3]

I struggle to understand why someone who doesn't really get going till D2 would open the game voting for themselves. It feels icky on some level. If they really do get going tomorrow good, if they don't I think more pressure there makes some sense

I get that. But honestly Xi and AV both have long reputations for self voting. Even for no reason. Not trying to defend AV as much as provide some context. The townies AV looks, the more likely they are a wolf. They won last game by convincing two dead players that they were town

[bladescape]

I struggle to understand why someone who doesn't really get going till D2 would open the game voting for themselves. It feels icky on some level. If they really do get going tomorrow good, if they don't I think more pressure there makes some sense

This is bread and bitter AV of both alignments.

That being said there's a dumb reason I could lean AV town and no, I'm not elaborating

- - - Updated - - -

Bread and butter*

[AvatarVecna]

I struggle to understand why someone who doesn't really get going till D2 would open the game voting for themselves. It feels icky on some level. If they really do get going tomorrow good, if they don't I think more pressure there makes some sense

TL;DR it's just my meta. I'm either D1 wagon as revenge for previous games or N1 NK, rather frequently when I rand town. I self-vote because I used to have a tradition of self-voting at least once in every single game. I self-vote in IRL games. I self-voted in champs. I once self-voted so suspiciously three wolves tripped trying to justify voting for me because they thought it was a trap somehow. It's not generally a good strategy by any means but meeeeeeeeeh.

[hollowkatt]

I get that. But honestly Xi and AV both have long reputations for self voting. Even for no reason. Not trying to defend AV as much as provide some context. The townies AV looks, the more likely they are a wolf. They won last game by convincing two dead players that they were town


This is bread and bitter AV of both alignments.

That being said there's a dumb reason I could lean AV town and no, I'm not elaborating

- - - Updated - - -

Bread and butter*

I know quite a few people who are potatoes D1 and then turn it on. I don't have a problem with that at all. I do think it's worth paying attention to and worth thinking about what would happen if they don't turn it on, or turn it on in a weird way
blade idc what your reason is but I'm gonna town lean you for saying you have one like that

[Persolus]

reread the thread

if you had to chop one player right now, who would it be?

okay, reread the thread, and it looks like you think I'm more town than gac and et al., but less town than ff, murska, hk, Rogan, and snowblaze.

Umm... well, my random number gave me Cuthalion, but I don't know if I'd want them lynched, as it wouldn't tell us anything. Null read there.

My interest is piqued by percentages bladescape is giving out, but whatever his source is, this is the good kind of info to talk about, not my misguided role-guessing attempts. I'm gonna assume a slight town lean, simply because those are very specific and bold claims to make that: wolf!bladescape would have no reason to tell the truth about them, as it's info that only helps Town, and if wolf!bladescape were to lie, we'd know who to turn on next lynch. Also (since Word Of Taffy states there "might be neutral roles") if he was a SK or other violent neutral, he probably wouldn't want attention drawn to himself, and if he's a neutral neutral, then there's no reason he would lie. So, of potential town leans, guaranteed to get good info on a flip, but still, town lean.

AV: i totally buy the D1 argument - personally I am just pushing myself to find reads right now because I'm new and I'd like to give people more data on how I think and play. So, null atm.

McGinty: bladescape says she is most likely town. the whole rapid-fire vote thing is way more attention grabbing than a wolf or neutral would presumably want, so I'm going with a slight town lean, subject to change as her voting narrows down.

Snowblaze: she died way too fast last game for me to get any feel for her "normal" - but I do note that, despite being one of the top posters, she has done not much more than ask questions (of others and her memory of previous games). So, null, so far, but I'm intrigued.

Rogan: I do find it curious that he would attempt the "a wolf" vote, but perhaps he already got the answer he wanted from Taffimai. I do find it odd that he is risking throwing away a vote. However, he deliberately took the initiative to shut down my previously-mentioned misguided-role-guessing, which was a conversation that could have helped wolves, so the *faintest* of town leans. *Faintest*

huh. I have gone through a bunch of people and posts and still haven't found a worthy chop-target.
I'm just going to submit this before I get ninja'ed and continue trying to make my brain work.

[AvatarVecna]

If I were forced to pick a real vote, Book Wombat would be my chop of choice.

[Book Wombat]

If I were forced to pick a real vote, Book Wombat would be my chop of choice.

*gasp*
Wombat steak? How could you?!

[bladescape]

I know quite a few people who are potatoes D1 and then turn it on. I don't have a problem with that at all. I do think it's worth paying attention to and worth thinking about what would happen if they don't turn it on, or turn it on in a weird way
blade idc what your reason is but I'm gonna town lean you for saying you have one like that

Hollowkatt

Pocket attempt denied

[hollowkatt]

Hollowkatt

Pocket attempt denied

interesting reaction

[Snowblaze]

Morning. Enough content that I can start properly digging into it now. Let's see:

- vague gut townleans on Persolus and Rogan

- Murska, elaborate on 3SC please? (Also I was about to wolfread him for switching to a counterwagon to himself before I realised he was switching away from the other counterwagon to himself. In that case maybe thinnest of town points? Xumtiil wagon probably had more of a case behind it/was easier to push)

- Visor, when you say "Xumtiil seems fine for D1" do you mean "Xumtiil seems towny enough to not want dead" or "I'm fine with killing Xumtiil D1"?

- gac... my gut is just screaming "kill gac with fire" but it might just be typical town!gac weirdness so I need to turn that over in my head and try (and fail) to come to a conclusion.

- Mrs McGinty can have tentative town points for retracting their gac non-vote but I still expect answers/explanation before EOD.

- I also have a bad reason to townread AV; incidentally bladescape having one is typical bladescape and very much NAI, but I can see how it would seem towny to someone who doesn't know bladescape, so...

- bladescape, hollowkatt, have you played together before? How well do you know each other?


tl;dr
Vague townleans: Persolus, Rogan, Mrs McGinty
Above null if I squint hard enough, but don't trust me on these: Murska, AvatarVecna
Hovering somewhere below null: gac3, Xumtiil

And everyone else remains null.

[AvatarVecna]

*gasp*
Wombat steak? How could you?!

POE is a cruel mistress sometimes.

[Visor]

i mean they seem fine enough to not kill d1

(mild town lean i guess but more just acknowledgement)

nobody got thoughts on cazero?

[Snowblaze]

i mean they seem fine enough to not kill d1

(mild town lean i guess but more just acknowledgement)

nobody got thoughts on cazero?

I can see where you're coming from, the "for now" thing is a decent point. But I think this is his first game of forum mafia so I'd prefer to give him a bit more time and see if he gets any townier.

[Cazero]

i dont think that read is a slam dunk in any sense - but just noting i would like to see cazero start being proactive in their play
I'm afraid you won't be able to get much more from me on day one. I tend to be passive when I got nothing to contribute, and I'm not experienced enough to try to WIFOM my way through the nothing burger we got yet.
But I'm still reading and might change my vote if I find something convincing.

[Visor]

oh if this is his first game nothing i said matters

back to the drawing board lol

- - - Updated - - -

flat_footed

you stand accused of the heinous crime of not supporting the la rams, how do you plead?

interested in your takes on the game so far if you have any

[gac3]

Cool. I'm feeling okay about voting Avatar Vecna now.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm as confident in them being a wolf as I am in Book Wombat being town.

- - - Updated - - -


- gac... my gut is just screaming "kill gac with fire" but it might just be typical town!gac weirdness so I need to turn that over in my head and try (and fail) to come to a conclusion.


If you want my opinion, it's entirely different to typical town!have weirdness. So that's sketchy.

Also, seriously? Are you really null on Book? Interesting...

Takes notes...

[gac3]

Actually... There is an argument that I could theoretically see AV making that would change my mind but probably not. Because it would at that point be an anti town move so I'm still fine with my vote.

- - - Updated - - -

Oops. Waited too long and made a new thing.

[Murska]

- Murska, elaborate on 3SC please? (Also I was about to wolfread him for switching to a counterwagon to himself before I realised he was switching away from the other counterwagon to himself. In that case maybe thinnest of town points? Xumtiil wagon probably had more of a case behind it/was easier to push)


I'm not looking into wagonomics before we have actual wagons and preferrably flips too. But 3SC has approached the game with apparent intent to dig in and figure things out, which gives them a stay of execution in my book.

[Book Wombat]

Feels weird, but I'm changing my vote to Avatar Vecna.

[Rogan]

Feels weird, but I'm changing my vote to Avatar Vecna.

Okay, got some minutes for this:
Who are you and what have you done to the real Book?

Okay, serious now, but a vote change from you feels very unusual. May I ask you how sure you are about AV?



Gac, one question for you:
Do you think you are not playing weird right now? Or what exactly is your pushback to Snows feeling?

[AvatarVecna]

BW breaking meta means I'm locking this vote in. Thunderdome!

[3SecondCultist]

"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

In an effort to follow suit, I will offer my commentary on reads and in the process provide my own.


okay, reread the thread, and it looks like you think I'm more town than gac and et al., but less town than ff, murska, hk, Rogan, and snowblaze.

Umm... well, my random number gave me Cuthalion, but I don't know if I'd want them lynched, as it wouldn't tell us anything. Null read there.

My interest is piqued by percentages bladescape is giving out, but whatever his source is, this is the good kind of info to talk about, not my misguided role-guessing attempts. I'm gonna assume a slight town lean, simply because those are very specific and bold claims to make that: wolf!bladescape would have no reason to tell the truth about them, as it's info that only helps Town, and if wolf!bladescape were to lie, we'd know who to turn on next lynch. Also (since Word Of Taffy states there "might be neutral roles") if he was a SK or other violent neutral, he probably wouldn't want attention drawn to himself, and if he's a neutral neutral, then there's no reason he would lie. So, of potential town leans, guaranteed to get good info on a flip, but still, town lean.

AV: i totally buy the D1 argument - personally I am just pushing myself to find reads right now because I'm new and I'd like to give people more data on how I think and play. So, null atm.

McGinty: bladescape says she is most likely town. the whole rapid-fire vote thing is way more attention grabbing than a wolf or neutral would presumably want, so I'm going with a slight town lean, subject to change as her voting narrows down.

Snowblaze: she died way too fast last game for me to get any feel for her "normal" - but I do note that, despite being one of the top posters, she has done not much more than ask questions (of others and her memory of previous games). So, null, so far, but I'm intrigued.

Rogan: I do find it curious that he would attempt the "a wolf" vote, but perhaps he already got the answer he wanted from Taffimai. I do find it odd that he is risking throwing away a vote. However, he deliberately took the initiative to shut down my previously-mentioned misguided-role-guessing, which was a conversation that could have helped wolves, so the *faintest* of town leans. *Faintest*

huh. I have gone through a bunch of people and posts and still haven't found a worthy chop-target.
I'm just going to submit this before I get ninja'ed and continue trying to make my brain work.

I agree that bladescape should get town points, if only for the certainty in their posts. There are three claims there: first that they're 'not a vanilla town role', second that 'one person on McGinty's non-vote list is town', and third that 'McGinty is (almost) confirmed town'. If blade had only made one or two of those claims, I might buy a wolf trying to steer the conversation. Three is too many, and too easy to check. If they prove to be wrong, well they'll be an obvious lynch target later. Your logic seems sound to me right now, so blade gets a town lean from me as well.

AV: reads town for me, not null. I know she is not solving too much - and the whole self-voting thing would look suspicious coming from pretty much anyone else - but I am not null reading her at the moment. She would not self vote and be vague about partnering with people if she were a wolf: I don't see the upsides. As blade has pointed out, this seems to be pretty typical AV play regardless of alignment, but she is obviously posting a fair bit and not trying to scumsolve. That points me more to town than not. Actually, based on her partner comments if she were to claim or even flip mason, I would not be in the least bit surprised.

McGinty: not going to lie, was tempted to OMGUS vote her, or even potentially vote her because her voting patterns annoy me. But yes, I by and large agree with your assessment here. The potential for WIFOM here would stronger to me than AV's self vote though, largely because I don’t really see her explaining her actions. bladescape's info is the only thing kicking this into townie territory, and even then I am putting an asterisk on it. In vouching for her, bladescape has effectively partnered them.

Snowblaze: Hm. She seems genuinely town in the sense that she is solving, but the last two games I played with her she did the same thing before flipping neutral (SK the first time, and a custom role last game). So I don't know how well I can read her. The paranoia looks good, but could be affected. Her asking questions doesn't seem too suspicious - this has been a slower start than the last game, so I suspect she is trying to prompt some discussion and see what folks say to start solving D2.

Rogan: I don't find it odd at all that Rogan is not seriously committing to a vote yet. Beyond the fact that he is busier this game than the last few, his town pattern seems to be putting a placeholder on, waiting to hear serious cases, and weighing them on their merits and overall cost/benefit to town. All else being equal, I expect we will see an actual vote with a rationale (and some directed questions) from him close to the end of the day. My town lean here is stronger than yours.

Concluding thoughts: one of the things I've learned is that going through a reads list and coming up with not much of anything can read as hedging and therefore wolfy. Even if either of us is wrong, I think it's better to commit to our gut leans and then adjust them on new confirmed information (death flips, mostly).


Morning. Enough content that I can start properly digging into it now. Let's see:

- vague gut townleans on Persolus and Rogan

- Murska, elaborate on 3SC please? (Also I was about to wolfread him for switching to a counterwagon to himself before I realised he was switching away from the other counterwagon to himself. In that case maybe thinnest of town points? Xumtiil wagon probably had more of a case behind it/was easier to push)

- Visor, when you say "Xumtiil seems fine for D1" do you mean "Xumtiil seems towny enough to not want dead" or "I'm fine with killing Xumtiil D1"?

- gac... my gut is just screaming "kill gac with fire" but it might just be typical town!gac weirdness so I need to turn that over in my head and try (and fail) to come to a conclusion.

- Mrs McGinty can have tentative town points for retracting their gac non-vote but I still expect answers/explanation before EOD.

- I also have a bad reason to townread AV; incidentally bladescape having one is typical bladescape and very much NAI, but I can see how it would seem towny to someone who doesn't know bladescape, so...

- bladescape, hollowkatt, have you played together before? How well do you know each other?


tl;dr
Vague townleans: Persolus, Rogan, Mrs McGinty
Above null if I squint hard enough, but don't trust me on these: Murska, AvatarVecna
Hovering somewhere below null: gac3, Xumtiil

And everyone else remains null.

See my comments above for my thoughts on Rogan, McGinty, and AV. I agree with you that McGinty needs to do some explaining (at first I wondered whether they could only post with their weird vote format but then they asked a question later, so that's out) before committing to a lean one way or another.

Are you willing to elaborate on your vague gut townlean on Persolus? I mostly agree with their reads, though we diverge on a few things. I want to make sure that I'm not discounting anyone out of turn.

Similarly with Murska, what is putting you 'above null if you squint hard enough'?

Regarding gac... yeah, I'm with you again here. I'm actually moving my vote to gac3 (mostly because I want to put some pressure on him).


Cool. I'm feeling okay about voting Avatar Vecna now.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm as confident in them being a wolf as I am in Book Wombat being town.

The last statement could be deliberately misleading. Please clarify your level of confidence about both AV being a wolf and Book being town.

I think you are either wrong or lying. Either way, that earns a vote from me until you explain your standing in more detail.

[Book Wombat]

Well, if you check my posts you might see why gac3 believes I'm town.
All according to my nefarious plan, muahahaha.

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Unless you're a wolf...

[Rogan]

Well, if you check my posts you might see why gac3 believes I'm town.
All according to my nefarious plan, muahahaha.

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Unless you're a wolf...

I know what gac means, yeah. (Although I took embarrassingly long to figure things out).
I think it's a good look for both of you.

Still, I'm wondering, are you only sure about AV cause she didn't get it, or is there something else?

[AvatarVecna]

Initial vote on BW was not because of vote change. The vote change is outside BW's meta, but that's not why they got a vote in the first place.

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Mild FoS on Rogan as well.

[Rogan]

Book and Gac are from my point of view as cleared as possible for day 1. There's still a small chance of this read being wrong, so if you feel like you've got evidence against them, please don't be afraid of presenting it.

AV is not necessarily a wolf, but I can see where they are coming from. If it really would come to a thunderdome, as AV herself has suggested, I'd vote for her.

Now, AV, even if you don't trust me, if you are town, I think you should either abandon the idea of a thunderdome, or present some really good reasons for your initial vote on Book. I agree that the vote change is highly unusual, but I strongly disagree with the conclusion that it's wolfy.

[AvatarVecna]

Book and Gac are from my point of view as cleared as possible for day 1. There's still a small chance of this read being wrong, so if you feel like you've got evidence against them, please don't be afraid of presenting it.

AV is not necessarily a wolf, but I can see where they are coming from. If it really would come to a thunderdome, as AV herself has suggested, I'd vote for her.

Now, AV, even if you don't trust me, if you are town, I think you should either abandon the idea of a thunderdome, or present some really good reasons for your initial vote on Book. I agree that the vote change is highly unusual, but I strongly disagree with the conclusion that it's wolfy.

First off: it's day 1. You are acting like the threshold for a chop choice is mega-high.

Second off: you've given exactly as many reasons for changing my vote as I've given for not changing my vote. You're not confirmed town, book's not confirmed town, so stop acting like you're in charge of this candy bag and that I've gotta convince you to have a chance.

Thirdly, it's just basic process of elimination.

3SecondCultist, Persolus, and Xumtiil are too new for me to wanna chop em this early. Cazero, Visor, Hollowkatt, MrsMcGinty, Cuthalion, and Murska don't play around here often if ever, and that'd be a bad way to say "hi". AvatarVecna, bladescape, Rogan, and flat_footed have a bad habit of dying early regardless of alignment. That leaves gac3, Book Wombat, and Snowblaze. gac ran the last game and tends to get scumread early for acting weird, so I'm willing to give him a pass for the moment. Snow has a tendency to get wagoned early but wiggle out of it, but also she died N1 last game due to bastard nonsense, so while I'm more willing to chop here, I'd still rather give her some time to catch her breath. That leaves BW, who I feel tends to last until endgame.

POE says BW for lynch.

[gac3]

Okay, got some minutes for this:
Who are you and what have you done to the real Book?

Okay, serious now, but a vote change from you feels very unusual. May I ask you how sure you are about AV?



Gac, one question for you:
Do you think you are not playing weird right now? Or what exactly is your pushback to Snows feeling?

Oh no real pushback besides a joke that I am actually trying to play this game a little differently. I feel as though I'm succeeding. But perhaps not.


"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

In an effort to follow suit, I will offer my commentary on reads and in the process provide my own.



I agree that bladescape should get town points, if only for the certainty in their posts. There are three claims there: first that they're 'not a vanilla town role', second that 'one person on McGinty's non-vote list is town', and third that 'McGinty is (almost) confirmed town'. If blade had only made one or two of those claims, I might buy a wolf trying to steer the conversation. Three is too many, and too easy to check. If they prove to be wrong, well they'll be an obvious lynch target later. Your logic seems sound to me right now, so blade gets a town lean from me as well.

AV: reads town for me, not null. I know she is not solving too much - and the whole self-voting thing would look suspicious coming from pretty much anyone else - but I am not null reading her at the moment. She would not self vote and be vague about partnering with people if she were a wolf: I don't see the upsides. As blade has pointed out, this seems to be pretty typical AV play regardless of alignment, but she is obviously posting a fair bit and not trying to scumsolve. That points me more to town than not. Actually, based on her partner comments if she were to claim or even flip mason, I would not be in the least bit surprised.

McGinty: not going to lie, was tempted to OMGUS vote her, or even potentially vote her because her voting patterns annoy me. But yes, I by and large agree with your assessment here. The potential for WIFOM here would stronger to me than AV's self vote though, largely because I don’t really see her explaining her actions. bladescape's info is the only thing kicking this into townie territory, and even then I am putting an asterisk on it. In vouching for her, bladescape has effectively partnered them.

Snowblaze: Hm. She seems genuinely town in the sense that she is solving, but the last two games I played with her she did the same thing before flipping neutral (SK the first time, and a custom role last game). So I don't know how well I can read her. The paranoia looks good, but could be affected. Her asking questions doesn't seem too suspicious - this has been a slower start than the last game, so I suspect she is trying to prompt some discussion and see what folks say to start solving D2.

Rogan: I don't find it odd at all that Rogan is not seriously committing to a vote yet. Beyond the fact that he is busier this game than the last few, his town pattern seems to be putting a placeholder on, waiting to hear serious cases, and weighing them on their merits and overall cost/benefit to town. All else being equal, I expect we will see an actual vote with a rationale (and some directed questions) from him close to the end of the day. My town lean here is stronger than yours.

Concluding thoughts: one of the things I've learned is that going through a reads list and coming up with not much of anything can read as hedging and therefore wolfy. Even if either of us is wrong, I think it's better to commit to our gut leans and then adjust them on new confirmed information (death flips, mostly).



See my comments above for my thoughts on Rogan, McGinty, and AV. I agree with you that McGinty needs to do some explaining (at first I wondered whether they could only post with their weird vote format but then they asked a question later, so that's out) before committing to a lean one way or another.

Are you willing to elaborate on your vague gut townlean on Persolus? I mostly agree with their reads, though we diverge on a few things. I want to make sure that I'm not discounting anyone out of turn.

Similarly with Murska, what is putting you 'above null if you squint hard enough'?

Regarding gac... yeah, I'm with you again here. I'm actually moving my vote to gac3 (mostly because I want to put some pressure on him).



The last statement could be deliberately misleading. Please clarify your level of confidence about both AV being a wolf and Book being town.

I think you are either wrong or lying. Either way, that earns a vote from me until you explain your standing in more detail.

As I've said. Book is town. I have full confidence in this. I have equal confidence that AV is not town. Book knows why I think this because Book did it on purpose because that's what book does. Even Rogan has admitted to realizing. AV however has either not noticed or elected to ignore it. Given the low number of Wombat posts it's impossible for them to miss if they looked. I know they would notice this because they are the one who taught me. Therefore the logical explanation is that they either aren't town or they didn't notice, in which case they aren't town.

[AvatarVecna]

As I've said. Book is town. I have full confidence in this. I have equal confidence that AV is not town.

Being 100% wrong about the latter is not convincing me you're 100% right about the former.

[gac3]

Being 100% wrong about the latter is not convincing me you're 100% right about the former.

The fact that you are still pushing book after they cleared themselves when I know you personally would see what they did, why would I not assume that means you aren't town.

[AvatarVecna]

The fact that you are still pushing book after they cleared themselves when I know you personally would see what they did, why would I not assume that means you aren't town.

They've done nothing that clears them.

[gac3]

They've done nothing that clears them.

If you were town, you would know what clears them.

[AvatarVecna]

If you were town, you would know what clears them.

You're making a bad assumption that less-than-perfectly-towny play on my part means I'm scumteamed.

[gac3]

Or at the very least you wouldn't say they were your top vote.

[AvatarVecna]

Or at the very least you wouldn't say they were your top vote.

I've given my explanation. If you didn't bother to read it, that's not my ****ing problem.

[gac3]

You're making a bad assumption that less-than-perfectly-towny play on my part means I'm scumteamed.

I'm making the assumption that you would recognize a move you taught me and not target the person using it for a lynch, since it is is heavy on "evidence this person is town"

[AvatarVecna]

I'm making the assumption that you would recognize a move you taught me and not target the person using it for a lynch, since it is is heavy on "evidence this person is town"

I still have literally zero idea what you're talking about.

[gac3]

I've given my explanation. If you didn't bother to read it, that's not my ****ing problem.

Sorry if I'm not wanting to lynch a near confirmed townie because everyone else is too new or has meta regarding them dying early. Vote me if you prefer. I certainly have less evidence than Book does going for them.

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I still have literally zero idea what you're talking about.

Which is why I'm confident you aren't town. If I'm wrong, I will apologize profusely later. However, even if you think I'm a moron or wrong about my assumption, if you were town, you (specifically you, AV) would have figured out what I meant. Again, I literally learned this from you not that long ago.

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I'll let book decide when to reveal their trick. Newer people won't get it either way probably.

[AvatarVecna]

Sorry if I'm not wanting to lynch a near confirmed townie because everyone else is too new or has meta regarding them dying early. Vote me if you prefer. I certainly have less evidence than Book does going for them.

Once again, 100% incorrect.


Which is why I'm confident you aren't town. If I'm wrong, I will apologize profusely later. However, even if you think I'm a moron or wrong about my assumption, if you were town, you (specifically you, AV) would have figured out what I meant. Again, I literally learned this from you not that long ago.

I don't want a ****ing apology I want you to stop gaslighting me and ****ing explain yourself. Or just vote me with zero explanation, if you think explaining would be bad for town.

[gac3]

Once again, 100% incorrect.



I don't want a ****ing apology I want you to stop gaslighting me and ****ing explain yourself. Or just vote me with zero explanation, if you think explaining would be bad for town.

Like I said, I'll leave the reveal up to book. I am voting you for now and going to bed. Though I have full confidence that just looking at Book's four posts that he had before this conversation will give you all the answers you need if you are town.

[AvatarVecna]

Like I said, I'll leave the reveal up to book. I am voting you for now and going to bed. Though I have full confidence that just looking at Book's four posts that he had before this conversation will give you all the answers you need if you are town.

Your confidence in my skill is misplaced then.

[gac3]

Your confidence in my skill is misplaced then.

The fascinating part to me right now is that you used a very similar situation as evidence against me. You were right then. That's why I fully believe you have the skill to pick up on this. Because you got me with it once already.

[Rogan]

First off: it's day 1. You are acting like the threshold for a chop choice is mega-high.

Second off: you've given exactly as many reasons for changing my vote as I've given for not changing my vote. You're not confirmed town, book's not confirmed town, so stop acting like you're in charge of this candy bag and that I've gotta convince you to have a chance.

Thirdly, it's just basic process of elimination.

3SecondCultist, Persolus, and Xumtiil are too new for me to wanna chop em this early. Cazero, Visor, Hollowkatt, MrsMcGinty, Cuthalion, and Murska don't play around here often if ever, and that'd be a bad way to say "hi". AvatarVecna, bladescape, Rogan, and flat_footed have a bad habit of dying early regardless of alignment. That leaves gac3, Book Wombat, and Snowblaze. gac ran the last game and tends to get scumread early for acting weird, so I'm willing to give him a pass for the moment. Snow has a tendency to get wagoned early but wiggle out of it, but also she died N1 last game due to bastard nonsense, so while I'm more willing to chop here, I'd still rather give her some time to catch her breath. That leaves BW, who I feel tends to last until endgame.

POE says BW for lynch.

Well, that's a nice explanation. You are still missing a crucial point: Book has done something to give him some significant town points. Especially on combination with gacs read on things.

Also, I'm definitely not trying to be a Town leader here. I'm telling you (and by extension, everyone else) my point of view.
And that's simple. I am reasonably confident I've figured out what Gac and Book are doing here. I agree with them. I don't expect everyone to get it and I don't think not getting it is enough reason to lock someone as wolf, but it's enough to look unfavorable on any tunnel on them.

Could this be a wolf ploy? Sure, nothing is impossible. But right now, you have two people publicly declaring their strong trust in one player, who seems to understand why they to this. Unless you want to suggest we are all wolves who decided to draw that much attention, you should consider the chance of us being right.

Regarding the reasons for trusting Book: Sure. Gac was vague and I'm probably even worse. But you should know the value of not explaining everything immediately so more players have a chance to chime in.

If gac asks me to explain my point of view, I'm willing to comply. I don't think he will need the additional town points for an explanation, cause he made the point first. Right now, I could be a wolf who has no idea what's going on here, pretending otherwise. So me explaining things would be better for my own position, but I'm still not going to do this unless I'm asked by someone I trust.
Until then, I'll stick to my position of vagueness.

[gac3]

Well, that's a nice explanation. You are still missing a crucial point: Book has done something to give him some significant town points. Especially on combination with gacs read on things.

Also, I'm definitely not trying to be a Town leader here. I'm telling you (and by extension, everyone else) my point of view.
And that's simple. I am reasonably confident I've figured out what Gac and Book are doing here. I agree with them. I don't expect everyone to get it and I don't think not getting it is enough reason to lock someone as wolf, but it's enough to look unfavorable on any tunnel on them.

Could this be a wolf ploy? Sure, nothing is impossible. But right now, you have two people publicly declaring their strong trust in one player, who seems to understand why they to this. Unless you want to suggest we are all wolves who decided to draw that much attention, you should consider the chance of us being right.

Regarding the reasons for trusting Book: Sure. Gac was vague and I'm probably even worse. But you should know the value of not explaining everything immediately so more players have a chance to chime in.

If gac asks me to explain my point of view, I'm willing to comply. I don't think he will need the additional town points for an explanation, cause he made the point first. Right now, I could be a wolf who has no idea what's going on here, pretending otherwise. So me explaining things would be better for my own position, but I'm still not going to do this unless I'm asked by someone I trust.
Until then, I'll stick to my position of vagueness.

To be fair, there are only like 2 or 3 players that I would care if they missed it. It's easy to miss. Especially if you are new. However by now those 2 or 3 people should have caught on. Again because I've seen them do a similar stunt.

[AvatarVecna]

If all this stupid ****ing fuss is about the text color I swear to god

[gac3]

Also since I brought it up first, I was actually hoping someone other than me or book could explain it. Basically giving us 3 solid town leans. Hopefully that can be Rogan, but I would prefer book be the one to make the request.

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If all this stupid ****ing fuss is about the text color I swear to god

It's not. I still don't (though maybe I should) pay any attention to the text color and codes put in that.

[Rogan]

To be fair, there are only like 2 or 3 players that I would care if they missed it. It's easy to miss. Especially if you are new. However by now those 2 or 3 people should have caught on. Again because I've seen them do a similar stunt.

I was significantly ninjaed in my post, but I tend to agree. AV is much more likely to understand than anybody else. I can confirm I've seen AV use a very similar move before.

Do you agree that if one of us three should explain things, it should be me?

[hollowkatt]

Morning. Enough content that I can start properly digging into it now. Let's see:

- vague gut townleans on Persolus and Rogan

- Murska, elaborate on 3SC please? (Also I was about to wolfread him for switching to a counterwagon to himself before I realised he was switching away from the other counterwagon to himself. In that case maybe thinnest of town points? Xumtiil wagon probably had more of a case behind it/was easier to push)

- Visor, when you say "Xumtiil seems fine for D1" do you mean "Xumtiil seems towny enough to not want dead" or "I'm fine with killing Xumtiil D1"?

- gac... my gut is just screaming "kill gac with fire" but it might just be typical town!gac weirdness so I need to turn that over in my head and try (and fail) to come to a conclusion.

- Mrs McGinty can have tentative town points for retracting their gac non-vote but I still expect answers/explanation before EOD.

- I also have a bad reason to townread AV; incidentally bladescape having one is typical bladescape and very much NAI, but I can see how it would seem towny to someone who doesn't know bladescape, so...

- bladescape, hollowkatt, have you played together before? How well do you know each other?


tl;dr
Vague townleans: Persolus, Rogan, Mrs McGinty
Above null if I squint hard enough, but don't trust me on these: Murska, AvatarVecna
Hovering somewhere below null: gac3, Xumtiil

And everyone else remains null.

I think Bladescape and I know each other fairly well. Somewhere between 5-15 games together over the years seems right to me.

[gac3]

I was significantly ninjaed in my post, but I tend to agree. AV is much more likely to understand than anybody else. I can confirm I've seen AV use a very similar move before.

Do you agree that if one of us three should explain things, it should be me?

Yes. I think that is optimal. Perhaps I drew attention to this prematurely but waiting too long could lead to the claim no longer being relevant.

[Rogan]

Also since I brought it up first, I was actually hoping someone other than me or book could explain it. Basically giving us 3 solid town leans. Hopefully that can be Rogan, but I would prefer book be the one to make the request.

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It's not. I still don't (though maybe I should) pay any attention to the text color and codes put in that.

Ninja again. But sure, I'm fine with Book taking the shot.

The text color is to the best of my knowledge just a slight joke, although I did check this at first as well.

[AvatarVecna]

Yes. I think that is optimal. Perhaps I drew attention to this prematurely but waiting too long could lead to the claim no longer being relevant.

I'd rather just get lynched than talk about claims.

[gac3]

I'd rather just get lynched than talk about claims.

Claim I guess is the wrong word. Because I have no idea what books roll is. Just to clarify.

[bladescape]

Sorry if I'm not wanting to lynch a near confirmed townie because everyone else is too new or has meta regarding them dying early. Vote me if you prefer. I certainly have less evidence than Book does going for them.

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Which is why I'm confident you aren't town. If I'm wrong, I will apologize profusely later. However, even if you think I'm a moron or wrong about my assumption, if you were town, you (specifically you, AV) would have figured out what I meant. Again, I literally learned this from you not that long ago.

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I'll let book decide when to reveal their trick. Newer people won't get it either way probably.

Any trick Book can intentionally do is a trick they can fake. Counterpointed.

[gac3]

Any trick Book can intentionally do is a trick they can fake. Counterpointed.

Interesting you say that. As you are the other person I've seen use this trick. And firm, disagree.

[bladescape]

Also all the uncommon faces around here I've played with a lot, except Cazero

[gac3]

Any trick Book can intentionally do is a trick they can fake. Counterpointed.

Again though, even if I was wrong and this is a viable wolf trick (which it isn't), I still believe AV would understand what I was talking about if town. Even if their response was "I see what you are saying and you are reading too much into this"

[Cazero]

Claim I guess is the wrong word. Because I have no idea what books roll is. Just to clarify.
Yet you're very confident the wombat is safe because of something they said when they could easily have been faking whatever it is.

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And I got ninja'ed hard.

[AvatarVecna]

Thought for a second I'd found a weird thing but it was just Xumtiil.

[gac3]

Yet you're very confident the wombat is safe because of something they said when they could easily have been faking whatever it is.

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And I got ninja'ed hard.

Disagree. Very hard thing to fake. Hence why it's such a solid hint for a townie to drop. Whatever. Unless you intend to vote for me or Book decides Rogan can reveal it, it's probably more productive to focus more on actually voting than whether or not Gac3 is tunneling AV/being tricked by a wolf. I'm not even trying to convince anyone to vote a certain ways just expressing my belief that Book is probably lock town and AV is probably not town.

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There's no point holding up discussion over a vague bit of evidence I'm not willing to reveal without permission. So if you think I'm behaving suspiciously, please vote me. Otherwise I feel like I'm just bogging down conversation.

[bladescape]

Interesting you say that. As you are the other person I've seen use this trick. And firm, disagree.

Especially if AV and me have visibly used this for townreads (which would be weird because I still got no clue what we're talking about and I just spent 20 minutes on the 3 Book posts before you claim they're towny and saw literally zilch that I'd use to read Book.) I would be skeptical of trusting it so hard.

[AvatarVecna]

FoS on MMG.

[Snowblaze]

Can we... please not talk about the Thing any more? It's basically completely subverting the point of the game and shouldn't really be something that wolves have to play around.

Just pretend it doesn't exist and move on and hunt wolves elsewhere. Please.

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FoS on MMG.

Elaborate, please?

[bladescape]

There's literally only one thing I can think of which is hilarious to me because it implies something that would ruin Gac's assumption anyway and I find flimsy at best.

That being said I'm near certain Gac is town because I doubt he'd do this vague dig heels in as wolf? I'd be surprised if he did at least.

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To clarify Rogan does not get the same town points for this.

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Again though, even if I was wrong and this is a viable wolf trick (which it isn't), I still believe AV would understand what I was talking about if town. Even if their response was "I see what you are saying and you are reading too much into this"

I don't believe this is a fair conjecture.

No matter how skilled people are not infallible.

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Literally any read on "if you were town you'd see x" is a read I will inherently disagree on.

Because sometimes you're tired. Or multitasking. Or just don't care. Especially as AV typically doesn't put effort into d1 much

[Rogan]

Yet you're very confident the wombat is safe because of something they said when they could easily have been faking whatever it is.

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And I got ninja'ed hard.

Book might have faked it, sure. But it's not trivial. He also reacted in a way I would expect town!book to do. And, third, I agree with Gac that Books move is totally in character for his town game but feels off for his wolf game.

Now, you don't need to understand what we are talking about. It will be explained one way or the other.
What would be interesting is your opinion on the surrounding. Do you think gac was tricked? Do you think he is a wolf who KNOWS Book isn't in his team?
What's my role in this whole mess?
What about AV?

[AvatarVecna]

The Number One gac3!


Who's been naughty and who's been—wait wrong time.
Uh, Time to Trick and Treat!


Wait, that's allowed? Now I'm tempted to vote for "all threats to town".


*gasp*
Wombat steak? How could you?!

There's nothing here.

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Elaborate, please?

Maybe later.

[Book Wombat]

The colour code is just because I wanted a festive colour, and CandyCoated fit quite well. Also reminiscent of blood.
If Rogan wants to reveal the trick, I have nothing against it.

[AvatarVecna]

That being said I'm near certain Gac is town because I doubt he'd do this vague dig heels in as wolf? I'd be surprised if he did at least.

I think it's actually NAI for gac, but I'm gonna townread him anyway.

[Cazero]

Book might have faked it, sure. But it's not trivial.
You're gonna have to explain the not trivial part, probably along the trick, if you want me to believe it.
Seriously. This is forum based. Lies are cheap and easy.

Now if you were to say it would be out of character for book to fake it, like you seem to be doing in the rest of your post, I guess I'd have to take your word for it.

[flat_footed]

The colour code is just because I wanted a festive colour, and CandyCoated fit quite well. Also reminiscent of blood.
If Rogan wants to reveal the trick, I have nothing against it.

BW until this is cleared up. Hope you don't mind me going with a fun, cherry flavored color. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Book might have faked it, sure. But it's not trivial. He also reacted in a way I would expect town!book to do. And, third, I agree with Gac that Books move is totally in character for his town game but feels off for his wolf game.

What wolf game? BW is like never wolf. He even keeps a good enough record to prove it: he's been wolf twice, SK once, and was culted to wolfteam in one game. That's out of 25 games played. Regardless of who was claiming what, anybody who claims they have a handle on how BW plays wolf based off two and a half real wolf games should have the accuracy of that read questioned.

[Taffimai]

Current Votecount



Gac 1: Cultist
Flat 3: Xumtiil, Murska, Visor
Xumtiil 2: Snow, Hollowkatt
Snow 1: Cazero
AV 2: Gac, Wombat
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
Wombat 2: AV, Flat
Cultist 1: Cuthalion
"all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus" 1: McGinty
"A wolf" 1: Rogan
Hollowkatt 1: Bladescape





There are 24 hours left in Day 1

[gac3]

The colour code is just because I wanted a festive colour, and CandyCoated fit quite well. Also reminiscent of blood.
If Rogan wants to reveal the trick, I have nothing against it.

Maybe Rogan should. That way we can move on from it. Even if they still don't agree after the fact.

[flat_footed]

flat_footed

you stand accused of the heinous crime of not supporting the la rams, how do you plead?

Is that an XFL team? Sorry, I only watch the NFL and root for the 49ers. :smalltongue:

[gac3]

There's literally only one thing I can think of which is hilarious to me because it implies something that would ruin Gac's assumption anyway and I find flimsy at best.

That being said I'm near certain Gac is town because I doubt he'd do this vague dig heels in as wolf? I'd be surprised if he did at least.

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To clarify Rogan does not get the same town points for this.

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I don't believe this is a fair conjecture.

No matter how skilled people are not infallible.

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Literally any read on "if you were town you'd see x" is a read I will inherently disagree on.

Because sometimes you're tired. Or multitasking. Or just don't care. Especially as AV typically doesn't put effort into d1 much

All valid points that probably would have talked me into backing off initially. But there is no way AV is as freaked out as they are acting and not putting full effort into looking at the three posts. Once again, even if they thought I was reading to much into it, I'd be shocked if town AV didn't get what I was referencing by this point.

[Snowblaze]

3SC: Persolus townlean is pretty much "he did some decent-sounding analysis and is new enough that that's enough for me to give him town points on D1".

Murska thing is what I mentioned earlier, which is basically: he switched his vote from one counterwagon to himself to the other, but he switched to the one that has less of a case behind it which makes it less likely that a counterwagon to him will gain momentum"... now I'm writing it down it feels even weaker than originally but still.

[3SecondCultist]

I have more reads, but at work and will chime in later. For the time being, I'll say that it's pretty frustrating to see the game narrow around discussion of 'a thing' that some people seem to know but won't confirm and being assured by so-called better players that we should trust that people are town because of it.

Put me on BW as well, until this is resolved.

[Rogan]

Wait, that's allowed? Now I'm tempted to vote for "all threats to town".

Please also see the edit of his post.

The victory condition for town is:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

So Book mentioned the victory condition in a very deliberate way.
Gac noticed, so he knows the victory condition.
AV usually is very observant about those details and used the spelling of the condition as evidence before.

Conclusion: Book and Gac are town.
Wolf!AV couldn't get this, so it points against her to some degree.

[3SecondCultist]

3SC: Persolus townlean is pretty much "he did some decent-sounding analysis and is new enough that that's enough for me to give him town points on D1".

Murska thing is what I mentioned earlier, which is basically: he switched his vote from one counterwagon to himself to the other, but he switched to the one that has less of a case behind it which makes it less likely that a counterwagon to him will gain momentum"... now I'm writing it down it feels even weaker than originally but still.

Fair enough on both counts, I suppose. I wonder if Persolus' towncred would apply to me as well, but I guess that might have to wait for the denouement on this whole tangle.

[gac3]

I have more reads, but at work and will chime in later. For the time being, I'll say that it's pretty frustrating to see the game narrow around discussion of 'a thing' that some people seem to know but won't confirm and being assured by so-called better players that we should trust that people are town because of it.

Put me on BW as well, until this is resolved.

I have a fair bit of confusion as to why these "until this is resolved" votes are going on Book and not me.

[3SecondCultist]

Please also see the edit of his post.

The victory condition for town is:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

So Book mentioned the victory condition in a very deliberate way.
Gac noticed, so he knows the victory condition.
AV usually is very observant about those details and used the spelling of the condition as evidence before.

Conclusion: Book and Gac are town.
Wolf!AV couldn't get this, so it points against her to some degree.

That is... not the ironclad proof you think it is. Sorry.

- - - Updated - - -


I have a fair bit of confusion as to why these "until this is resolved" votes are going on Book and not me.

No comment for now.

[gac3]

That is... not the ironclad proof you think it is. Sorry.

It's not ironclad proof against AV by any means but it is pretty solid proof for Book.

[Cazero]

Well, good enough for me.

[AvatarVecna]

I have a fair bit of confusion as to why these "until this is resolved" votes are going on Book and not me.

If we lynch you and you're town, that tells us jack diddly squat about BW's alignment since you could've just been misclearing them. But if we lynch BW and they're town, that gives you major town points for defending them this hard. I don't think scum!gac would defend them this hard.

BW is clear. I refuse to give Rogan towncred for pointing it out, though; it's just as easy for a wolf to try and get towncred by admitting to seeing it as it is for a wolf to pretend not to see it and try for an easy mislynch.

Mrs. McGinty.

[bladescape]

Please also see the edit of his post.

The victory condition for town is:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

So Book mentioned the victory condition in a very deliberate way.
Gac noticed, so he knows the victory condition.
AV usually is very observant about those details and used the spelling of the condition as evidence before.

Conclusion: Book and Gac are town.
Wolf!AV couldn't get this, so it points against her to some degree.

It would be a pity if "All threats to town" is a common phrase for victory conditions.

But also I do agree with the "Gac is town" conclusion.

And yes this was the hilariously flimsy reason I suspected in my last post. Going to re-iterate what I said in Afterlife though, and say using text from role-pms as evidence is honestly not something I like at all, and in the spirit of the game any sort of copying or using text from role-pms is meh.

[Rogan]

It's not ironclad proof against AV by any means but it is pretty solid proof for Book.

I agree on both counts.
It's simple, the victory condition of town wasn't made public as far as I know. It's literally impossible for a wolf to fake this without the risk of being wrong. And both Book and gac have been very clear about their stance.
If there is a wolf among them or they are a team, that's a huge risk. I'm willing to trust them.

Also, AV you played with Book in a wolf game. You mentioned yourself he was even more quiet than usual. You were evil yourself, if I recall correctly.


In conclusion:
AvatarVecna

- - - Updated - - -


It would be a pity if "All threats to town" is a common phrase for victory conditions.

It's specifically THE town.
See the edit.

Without this detail, it could be coincidence. With it, it's very clear for me.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, AV you played with Book in a wolf game. You mentioned yourself he was even more quiet than usual. You were evil yourself, if I recall correctly.

That I happened to be correct doesn't change the fact that you have zero ****ing basis for making any claims for understanding their wolf game when they don't have a wolfgame meta yet.

[Snowblaze]

So, yeah. I don't think the Thing should ever have been used. This is a game of figuring out who the wolves are because of what they post, what stances they take, who they attack and defend.

Not of "X is town because they know the secret message town knows and wolves don't". Taking that to its logical conclusion makes for a very boring game which wolves stand zero chance of winning.

But... I can't just pretend that none of this happened, that it doesn't tell me anything about gac's alignment or Wombat's.

Actually, no, there are worlds where Taffimai just gave wolves town's win condition for fakeclaiming purposes and this was all a crazy gambit on Wombat's behalf. I don't know whether I really believe that or whether I'm just using it as a way to pretend thus entire thing is NAI for all involved.

Except... I can't actually do that. Because if this whole thing hadn't happened I'd still be suspecting gac. And when I think about voting gac I realise I can't, because they're probably town, because of the Thing.

So... yeah. I think I just have to accept that this makes gac and Wombat not people we should consider killing any time soon, and just try to move on, hunt wolves, forget about everything else relating to this.


And we are not killing AV because of this, on principle as much as because I don't think it makes them a wolf.

[gac3]

It would be a pity if "All threats to town" is a common phrase for victory conditions.

But also I do agree with the "Gac is town" conclusion.

And yes this was the hilariously flimsy reason I suspected in my last post. Going to re-iterate what I said in Afterlife though, and say using text from role-pms as evidence is honestly not something I like at all, and in the spirit of the game any sort of copying or using text from role-pms is meh.

You seriously used that trick against me two games ago. Or town did collectively. AV very specifically did in as many words. It was nonsense then though because it was based off information town thought wolves didn't know but in actuality everyone knew and I just didn't realize town thought wolves wouldn't. Because I knew that info going into the game. I'm giving book credit because that wording stood out to me as odd when I read my role. I can't remember the last time that wording was used in town PM and then someone who frequently drops hints in opening posts puts the specific wording in? Absolutely going to give them credit. And that's why I said "AV might think I'm stupid, but AV would pick up what I meant." Maybe I overestimated AV but I don't think so.


If we lynch you and you're town, that tells us jack diddly squat about BW's alignment since you could've just been misclearing them. But if we lynch BW and they're town, that gives you major town points for defending them this hard. I don't think scum!gac would defend them this hard.

BW is clear. I refuse to give Rogan towncred for pointing it out, though; it's just as easy for a wolf to try and get towncred by admitting to seeing it as it is for a wolf to pretend not to see it and try for an easy mislynch.

Mrs. McGinty.

Except the whole thing only works if we work under the assumption wolves weren't given the town win condition verbatum. So as far as I'm concerned Rogan is either town or there's no reason to clear book.

Any reason for your new vote?

[3SecondCultist]

I agree on both counts.
It's simple, the victory condition of town wasn't made public as far as I know. It's literally impossible for a wolf to fake this without the risk of being wrong. And both Book and gac have been very clear about their stance.
If there is a wolf among them or they are a team, that's a huge risk. I'm willing to trust them.

Also, AV you played with Book in a wolf game. You mentioned yourself he was even more quiet than usual. You were evil yourself, if I recall correctly.

In conclusion:
AvatarVecna

Sure, it's literally impossible to fake without the risk of being wrong. It's also literally impossible for me to go onto a roof without the risk of falling to my death. That doesn't mean every time I go on a roof I'm automatically at risk of dying.

Pointed out now, I see what you're saying. It's more likely that BW is town than a wolf. But it's also possible that 'all threats to town' was a careful guess extrapolated in wolf chat based on the wolf's victory condition.

But to take this in a different direction: I would not vote AV for this. It's equally possible that she didn't see the trick, or that she didn't think that the trick was the proof you seem to claim that it is. Book being town does not make AV a wolf, or even the best wolf candidate today.

[Xumtiil]

Thought for a second I'd found a weird thing but it was just Xumtiil.

Notice me senpai!

I have to admit I missed Book's reference. He's so decisively null in most games that I tend to default to it until a day or two have passed.

Also, sudden flurry of activity woo - going to need a while to wrap my head around all the text and vote movements. Will update again in a few hours with my thoughts.

[3SecondCultist]

So, yeah. I don't think the Thing should ever have been used. This is a game of figuring out who the wolves are because of what they post, what stances they take, who they attack and defend.

Not of "X is town because they know the secret message town knows and wolves don't". Taking that to its logical conclusion makes for a very boring game which wolves stand zero chance of winning.

But... I can't just pretend that none of this happened, that it doesn't tell me anything about gac's alignment or Wombat's.

Actually, no, there are worlds where Taffimai just gave wolves town's win condition for fakeclaiming purposes and this was all a crazy gambit on Wombat's behalf. I don't know whether I really believe that or whether I'm just using it as a way to pretend thus entire thing is NAI for all involved.

Except... I can't actually do that. Because if this whole thing hadn't happened I'd still be suspecting gac. And when I think about voting gac I realise I can't, because they're probably town, because of the Thing.

So... yeah. I think I just have to accept that this makes gac and Wombat not people we should consider killing any time soon, and just try to move on, hunt wolves, forget about everything else relating to this.


And we are not killing AV because of this, on principle as much as because I don't think it makes them a wolf.

I agree with snow on this 100%, suspected pocketing be damned.

[AvatarVecna]

Any reason for your new vote?

Why am I voting a person I've declared suspicion on? Gee that's a real stumper.

[3SecondCultist]

I'm going to need to try and do some re-reads on people. Back in a few hours with more thoughts!

Edit: Damn it, that was supposed to go with the first one but I keep getting ninja'd.

[gac3]

So, yeah. I don't think the Thing should ever have been used. This is a game of figuring out who the wolves are because of what they post, what stances they take, who they attack and defend.

Not of "X is town because they know the secret message town knows and wolves don't". Taking that to its logical conclusion makes for a very boring game which wolves stand zero chance of winning.

But... I can't just pretend that none of this happened, that it doesn't tell me anything about gac's alignment or Wombat's.

Actually, no, there are worlds where Taffimai just gave wolves town's win condition for fakeclaiming purposes and this was all a crazy gambit on Wombat's behalf. I don't know whether I really believe that or whether I'm just using it as a way to pretend thus entire thing is NAI for all involved.

Except... I can't actually do that. Because if this whole thing hadn't happened I'd still be suspecting gac. And when I think about voting gac I realise I can't, because they're probably town, because of the Thing.

So... yeah. I think I just have to accept that this makes gac and Wombat not people we should consider killing any time soon, and just try to move on, hunt wolves, forget about everything else relating to this.


And we are not killing AV because of this, on principle as much as because I don't think it makes them a wolf.

Ugh. Where were you to defend the thing two games ago. Whatever.

[Rogan]

That I happened to be correct doesn't change the fact that you have zero ****ing basis for making any claims for understanding their wolf game when they don't have a wolfgame meta yet.

I had a wolf game with him. No, two.
From both of them, I remember him to be exceptionally quiet unless prodded.
It might not be the best database, but I don't care. It's not my whole point, it's supporting evidence.

[Snowblaze]

Fair enough on both counts, I suppose. I wonder if Persolus' towncred would apply to me as well, but I guess that might have to wait for the denouement on this whole tangle.

You can't get easy towncred by asking for it ;)

(I will let you know once I've actually read through your analysis beyond "hey, this contains questions for me, I should answer them".)

[AvatarVecna]

I had a wolf game with him. No, two.
From both of them, I remember him to be exceptionally quiet unless prodded.
It might not be the best database, but I don't care. It's not my whole point, it's supporting evidence.

Calling it evidence at all is dishonest. You've got two and a half data points, that hasn't graduated beyond coincidence. Until they've got a few more under their belt, how they play wolf is still pretty in flux.

[Rogan]

Calling it evidence at all is dishonest. You've got two and a half data points, that hasn't graduated beyond coincidence. Until they've got a few more under their belt, how they play wolf is still pretty in flux.

I've got the impression you are trying to derail the discussion by cherry picking.
I refuse to go on with this point.

[AvatarVecna]

I've got the impression you are trying to derail the discussion by cherry picking.
I refuse to go on with this point.

It might make me look scummier, but I'm not gonna let a bad argument just go by unchallenged.

[Xumtiil]

I just also want to point out there's a nonzero chance that not!town does not equal wolf. There could be neutrals, who also wouldn't know town's exact wincon.
Not claiming that AV is either since I know I'm town and I completely missed it, but there you are.

My reads so far:
Gac - Town or ballsy wolfplay
AV - Kinda sus, but not necessarily scum
Wombat - See Gac
Snow - Being her usual inquisitive self. NAI.
Xumtiil - Beetlejuice.
Cazero - New to me, towny nullish
Cultist - Only saw him in one game before which was a right mess. Towny null-ish so far.
Rogan - He caught the hint, which makes him likely town or the luckiest wolf.
Visor - Even though he's voting flat with me, could be an attempt to pocket me. Also, LA Rams. I don't do sports, so hard pass.
Hollowkatt - Interestingly I can't remember most of their posts without looking at them. Could be a very good wolf tactic, being present without offering content.
Mrs McGinty - Trying to engage? Many questions asked by and to, some not answered. Nullsus.
Cuthalion - Are they playing? Did they post? Can't remember. Sus.
Bladescape - Always a wolf until I see the corpse. And even then I'm not always convinced.
Persolus - See Cultist.
Murska - Voted for me, which I don't like. Understand why, which I do like. Nullish town, to spice things up a little.
Flat - Do you want a banana?

[Book Wombat]

Also, minor wolflean on Persolus for below quote.


Well, the issue with that is everyone is a threat to the town, if they play well/poorly enough.

[Persolus]

Also, minor wolflean on Persolus for below quote.

That was meant more as a joke: there was a lot of discussion last game about how a poorly-played Vig can screw everything up for Town. Totally see where you're coming from, though; I honestly didn't think to check the wording of the win con :smalltongue:

[bladescape]

I kinda found a wolf.

Xumtiil

[hollowkatt]

Book and Gac are from my point of view as cleared as possible for day 1. There's still a small chance of this read being wrong, so if you feel like you've got evidence against them, please don't be afraid of presenting it.

AV is not necessarily a wolf, but I can see where they are coming from. If it really would come to a thunderdome, as AV herself has suggested, I'd vote for her.

Now, AV, even if you don't trust me, if you are town, I think you should either abandon the idea of a thunderdome, or present some really good reasons for your initial vote on Book. I agree that the vote change is highly unusual, but I strongly disagree with the conclusion that it's wolfy.

How do you get there on Book and Gac? Like I've read their posts just the same as you have and at best I have them as null because nothing they've said has really stuck out to me, so how are you getting such a hard town read on them?

- - - Updated - - -


First off: it's day 1. You are acting like the threshold for a chop choice is mega-high.

Second off: you've given exactly as many reasons for changing my vote as I've given for not changing my vote. You're not confirmed town, book's not confirmed town, so stop acting like you're in charge of this candy bag and that I've gotta convince you to have a chance.

Thirdly, it's just basic process of elimination.

3SecondCultist, Persolus, and Xumtiil are too new for me to wanna chop em this early. Cazero, Visor, Hollowkatt, MrsMcGinty, Cuthalion, and Murska don't play around here often if ever, and that'd be a bad way to say "hi". AvatarVecna, bladescape, Rogan, and flat_footed have a bad habit of dying early regardless of alignment. That leaves gac3, Book Wombat, and Snowblaze. gac ran the last game and tends to get scumread early for acting weird, so I'm willing to give him a pass for the moment. Snow has a tendency to get wagoned early but wiggle out of it, but also she died N1 last game due to bastard nonsense, so while I'm more willing to chop here, I'd still rather give her some time to catch her breath. That leaves BW, who I feel tends to last until endgame.

POE says BW for lynch.

soz lemme make sure I understand you here.
You're unwilling to considering 3SecondCultist, Persolus, Xum, Cazero, Visor, HK, McGinty, Cuth, and Murska as wolves "today" because either they're noobs or don't play here regularly/at all
You're eliminating blade, rogan, and flat from consideration because "they die early" and that leaves you with 3.

Of those three gac is eliminated from consideration for running the last game and being weird, leaving snow and wombat, and of those two you're picking wombat because why?

Does it concern you at all that you've "eliminated" from todays consideration 12 of the 16 players, 13 if we include yourself, and that just by maths you've "cleared" for a day at least one wolf highly likely 2 or more, and that giving wolves "a day to establish" can be catastrophically bad?

like I can follow your logic and I can't say that it doesn't make sense, it's just really really bad logic
plx help me understand

- - - Updated - - -


Being 100% wrong about the latter is not convincing me you're 100% right about the former.


The fact that you are still pushing book after they cleared themselves when I know you personally would see what they did, why would I not assume that means you aren't town.


They've done nothing that clears them.


If you were town, you would know what clears them.


You're making a bad assumption that less-than-perfectly-towny play on my part means I'm scumteamed.


Or at the very least you wouldn't say they were your top vote.

as someone who's literally never played with you lot (with a couple of exceptions) please explain to me what hard clears Book, what makes AV a wolf from the @gac3 perspective, and how those two things tie into each other.

Like from my outsider perspective it reads like gac3 is claiming a godread on Book Wombat. I hate godread claims because it's so so easy to get them wrong and then the game goes to ****e.

[Book Wombat]

How do you get there on Book and Gac? Like I've read their posts just the same as you have and at best I have them as null because nothing they've said has really stuck out to me, so how are you getting such a hard town read on them?
Read on further.


soz lemme make sure I understand you here.
You're unwilling to considering 3SecondCultist, Persolus, Xum, Cazero, Visor, HK, McGinty, Cuth, and Murska as wolves "today" because either they're noobs or don't play here regularly/at all
You're eliminating blade, rogan, and flat from consideration because "they die early" and that leaves you with 3.

Of those three gac is eliminated from consideration for running the last game and being weird, leaving snow and wombat, and of those two you're picking wombat because why?

Does it concern you at all that you've "eliminated" from todays consideration 12 of the 16 players, 13 if we include yourself, and that just by maths you've "cleared" for a day at least one wolf highly likely 2 or more, and that giving wolves "a day to establish" can be catastrophically bad?

like I can follow your logic and I can't say that it doesn't make sense, it's just really really bad logic
plx help me understand

Not "as wolves" but as "lynch targets".


- - - Updated - - -

It is after all basic courtesy not to lynch new players on day one, excluding overwhelming evidence of course.

[hollowkatt]

Please also see the edit of his post.

The victory condition for town is:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

So Book mentioned the victory condition in a very deliberate way.
Gac noticed, so he knows the victory condition.
AV usually is very observant about those details and used the spelling of the condition as evidence before.

Conclusion: Book and Gac are town.
Wolf!AV couldn't get this, so it points against her to some degree.

bruh that's incredibly easy to fake.

It's like when you're pushing all in with your board in magic and say "all my eligible creatures attack" without identifying which ones are eligible or not. It's an angle shoot play at absolute best and throwing someone a hard town read for doing it is not only incredibly naive but also really bad play in general.

I can easily envision a wolf team that contains you and gac3 pushing AV on not getting "this one weird trick wolves hate" and Book is the patsy to make it all happen.

anyways we're killing Xum today get on board.

- - - Updated - - -


Read on further.



Not "as wolves" but as "lynch targets".


- - - Updated - - -

It is after all basic courtesy not to lynch new players on day one, excluding overwhelming evidence of course.

lol what?
find wolves, kill them. That's my job and idgaf how new to the game or board or existence the player is. If they're wolfy we kill them. ez game ez lyfe

[Book Wombat]

lol what?
find wolves, kill them. That's my job and idgaf how new to the game or board or existence the player is. If they're wolfy we kill them. ez game ez lyfe

*shrug*
The point was that if there is no information on possible wolves, you might as well not lynch a new player.


- - - Updated - - -

And when AvatarVecna voted for me I don't really think anyone had clear reads.

[Rogan]

How do you get there on Book and Gac? Like I've read their posts just the same as you have and at best I have them as null because nothing they've said has really stuck out to me, so how are you getting such a hard town read on them?

- - - Updated - - -



soz lemme make sure I understand you here.
You're unwilling to considering 3SecondCultist, Persolus, Xum, Cazero, Visor, HK, McGinty, Cuth, and Murska as wolves "today" because either they're noobs or don't play here regularly/at all
You're eliminating blade, rogan, and flat from consideration because "they die early" and that leaves you with 3.

Of those three gac is eliminated from consideration for running the last game and being weird, leaving snow and wombat, and of those two you're picking wombat because why?

Does it concern you at all that you've "eliminated" from todays consideration 12 of the 16 players, 13 if we include yourself, and that just by maths you've "cleared" for a day at least one wolf highly likely 2 or more, and that giving wolves "a day to establish" can be catastrophically bad?

like I can follow your logic and I can't say that it doesn't make sense, it's just really really bad logic
plx help me understand

I'm not sure if you are up to date on the whole thing. But my reasoning for gac and Book is basically:
They presented knowledge of something (only) town would know.
For Book, there's also a history of town!him hinting at things, which would fit very well to this action.
For gac it feels like a very weird move for a wolf. I could theoretical see a world where wolf!gac took some risks and managed to gain a huge amount of town cred, while also efficiently steering today's lynch. But I don't think this is a very likely world and I'm perfectly willing to discard it unless we get evidence in this direction.

Regarding AV and playing the devils advocate:
Not lynching new players day 1 is the usual Meta here, although it tends to be limited to "First game" (or first game for a very long time) instead of a general "They are new, so don't vote them").

So some of the limits of his list corresponds to established Meta. Other points are not as clear cut, but I could see town!AV coming to this list and conclusion.

Also, Book changing his vote is rare (I've not checked, but it might even be the first time), so AVs later thought of "that's out of character" is based on truth.

Also, I'm going to get dead tired, it was a long day for me. I might go to bed soon, so if there is anything else you want to know from me, it might take some significant time till I manage to explain.

[AvatarVecna]

soz lemme make sure I understand you here.
You're unwilling to considering 3SecondCultist, Persolus, Xum, Cazero, Visor, HK, McGinty, Cuth, and Murska as wolves "today" because either they're noobs or don't play here regularly/at all
You're eliminating blade, rogan, and flat from consideration because "they die early" and that leaves you with 3.

Of those three gac is eliminated from consideration for running the last game and being weird, leaving snow and wombat, and of those two you're picking wombat because why?

Does it concern you at all that you've "eliminated" from todays consideration 12 of the 16 players, 13 if we include yourself, and that just by maths you've "cleared" for a day at least one wolf highly likely 2 or more, and that giving wolves "a day to establish" can be catastrophically bad?

like I can follow your logic and I can't say that it doesn't make sense, it's just really really bad logic
plx help me understand

At the time, I had no real suspicions to go on, considering how quiet everybody (including myself) was being at the time of my vote change. So it turns to meta reasons - that's that aren't tactically good for this game, but are preferable strategies for a healthy community.

Don't wanna scare off new players, don't wanna discourage veterans who don't play here frequently, don't wanna target the people who always seem to get D1 lynched or N1 NK'd. None of that has anything to do with gamestate, because I didn't really have a bead on gamestate. Don't lynch Persolus yet, give him more chances to play with the community; Murska just poked his head up for the first time in months, don't D1 him just because he's Murska; flat_footed has been a D1 lynch in five of the last eleven games, how about we ease off him? Absolutely nothing to do with gamestate. This leaves three names.

gac3 is not a new player or a returning veteran, and doesn't tend to get lynched early. However, gac didn't get to play the previous game (due to being the narrator), and town!gac tends to ping people's scumdar for playing weirdly. Particularly because of the narration thing, I'm inclined to give gac a bit more time to actually play the game before I seriously consider him for a chop.

Snowblaze is not a new player or a returning veteran. While she tends to get wagoned D1, she also manages to basically always slip out of it by EoD, regardless of alignment. If she had gotten to play a lot of last game, I'd have little issue chopping her. However, that's not how it went down: Snow died early last game, and due to a bastard mechanic for that matter. It's a moderately unfair death, and I'm inclined to not chop her D1. Give her a bit more time to play before seriously considering her for a chop.

Book Wombat is not a new player or a returning veteran, and doesn't tend to get lynched early. In fact, BW has a tendency to largely fly under the radar: across 24 games, they've survived to the end 9 times (including last game). I was very willing to consider a BW chop.

None of this is based on gamestate or suspicions, because I had no real suspicions at the time. It is purely based on the assumption that we're not catching a wolf D1 except by accident, and since I didn't have a better idea of who I actually want to lynch, I decided to vote based on who would be deprived of gaming the least.


as someone who's literally never played with you lot (with a couple of exceptions) please explain to me what hard clears Book, what makes AV a wolf from the @gac3 perspective, and how those two things tie into each other.

Like from my outsider perspective it reads like gac3 is claiming a godread on Book Wombat. I hate godread claims because it's so so easy to get them wrong and then the game goes to ****e.

Book Wombat quoted the villager wincon without marking it as their wincon; this would be very difficult for a wolf to guess correctly by accident. gac3 claims to have noticed this, and thinks I should've noticed that too (since I've previously noticed similar things), and so gac townreads BW. When I then voted BW, since gac thinks I should've noticed the thing, gac concludes the only reason I'm voting BW is that I don't realize BW is quoting the wincon, which only wolf!AV wouldn't know since wolf!AV doesn't have the villager wincon. Thus, gac votes me. BW follows shortly thereafter.

[Book Wombat]

Also, Book changing his vote is rare (I've not checked, but it might even be the first time), so AVs later thought of "that's out of character" is based on truth.

Don't think it's the first time, but yeah it is rare because I basically never have reads.

[hollowkatt]

*shrug*
The point was that if there is no information on possible wolves, you might as well not lynch a new player.


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And when AvatarVecna voted for me I don't really think anyone had clear reads.

that's a bad point and I sincerely hope that's not the way you intend to approach the game given the vast number of people who are either new or nearly new to the board AND the number of people who are new or nearly new to playing forum mafia/werewolf/whatever you want to call it.

chop wolves, nobody cares about new vs not, and if they do, forum werewolf isn't the game for them.

I've chopped new players before, and players new to a board before. I've also been the new guy who randed wolf and used that to my advantage.

I get where you're coming from, my point is that it's bad play

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I'm not sure if you are up to date on the whole thing. But my reasoning for gac and Book is basically:
They presented knowledge of something (only) town would know.
For Book, there's also a history of town!him hinting at things, which would fit very well to this action.
For gac it feels like a very weird move for a wolf. I could theoretical see a world where wolf!gac took some risks and managed to gain a huge amount of town cred, while also efficiently steering today's lynch. But I don't think this is a very likely world and I'm perfectly willing to discard it unless we get evidence in this direction.

Regarding AV and playing the devils advocate:
Not lynching new players day 1 is the usual Meta here, although it tends to be limited to "First game" (or first game for a very long time) instead of a general "They are new, so don't vote them").

So some of the limits of his list corresponds to established Meta. Other points are not as clear cut, but I could see town!AV coming to this list and conclusion.

Also, Book changing his vote is rare (I've not checked, but it might even be the first time), so AVs later thought of "that's out of character" is based on truth.

Also, I'm going to get dead tired, it was a long day for me. I might go to bed soon, so if there is anything else you want to know from me, it might take some significant time till I manage to explain.

counterpoint: any person who's played forum mafia before has likely heard or seen "town wins when all threats to town are eliminated" or some variation thereof. I refuse to clear anyone for making a post that says something to that effect. Not only is it lazy play it's also super easy to fake.

I appreciate the input on the established forum meta. I have to wonder, and I've said this a couple times already, that meta is a disservice in a game like this one that has attracted several non-regulars to the forum to play. Judging by the comments from what I assume are long time users/players this game has a preponderance of new to the board players, which means it's highly likely that at least one of them is going to be a baddie. And that giving baddies time to establish can be devastating to town.

So while I understand and respect that meta, I think you kinda have to turn it on its ear here and approach differently.

[Book Wombat]

Chopping wolves sure, fun for the whole family. But in general there isn't much to go on in terms of alignment on Day One, anyway it doesn't apply to me because I always roll my first vote.

[hollowkatt]

At the time, I had no real suspicions to go on, considering how quiet everybody (including myself) was being at the time of my vote change. So it turns to meta reasons - that's that aren't tactically good for this game, but are preferable strategies for a healthy community.

Don't wanna scare off new players, don't wanna discourage veterans who don't play here frequently, don't wanna target the people who always seem to get D1 lynched or N1 NK'd. None of that has anything to do with gamestate, because I didn't really have a bead on gamestate. Don't lynch Persolus yet, give him more chances to play with the community; Murska just poked his head up for the first time in months, don't D1 him just because he's Murska; flat_footed has been a D1 lynch in five of the last eleven games, how about we ease off him? Absolutely nothing to do with gamestate. This leaves three names.

gac3 is not a new player or a returning veteran, and doesn't tend to get lynched early. However, gac didn't get to play the previous game (due to being the narrator), and town!gac tends to ping people's scumdar for playing weirdly. Particularly because of the narration thing, I'm inclined to give gac a bit more time to actually play the game before I seriously consider him for a chop.

Snowblaze is not a new player or a returning veteran. While she tends to get wagoned D1, she also manages to basically always slip out of it by EoD, regardless of alignment. If she had gotten to play a lot of last game, I'd have little issue chopping her. However, that's not how it went down: Snow died early last game, and due to a bastard mechanic for that matter. It's a moderately unfair death, and I'm inclined to not chop her D1. Give her a bit more time to play before seriously considering her for a chop.

Book Wombat is not a new player or a returning veteran, and doesn't tend to get lynched early. In fact, BW has a tendency to largely fly under the radar: across 24 games, they've survived to the end 9 times (including last game). I was very willing to consider a BW chop.

None of this is based on gamestate or suspicions, because I had no real suspicions at the time. It is purely based on the assumption that we're not catching a wolf D1 except by accident, and since I didn't have a better idea of who I actually want to lynch, I decided to vote based on who would be deprived of gaming the least.



Book Wombat quoted the villager wincon without marking it as their wincon; this would be very difficult for a wolf to guess correctly by accident. gac3 claims to have noticed this, and thinks I should've noticed that too (since I've previously noticed similar things), and so gac townreads BW. When I then voted BW, since gac thinks I should've noticed the thing, gac concludes the only reason I'm voting BW is that I don't realize BW is quoting the wincon, which only wolf!AV wouldn't know since wolf!AV doesn't have the villager wincon. Thus, gac votes me. BW follows shortly thereafter.

gotcha, thanks! That clears up some confusion but doesn't generally fill me with the greatest of feelings.

[Book Wombat]

counterpoint: any person who's played forum mafia before has likely heard or seen "town wins when all threats to town are eliminated" or some variation thereof. I refuse to clear anyone for making a post that says something to that effect. Not only is it lazy play it's also super easy to fake.

What I wrote was "all threats to town", but in the Edit Reason I added "*the" because the original line is "all threats to the town".
Up to you whether to be convinced or not, but it would be quite lucky for a wolf to guess this. If I am one I could have of course gotten information about the town win condition from the narrator, but that's up to you to decide.

[hollowkatt]

Chopping wolves sure, fun for the whole family. But in general there isn't much to go on in terms of alignment on Day One, anyway it doesn't apply to me because I always roll my first vote.

which is why you just chop wolfy people D1 unless someone makes a mistake that outs them as a wolf.

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What I wrote was "all threats to town", but in the Edit Reason I added "*the" because the original line is "all threats to the town".
Up to you whether to be convinced or not, but it would be quite lucky for a wolf to guess this. If I am one I could have of course gotten information about the town win condition from the narrator, but that's up to you to decide.

I refuse to make that read on the grounds that its 100% angleshooting and wrong.

[Visor]

man its fascinating how gitp has changed since i last played

crazy times

can someone talk to me about gac btw? where are they at on him

[Xumtiil]

which is why you just chop wolfy people D1 unless someone makes a mistake that outs them as a wolf.


"Wolfy" is subjective though, and largely based on a player's experience and familiarity. Newer players will trigger the feeling of "wolfy" a lot faster than players you're used to.

Two good examples just from this game:
Visor's first take on Cazero
Your initially unclarified vote on me I found suspicious as hell, while Bladescape's still unclarified vote on me feels like... well, Bladescape being Bladescape

D1 is already often wrong - chances of being wrong about someone you've never played with are so much higher, so it's nicer to restrict to the people that you're familiar with. Of course, in a game like this, where "new players" might also be "experienced players", the regular risk of missing out on a wolf D1 is more, but overall it's still not so large that leaving newer players alone to make them feel welcome (until D2) isn't worth it. (Additionally, I think Taffimai might appreciate that the people she invited to come play here aren't kicked out of the game right at the start)

I mean, I've played a few games now here and I pretty much end-gamed in all of them where I either won or the game was lost because (or soon after) I died. A D1 yeet wouldn't be the end of the world.

Do you have any reads on the "new but experienced" players, and also on Bladescape? Those would be helpful for us, since it's likely there is a wolf in the fresh faces (and Bladescape is always cryptic, the more reads we have on him the better).

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man its fascinating how gitp has changed since i last played

crazy times

can someone talk to me about gac btw? where are they at on him

Gac's current meta is "always a bit weird"

In this game, however, it looks like he's leaning town to me.

[hollowkatt]

"Wolfy" is subjective though, and largely based on a player's experience and familiarity. Newer players will trigger the feeling of "wolfy" a lot faster than players you're used to.

Two good examples just from this game:
Visor's first take on Cazero
Your initially unclarified vote on me I found suspicious as hell, while Bladescape's still unclarified vote on me feels like... well, Bladescape being Bladescape

D1 is already often wrong - chances of being wrong about someone you've never played with are so much higher, so it's nicer to restrict to the people that you're familiar with. Of course, in a game like this, where "new players" might also be "experienced players", the regular risk of missing out on a wolf D1 is more, but overall it's still not so large that leaving newer players alone to make them feel welcome (until D2) isn't worth it. (Additionally, I think Taffimai might appreciate that the people she invited to come play here aren't kicked out of the game right at the start)

I mean, I've played a few games now here and I pretty much end-gamed in all of them where I either won or the game was lost because (or soon after) I died. A D1 yeet wouldn't be the end of the world.

Do you have any reads on the "new but experienced" players, and also on Bladescape? Those would be helpful for us, since it's likely there is a wolf in the fresh faces (and Bladescape is always cryptic, the more reads we have on him the better).

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Gac's current meta is "always a bit weird"

In this game, however, it looks like he's leaning town to me.

I think I'm coming at it from a different perspective than you are, which is fine, and often good.
I haven't dropped reads on Blade, Visor, or Cuth yet on purpose as I'm not yet confident in my read on them. Blade twinged me when he voted me earlier and accused me of trying to pocket him. I thought that was a somewhat over the top reaction, but without much of anything else to go on I'm mostly at a null there with a side of "pay attention b/c that was weird".

Neither visor nor cuth have done anything to draw a read, they're both solidly in the null bucket.

I'm trying very hard to ignore the whole BW "posted a town thing" argument when making reads because it feels gross. If you're going to press me there I'd say either they're all pure (gec3, AV, BW, Rogan) or there's >1 wolves there and either way it's not something I'm willing or interested to wade into today.

Standing alone I think AV had the most townie reaction to the whole thing because his confusion and thought processes there seemed genuine to me.

The way gac3 and Rogan piled on him felt squicky, like there was an agenda there. It absolutely could be those two are town and think they've nailed AV through BW being cryptic, basically I'm withholding judgement on that lot until there's more different conversations to interact with.

I am concerned that you're not working to progress the game further. I think there's enough to go on/talk about/etc for you to start wading into things that aren't related to me in some way (maybe I'm missing something else you've done/said but I feel like most of the time you're posting it's either about me or with me).

I have decently good feelings about Snow and their posting, as well as Murska, and would not advocate for them to be eliminated today.

[bladescape]

I think I'm coming at it from a different perspective than you are, which is fine, and often good.
I haven't dropped reads on Blade, Visor, or Cuth yet on purpose as I'm not yet confident in my read on them. Blade twinged me when he voted me earlier and accused me of trying to pocket him. I thought that was a somewhat over the top reaction, but without much of anything else to go on I'm mostly at a null there with a side of "pay attention b/c that was weird".

Neither visor nor cuth have done anything to draw a read, they're both solidly in the null bucket.

I'm trying very hard to ignore the whole BW "posted a town thing" argument when making reads because it feels gross. If you're going to press me there I'd say either they're all pure (gec3, AV, BW, Rogan) or there's >1 wolves there and either way it's not something I'm willing or interested to wade into today.

Standing alone I think AV had the most townie reaction to the whole thing because his confusion and thought processes there seemed genuine to me.

The way gac3 and Rogan piled on him felt squicky, like there was an agenda there. It absolutely could be those two are town and think they've nailed AV through BW being cryptic, basically I'm withholding judgement on that lot until there's more different conversations to interact with.

I am concerned that you're not working to progress the game further. I think there's enough to go on/talk about/etc for you to start wading into things that aren't related to me in some way (maybe I'm missing something else you've done/said but I feel like most of the time you're posting it's either about me or with me).

I have decently good feelings about Snow and their posting, as well as Murska, and would not advocate for them to be eliminated today.

Ah. You took me seriously.

That was your mistake.

[hollowkatt]

Ah. You took me seriously.

That was your mistake.

walking it back: wolf 101 ;-)

[bladescape]

walking it back: wolf 101 ;-)

102 actually. 3rd trimester. Good class imo.

[Snowblaze]

Morning.

The whole "don't kill new players/returning players/players who die early a lot" thing is pretty common here, even if it's not strictly optimal. Though I'd say we do now have enough information to do proper wolfhunting instead.

Speaking of which, I'm down with killing Xumtiil. My gut did say his last post was towny, but I really wasn't a fan of his reads list (plus I probably let bladescape influence my reads too much).

Kind of second-guessing on the grounds I frequently wolfread town!Xumtiil, but... I think this is a different kind of wolfy. Though I got somewhat distracted from digging into his town meta, so I will do that at some point today.

Visor, my thoughts on gac are... kind of tied up with the Thing. I do think independently of It the way they handled it is towny for them (invoking meta probably won't be that helpful for you, but I'm doing it anyway: it reminds me of how they approached the whole necromancer gambit in UPick 2.)

Anyway, as well as the Xumtiil town meta I need to reread and dig into the more active players I don't have concrete reads on, and I should probably check I'm not giving Persolus a free pass because he's both new and contributing (okay, no, I am doing that, I need to check whether he actually deserves that pass).

[Snowblaze]

flat_footed 3: Xumtiil, Murska, Visor
Xumtiil 3: Snowblaze, Hollowkatt, bladescape
AvatarVecna 3: gac3, Book Wombat, Rogan
Book Wombat 3: AvatarVecna, flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
Mrs McGinty 1: AvatarVecna
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
3SecondCultist 1: Cuthalion
"all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus" 1: McGinty

That is. Quite the votecount. I'm not a fan of any of the wagons other than the one I'm on - there isn't really much of a case against flat, I'm refusing on principle to kill AV (now that's not something I ever thought I'd catch myself saying), and... you know, the Thing for Wombat.

Persolus, I notice you're still on an RNG vote (unless I've missed something); which of the current wagons would you most want dead?

[Xumtiil]

I think I'm coming at it from a different perspective than you are, which is fine, and often good.



I am concerned that you're not working to progress the game further. I think there's enough to go on/talk about/etc for you to start wading into things that aren't related to me in some way (maybe I'm missing something else you've done/said but I feel like most of the time you're posting it's either about me or with me).


That is... Not entirely untrue, I guess? I mean, I made a half assed reads list and your vote on me got me tunneling on you quite hard. I can see why I'd be a vote target, especially for you, but I'm happy enough to walk back some of my suspicion on you (Town class 102 3d trimester, had some shared lessons with the wolves, it was really awkward)

Still have quite a few hours before EOD and according to Snow's list it's a 4 way tie. I'll dig into the other three more in depth and come back with some proper analysis in a while.

[AvatarVecna]

flat_footed 3: Xumtiil, Murska, Visor
Xumtiil 3: Snowblaze, Hollowkatt, bladescape
AvatarVecna 3: gac3, Book Wombat, Rogan
Book Wombat 3: AvatarVecna, flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
Mrs McGinty 1: AvatarVecna
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
3SecondCultist 1: Cuthalion
"all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus" 1: McGinty

That is. Quite the votecount. I'm not a fan of any of the wagons other than the one I'm on - there isn't really much of a case against flat, I'm refusing on principle to kill AV (now that's not something I ever thought I'd catch myself saying), and... you know, the Thing for Wombat.

Persolus, I notice you're still on an RNG vote (unless I've missed something); which of the current wagons would you most want dead?

Snow I crossed-out My book wombat vote over half a day ago.

[Xumtiil]

Oh I still meant to ask, what do you think of Mrs McGinty's gimmick?

[AvatarVecna]

Flat and Book wagons are bad and nobody should be on them. While I'm at it, I'm also gonna more seriously declare blade and Murska off-limits, although nobody's currently on them anyway.

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I'm also unclear on why Xumtiil is being wagoned.

[Mrs McGinty]

Maybe later.

*bow*

10characthissiteisvbulletinsowhyarenttherebettersm ilies

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all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus, gac, AV, 3SC

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was hoping for a longer list by now

[AvatarVecna]

*bow*

10characthissiteisvbulletinsowhyarenttherebettersm ilies

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all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus, gac, AV, 3SC

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was hoping for a longer list by now

You were hoping to have tentatively cleared more than nine people by EoD1? :smalltongue:

[Snowblaze]

Snow I crossed-out My book wombat vote over half a day ago.
Right, sorry. Not sure how I managed to miss that despite noticing your new vote. Guess we only have a three-way tie, then.

Oh I still meant to ask, what do you think of Mrs McGinty's gimmick?

Who's that directed towards? (ftr I don't think the gimmick itself is AI given they're not using it as an excuse to not provide content... just as an excuse to not explain anything sighs).


Flat and Book wagons are bad and nobody should be on them. While I'm at it, I'm also gonna more seriously declare blade and Murska off-limits, although nobody's currently on them anyway.

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I'm also unclear on why Xumtiil is being wagoned.

In my case, because I have a vague wolflean there and agree with you on the other wagons.

[Mrs McGinty]

You were hoping to have tentatively cleared more than nine people by EoD1? :smalltongue:

I'm not trying to clear people.

I'm just not voting for them.

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(Strictly speaking I'm not voting for anyone yet, but... later.)

[Persolus]

flat_footed 3: Xumtiil, Murska, Visor
Xumtiil 3: Snowblaze, Hollowkatt, bladescape
AvatarVecna 3: gac3, Book Wombat, Rogan
Book Wombat 3: AvatarVecna, flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
Mrs McGinty 1: AvatarVecna
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
3SecondCultist 1: Cuthalion
"all except ff, Murska, hk, Rogan, sb, Persolus" 1: McGinty

That is. Quite the votecount. I'm not a fan of any of the wagons other than the one I'm on - there isn't really much of a case against flat, I'm refusing on principle to kill AV (now that's not something I ever thought I'd catch myself saying), and... you know, the Thing for Wombat.

Persolus, I notice you're still on an RNG vote (unless I've missed something); which of the current wagons would you most want dead?

Hello! Yes! Sorry, I have been both busy, tired, and mildly overwhelmed by the volume of posts since my partial list of reads.

My best attempts at reads for the four-way tie:
Book Wombat's Thing was weird, but since Utropia didn't come with an explicit win condition (just said Town + powers), I literally only have this win-con to go off of to know how plausible it is for BW to have come up with the precise wording - others seem to think this rather unlikely. A lot of the support/distrust towards BW is based off of this Thing and this Thing alone, so flipping wouldn't give us much info? so probably town, but even if not, not a priority target.

NINJA'D: AV's vote was somehow counted twice, so BW as part of the tie was actually invalid anyways.

AV is very vocal, the same as last game. I can totally see overlooking the Thing as an honest mistake - I did, and I have a tendency to over-analyse phrasing of rules. I do find the vote shift to Mrs McGinty interesting. Without a massive last-second shift, it's unlikely to be effective, and regardless, as she's offered little to no reasoning yet as to her votes, her flipping doesn't give us any real information. So, honestly couldn't say? if you have a good explanation for Mrs McGinty, then probably town, but otherwise null/*slight*wolflean.

I'm starting to get ninja'ed a lot, so here's this and I will keep typing up more.

[AvatarVecna]

Who's that directed towards? (ftr I don't think the gimmick itself is AI given they're not using it as an excuse to not provide content... just as an excuse to not explain anything sighs).

I will say, this isn't what got my voting MMG, but yeah the refusal to actually stand by a singular vote at any given time is something that's gonna make analysis harder later and I'm not really a fan of that. That it's not being explicitly used as an excuse to not provide content doesn't change the lack of content.

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And no I'm still not explaining what actually got me voting them in the first place.

[Persolus]

I will say, this isn't what got my voting MMG, but yeah the refusal to actually stand by a singular vote at any given time is something that's gonna make analysis harder later and I'm not really a fan of that. That it's not being explicitly used as an excuse to not provide content doesn't change the lack of content.

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And no I'm still not explaining what actually got me voting them in the first place.

Totally fair, I wasn't expecting you to explain until things progressed a bit further.

OK, now Xumtiil: so Bladescape is being extremely enigmatic this game, but at the very least Xumtiil didn't get percentages, so I don't know how reliable this vote is. and my brain is officially done working, as it is currently far too lateearly and I just had to delete sentence of literal nonsense. If I wake up before EoD, I will focus and change the vote, otherwise Cuthalion it remains.

[Snowblaze]

Okay. Reads list time!

Probably town because of the Thing, unfortunately: gac3, Book Wombat

Probably also town but I'm waiting for him to do more towny stuff independently of the Thing: Rogan

I think somewhere above null, need to reread to determine confidence: Persolus, Mrs McGinty, Murska, 3SecondCultist, hollowkatt

Null but not getting my vote D1: AvatarVecna

Null: bladescape, flat_footed, Cuthalion, Visor, Cazero

Wolflean: Xumtiil

Failing to think of snarky tier name for herself: Snowblaze


...eh, I'll take that for D1, though would like to get to that rereading at some point today.

[Rogan]

Morning.

Speaking of which, I'm down with killing Xumtiil. My gut did say his last post was towny, but I really wasn't a fan of his reads list (plus I probably let bladescape influence my reads too much).

Kind of second-guessing on the grounds I frequently wolfread town!Xumtiil, but... I think this is a different kind of wolfy. Though I got somewhat distracted from digging into his town meta, so I will do that at some point today.


Good Morning.

Help me a bit with Xum. It's there something concrete I've missed, or is this more of a feeling thing?

Also, about AV. I agree that the whole "not getting the victory condition" should not get that much weight. But the way she reacted around it gave me really bad vibes.
I've already mentioned the derailing of the discussion.
There's also an influence from the timing of things which were:

Gac mentioned he is locking Book as town
AV votes Book because POE
gac votes AV with reasonable certainty
Book changes vote to AV
AV demands a thunderdome for the changed vote
Book (in my opinion) heavily hints at the thing
I get the thing, but am not convinced about AV
AV is defending her initial vote
I'm asking her to either present a case or avoiding a thunderdome
AV reacts rather hostile (my point of view) and explains her meta-reason POE
gac and AV discussing the thing, where AV continues to defend her POE reason for the vote
AV angrily demands an explanation of the thing (gac said before that he would like Book to make this decision)
Some other players chime in, stating they don't get it and distrust the read. Interestingly, Snow already starts hinting that she got it and would rather not use it for fairness
Book gives permission for the reveal
"I think it's actually NAI for gac, but I'm gonna townread him anyway. " a weird stance from AV, in my opinion
AV claims that Book is never a wolf (twice, according to books records) and I have no idea about how Book plays as wolf.
I reveal the thing
I have a fair bit of confusion as to why these "until this is resolved" votes are going on Book and not me. (By gac)
"No comment for now. " (by 3Sec)
AV explains her reason to vote Book over gac. She doesn't engage with the reveal a lot, but changes her vote (funny enough, to someone (MMG) she ruled out for meta reasons before, but that's only slightly amusing to me, not really wolfy). She specifically denied me town points, which might subconsciously influence my read. I didn't vaguely guess 'it's the victory condition' but explicitly quoted it and pointed out the importance of books edit. Not impossible to fake, but risky.
I vote AV
AV continues to throw mud at me for "having no basis to judge Books wolf games" despite me having played with wolf book and called him out as wolf in two of two wolf games of him.


To make things worse, in the very last game I've asked AV to clarify some things of her game which were weired, got an angry rant as response. Turned out, she was a wolf.



Okay, this took significantly longer than intended and I'm out of time for the moment. See you in a few hours.

[Snowblaze]

On Xumtiil: I thought his initial response to being voted by hollowkatt and Murska was kind of an overreaction,
and this reads list:


I just also want to point out there's a nonzero chance that not!town does not equal wolf. There could be neutrals, who also wouldn't know town's exact wincon.
Not claiming that AV is either since I know I'm town and I completely missed it, but there you are.

My reads so far:
Gac - Town or ballsy wolfplay
AV - Kinda sus, but not necessarily scum
Wombat - See Gac
Snow - Being her usual inquisitive self. NAI.
Xumtiil - Beetlejuice.
Cazero - New to me, towny nullish
Cultist - Only saw him in one game before which was a right mess. Towny null-ish so far.
Rogan - He caught the hint, which makes him likely town or the luckiest wolf.
Visor - Even though he's voting flat with me, could be an attempt to pocket me. Also, LA Rams. I don't do sports, so hard pass.
Hollowkatt - Interestingly I can't remember most of their posts without looking at them. Could be a very good wolf tactic, being present without offering content.
Mrs McGinty - Trying to engage? Many questions asked by and to, some not answered. Nullsus.
Cuthalion - Are they playing? Did they post? Can't remember. Sus.
Bladescape - Always a wolf until I see the corpse. And even then I'm not always convinced.
Persolus - See Cultist.
Murska - Voted for me, which I don't like. Understand why, which I do like. Nullish town, to spice things up a little.
Flat - Do you want a banana?
I don't like. There isn't really any depth of thought there, it's just "this person did this, which is nullish-town" rather than really trying to dig into people's alignments.

I can elaborate when I have more time if you want.


On AV: I'm trying to avoid talking about the Thing too much, but I will say that I would be pretty angry if I was being accused of being a wolf for something I didn't understand and the fact I'm not understanding it is why I'm being accused, regardless of my alignment.

[AvatarVecna]

Rogan, stop misrepresenting me just because you're butthurt about not getting townie points.


AV demands a thunderdome for the changed vote

I didn't demand, I suggested, and it was kind of a joke anyway. I didn't expect it to turn into some enormous issue.


Book (in my opinion) heavily hints at the thing

Your opinion is garbage based on jack diddly squat.


I'm asking her to either present a case or avoiding a thunderdome
AV reacts rather hostile (my point of view) and explains her meta-reason POE

I was tired of being assumed to either be an idiot townie or a ****ing wolf just because I wasn't perfectly tryharding a few hours into D1.


"I think it's actually NAI for gac, but I'm gonna townread him anyway. " a weird stance from AV, in my opinion

You're making out like I said I'm declaring this NAI while also townreading him for this. I'm townreading him for something else. No I will not specify what.


AV claims that Book is never a wolf (twice, according to books records) and I have no idea about how Book plays as wolf.

This is a butthurt lie. Here's the actual flow of conversation with quotes, rather than your paraphrased lies to make yourself look better:

[spoiler]
that Books move is totally in character for his town game but feels off for his wolf game.


What wolf game? BW is like never wolf. He even keeps a good enough record to prove it: he's been wolf twice, SK once, and was culted to wolfteam in one game. That's out of 25 games played. Regardless of who was claiming what, anybody who claims they have a handle on how BW plays wolf based off two and a half real wolf games should have the accuracy of that read questioned.


Also, AV you played with Book in a wolf game. You mentioned yourself he was even more quiet than usual. You were evil yourself, if I recall correctly.


That I happened to be correct doesn't change the fact that you have zero ****ing basis for making any claims for understanding their wolf game when they don't have a wolfgame meta yet.


I had a wolf game with him. No, two.
From both of them, I remember him to be exceptionally quiet unless prodded.
It might not be the best database, but I don't care. It's not my whole point, it's supporting evidence.

Rogan claims corroborating evidence for the Book townread: namely, that this move does not match Book's "wolf game". I point out that Book doesn't have a wolf game, and provide evidence. Rogan "reminds me" that I've played with a wolf!BW before and called them out on a thing. I point out that me happening to be right once doesn't change that Rogan has zero basis for making any kind of definitive statements's about Book's wolf meta. Rogan "reminds me" that BW has been wolf twice, in fact, even though I'm the person who pointed this out in the first place.

Rogan is misrepresenting this whole exchange for no reason other than spite, AFAICT.


AV explains her reason to vote Book over gac. She doesn't engage with the reveal a lot, but changes her vote (funny enough, to someone (MMG) she ruled out for meta reasons before, but that's only slightly amusing to me, not really wolfy).

As I've explained a few times now, the POE that eliminated basically everybody was "in lieu of having actual wolf leans". I got a town lean on BW, and a wolf lean on McGinty, so I switched my vote. This isn't rocket science.


To make things worse, in the very last game I've asked AV to clarify some things of her game which were weired, got an angry rant as response. Turned out, she was a wolf.

This particular accusation really gets under my skin because I know you should know better than this. I get emotional regardless of alignment. It's NAI. And yet, every single time I get emotional as town, people are still butthurt over "being tricked" by "fake emotionality" the last time I was a wolf, and they lynch me for salt and refuse to take into account the last time they lynched for salt and I turned up town. And when I get lynched this time, and flip town, you're going to develop amnesia about this incident too, and only remember the next time I get a little salty while randing wolf.

I invest a lot of time and effort into these games generally, and when that effort is punished instead of rewarded, I get salty, regardless of alignment. Having the salt exclusively used as a reason to wolfread me is adding insult to injury.

[Mrs McGinty]

Xumtiil

I'm having worsening connection problems (out for over an hour this last time), and need to get an actual vote down lest it goes completely 'til after eod.

- - - Updated - - -

X looks least townie of the four current wagons.

- - - Updated - - -

And the only one that, afaics, anyone has put a meaningful case against.

[AvatarVecna]

Xumtiil

I'm having worsening connection problems (out for over an hour this last time), and need to get an actual vote down lest it goes completely 'til after eod.

- - - Updated - - -

X looks least townie of the four current wagons.

How dare you untie the wagons. AvatarVecna

[Mrs McGinty]

Please tell me something about yourself

I have played only two days of mafia in the past 18 months.


Who played a game with her in the old times?

Visor knows me very well. Cuth and bladescape quite well. Murska knew me pretty well, but it's been a long time. Gac, AV, Snow have seen me town a couple of times (very poorly).

- - - Updated - - -


...is there a specific reason why a) you initially voted "all", as opposed to random/not voting and b) why you decided to exempt ff, Murska and hk?

a) Several reasons, but mainly it was just an idea I had while chatting pre-game with Taffi about weird mechanics at Giraffe Boards (Visor knows the one I'm talking about). It's not pure gimmick - there is always some kind of method in my silliness - but for now it's probably not a good use of my time to fully unpack it.

b) I liked how ff came into the thread - seemed relaxed, chatty. I liked Murska coming straight in to make a wagon - provocative is good. And hk just came in looking like the hk town I know (and am determined not to mischop after a previous horrorshow of a tunnel on him).

- - - Updated - - -


Would you agree that you are better at generating discussions than hunting wolves on your own?

In the last period where I was a regular player - including the two games mentioned here - that was certainly true.

Back in the old days (i.e. pre-MU), I was very much the opposite - very low posting, but caught wolves fairly often.

Nowadays I play so little, and I make a point of changing it up every time, that I'm not sure there's any meaningful meta.

I did land a pretty major wolf scalp in my very last game, but that was pretty much blind luck (my 'case' consisted of a bald vote and a series of smilies).

[Murska]

How dare you untie the wagons. AvatarVecna

Okay, fine, AvatarVecna. Maybe self-voting is your thing, maybe voting for self-voters is my thing.

[Xumtiil]

How dare you untie the wagons. AvatarVecna

Hey AV - McGinty blinked. Also, glass or plastic, glass or plastic? (Will explain later, if I'm still alive)

[Visor]

whats the skinny on xumtiil

- - - Updated - - -

yeesh

farewell palio

Xumtiil

[Xumtiil]

whats the skinny on xumtiil

Resting sus face, probably. 2 first games I was lynched unanimously, actually. Fun times.

[AvatarVecna]

Hey AV - McGinty blinked. Also, glass or plastic, glass or plastic? (Will explain later, if I'm still alive)

I noticed. Prefer to retie the wagons though. I prefer glass?

[Visor]

Resting sus face, probably. 2 first games I was lynched unanimously, actually. Fun times.

woof thats painful

were you a wolf?

[Xumtiil]

Once yes, once no. But the second time it was just Snow and me left, we were both town, bastard mechanic was that we needed to lynch AV who was narrating.

[bladescape]

Flat and Book wagons are bad and nobody should be on them. While I'm at it, I'm also gonna more seriously declare blade and Murska off-limits, although nobody's currently on them anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm also unclear on why Xumtiil is being wagoned.

I found fur in the shower and I think it was Xum that used it last.

- - - Updated - - -


Totally fair, I wasn't expecting you to explain until things progressed a bit further.

OK, now Xumtiil: so Bladescape is being extremely enigmatic this game, but at the very least Xumtiil didn't get percentages, so I don't know how reliable this vote is. and my brain is officially done working, as it is currently far too lateearly and I just had to delete sentence of literal nonsense. If I wake up before EoD, I will focus and change the vote, otherwise Cuthalion it remains.

I wanna paint this person red too but I don't have multi-vote powers.

[Snowblaze]

Xumtiil 5: Snowblaze, hollowkatt, bladescape, Mrs McGinty, Visor
AvatarVecna 5: gac3, Book Wombat, Rogan, AvatarVecna, Murska
Book Wombat 2: flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
3SecondCultist 1: Cuthalion
Snowblaze 1: Cazero
Mrs McGinty 1: Xumtiil

Don't have time for more analysis rn, I have RL stuff to do. Will hopefully be back about half an hour before EOD, but if I'm not... vote Xumtiil, not AV.

[bladescape]

On Xumtiil: I thought his initial response to being voted by hollowkatt and Murska was kind of an overreaction,
and this reads list:


I don't like. There isn't really any depth of thought there, it's just "this person did this, which is nullish-town" rather than really trying to dig into people's alignments.

I can elaborate when I have more time if you want.


On AV: I'm trying to avoid talking about the Thing too much, but I will say that I would be pretty angry if I was being accused of being a wolf for something I didn't understand and the fact I'm not understanding it is why I'm being accused, regardless of my alignment.

Snow found the reason Xum is wolf. Nice.

[Snowblaze]

Snow found the reason Xum is wolf. Nice.

Congratulations, you have activated my paranoia.

[bladescape]

Congratulations, you have activated my paranoia.

Wow, it took this long?

I think that's a record. :smalltongue:

- - - Updated - - -

I actually have no concept of how far we are from EOD now.

[Cazero]

Guess I'll break the tie.
Xumtiil

[AvatarVecna]

Wow, it took this long?

I think that's a record. :smalltongue:

- - - Updated - - -

I actually have no concept of how far we are from EOD now.

Right around 2.5 hours, I believe.

[Cazero]

So it should be :

Xumtiil 6: Snowblaze, hollowkatt, bladescape, Mrs McGinty, Visor, Cazero
AvatarVecna 5: gac3, Book Wombat, Rogan, AvatarVecna, Murska
Book Wombat 2: flat_footed, 3SecondCultist
Cuthalion 1: Persolus
3SecondCultist 1: Cuthalion
Mrs McGinty 1: Xumtiil

[bladescape]

I am also probably open to pivoting to Flat.

- - - Updated - - -

Do I have a read on Snowblaze?

*Looks at hand that says 'read later'*

... Yes?

[3SecondCultist]

Right, sorry I'm late with this but my general sense of the game has changed based on some reflection and re-reading the thread a bit. Seeing the wagons helps a fair bit, and with only a few hours until EoD I want to hopefully help nail a wolf to the wall. I'm including the Thing from my perspective in my reads, as well as peoples' various reactions to it and movements around it. Obviously I moved as well, but I'm not going to townread myself (or ask anyone else to again, thanks Snow :smalltongue:).

Here we go.


Probably Town:

- gac3. It's highly unlikely that gac would go this far to defend BW if gac wasn't town. That's either really bad wolf play, or its town. gac isn't stupid, so I have to believe that gac is not obviously partnering up with BW. The logic of his posts fits, and his resolve plus the actual deciphering of BW's play leads me to conclude that gac is town.

- Snow. As far as I can tell, Snow is being her usual self and trying to solve as best she can. Does this automatically make her town? No. There's always a small chance I'm wrong, but the overall intent of her posting seems both helpful and genuine - things that would make her not a great wolf. I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. She could well be a neutral again (which would be funny as all hell), but I don't see scum here. One of my more confident town reads.

- Rogan. For much the same reasons as Snow, I've come to a similar conclusion. I do think that Rogan is wrong about AV - in the sense that BW not being a wolf does not automatically make AV one, no matter her experience - but the stance he's taken to then get a townie killed would be a bad wolf play. Rogan's also not stupid. So my reasons for townclearing him are actually somewhere between Snow's and gac's.

- BookWombat. First, an apology for the radical doubt. After rereading the Thing and the edit, I don't see a world where you're a wolf who took a risk like that on D1. Yes, it's possible that you're scum who did - in which case congratulations - but I can't really make that case and I don't feel like I should. Having both gac and Rogan in your corner helps you a lot, and lends a lot of credence to all three of you being town (or at least town-siding neutrals). In the interest of honesty though, I don't love your play from an OOC perspective. It feels vaguely metagamey, even if it is allowed. Ironically, that makes you more believable as town.

- AvatarVecna. Beyond the fact that I actually agree with Snow and don't think we should lynch AV because she didn't see something that a wolf could theoretically fake (I think's it's entirely possible that she legitimately didn't see it), her defense and the general candid nature of her posts leads me to lean more for town than anything else. The emotionality of her posts, while fakeable (see last game), doesn't read like a wolf. I don't think a wagon on her should really exist right now, and to prove my resolve I am moving my vote to counter it as best I can.

Maybe Town?

- Murska. Right now, I can see the logic in Murska's posts so far, and they've read to me as pretty good. I took my vote off of them pretty quickly because I was squinting to see scum!Murska and just couldn't do it. I think they're more likely to be town than not unless Xum gets lynched and flips scum. If that happens, Murska is in the unenviable spot of pushing a townie wagon over a wolf one, breaking the tie earlier. That's not good, and it would totally flip my read. So: town with a big asterisk. Murska is someone to look at D2 as well.

- bladescape. The fact that he is hard-pocketing town right now is kind of making me jumpy, but so far I've found his posts insightful and helpful, cutting through some of the more convoluted stuff to look clearly at the issues at play. That's more town than wolf to me. Similarly to Murska though, if Xum dies and flips town then I'm fairly certain it was a T/T day, in which case my townread is gone.


Null:

- Hollowkatt, Visor & Cuthalion. I haven't played with any of you before, and your posts haven't really been much of anything. You're all null to me now. I also haven't read your posts too much yet, but will do a look back assuming I survive to D2.


Maybe Scummy?

- flat_footed. The biggest argument against flat here is that flat made a BW wagon after AV jumped on it. Granted, other people did the same thing - including me! - but I did it with actually zero knowledge of the gambit and genuinely not understanding the logic of the play. Being a far more experienced player, flat should probably have assumed a townclear here. The fact that he didn't and also pointed at BW doesn't look great for him. I think a faint wolflean here is fair.

- Mrs. McGinty. I wanted to townlean MMG initially, but that didn't take. Right now, they're posting pretty vague impressions of people, and there's a gutping that I can't quite explain here (yes, I see the hypocrisy thanks). The biggest reason that they aren't a full scum is because blade vouched so hard for them, but I'm not buying it. There are two things that would change my read: the first would be if Xum flips town (in which case they get knocked down to scum) or if they and blade can offer a more tangible explanation or defense of their certainty. I could also see a neutral here, for whatever that's worth, based on what blade's said. If there's an SK in the game, my money right now is on it being MMG.


Scummy:

- Persolus. He's posted just enough reads to be active in the D1 meta, and the fact that I agreed with some of them until recently doesn't make me look very good, but there's something. Honestly could be a gut ping - and my gut is always wrong, as I'm learning - but he could be pocketing town to stay under the radar. I don't like it. Also, his last real post of substance was the hedgiest of hedging. 'Hmm, could be AV but honestly can't say, it's an interesting move to MMG but not sure about it' is blatantly drumming up suspicion on someone I'm fairly sure is town without actually casting a vote. It's wolfy without looking wolfy, which loops right back around to wolf.

- Cazero. He hasn't posted really that much of a lot at all, other than single word lines and putting in some votes. Posting just the vote count is a bad look too. I'm not sure this read will stick if Xum flips wolf, but the fact that he just jumped on one of the leading wagons to break the tie with no stated rationale makes me paranoid. No solves + tiebreaking wagon voting = wolf. If Xum flips town, I think Cazero will be worth some serious scrutiny D2.

- Xumtiil. Others have made this point already (see Snow and bladescape's posts above) so it feels like I'm jumping on the wagon, which I sort of am. But the posts so far haven't really done anything other than hedge, pop up just enough to say 'I'm here' - there is even literally a post that says 'pay attention to me' - and throw a bit of shade. That's wolfy, even to a new player like me. Even if Xum wasn't wolfy, it's the leading wagon besides AV and I really don't want to see AV lynched D1 over what I think is an honest misunderstanding. Sorry if you're town, but my vote's staying here until EoD.

[Cazero]

Here's some rationale for you :
It's day one. I can't solve **** and fully expect double town wagons. So I did the meaningful thing and pushed the wagon that didn't have a self-voter in it.
I knew I could get flak from it, but I figured I gotta give people something to read me.

[bladescape]

Here's some rationale for you :
It's day one. I can't solve **** and fully expect double town wagons. So I did the meaningful thing and pushed the wagon that didn't have a self-voter in it.
I knew I could get flak from it, but I figured I gotta give people something to read me.

Don't worry, I appreciate this.

- - - Updated - - -

Also 3SC is either town or I am being snowed hard by wolves rn.

- - - Updated - - -

Purely because several of their reads (With a few noted exceptions) match mine

- - - Updated - - -

And I don't mean it in a "There's a few things we agree on" kinda way.

I mean like that worldview post is 90% my worldview with 2 spots I definitely disagree with (you can guess one just by reading the post =P) and one more I'm juggling in my head.

[Rogan]

@AV: I've read your post. I hate it and feel personally attacked by you. I realize this makes me a bad judge of your alignment, but I personally think my case on you has enough basis for a day 1 wagon anyway, so I will keep my vote where it is, unless I get a good reason to not do so.

@Snow: I've presented my case, which is not touching the thing itself very much, but is about the handling of it. I'd like you to comment on this.
You have also asked me about other reads, so I'll give it a try.
Flat is slightly south of neutral right now, because he was active at the beginning when prodded, but gone silent afterwards. Also, his posts have been rather self centered and defensive, but that's not surprising cause it was early game and there was not much to go on. I would not feel bad about lynching him, despite his stats of dying early that AV presented. It's not a strong read and I don't mind waiting to see how flat develops on a later day, especially since there are some better cases to be made.
Xum... I guess I can see your points. I don't think they are stronger than my points against AV, so no vote change from my side. Also, if Xum really is about to die, I'd like them to explain the Glas or Plastic part. In fact, since it was related to AV, the other big wagon, I'd like to hear an explanation sooner rather than later.
I don't see what AVs point against MMG is. Her behavior so far seems fitting for your description and it is also something I might try, which is probably not a valid reason to clear her, but hey... It's day 1. If AV actually makes a case against her, I'll consider it, but honestly? I'm very unlikely to go there today. Similar to the Xum point above: if AV is about to die, I'd like her to explain her reasoning. The tiebreaker vote can be interesting, but this depends on the actual flips of the wagons. If AV flips wolf, I'd say there's a good chance of them being partners. If AV flips town, It's less meaningful. If Xum flips wolf, good look for MMG, otherwise a slight wolf lean from me. I can elaborate if necessary, but I'd rather see a flip related to this action before I really try to analyze it.
Vizor feels a bit opportunistic and worth some attention. But I don't think that's a good day 1 target.

Gac and Book are town. Both for the victory condition in itself, and for the way they have handled it.

Snow, I didn't get my usual townie feelings from you at the beginning. Right now, it's getting better. In general, I like the way you handle the victory condition problem. Especially since you actually made your position clear before the reveal. As I've said before, I'd still like to hear your opinion on my own treatment of AV.

If you want my opinion on someone else, please ask. In fact, everybody who wants to know something from me, please do so.
I should have some more time for this game now.

[AvatarVecna]

@AV: I've read your post. I hate it and feel personally attacked by you. I realize this makes me a bad judge of your alignment, but I personally think my case on you has enough basis for a day 1 wagon anyway, so I will keep my vote where it is, unless I get a good reason to not do so.

Spending basically a full day getting called an idiot, and then having me getting upset over being called an idiot used as further proof that I'm an idiot, has left me feeling rather uncharitable. Still doesn't really justify my behavior though. I'm sorry. Especially for the previous version of my response to your case.


I don't see what AVs point against MMG is. Her behavior so far seems fitting for your description and it is also something I might try, which is probably not a valid reason to clear her, but hey... It's day 1. If AV actually makes a case against her, I'll consider it, but honestly? I'm very unlikely to go there today. Similar to the Xum point above: if AV is about to die, I'd like her to explain her reasoning. The tiebreaker vote can be interesting, but this depends on the actual flips of the wagons. If AV flips wolf, I'd say there's a good chance of them being partners. If AV flips town, It's less meaningful. If Xum flips wolf, good look for MMG, otherwise a slight wolf lean from me. I can elaborate if necessary, but I'd rather see a flip related to this action before I really try to analyze it.

MMG hit a longrunning scumsign of mine. It's not something specific to her, it's something I just tend to see wolves fall into - including myself frequently, even though I'm more aware of this particular mental trap than most. The easiest way for wolves to avoid it is to explain it (especially if they've not gamed much with me before and have to hunt through dozens of games to find me discussing it), so I don't really feel like explaining it. It's not a strong case, but I feel weird about every big wagon right now, so McGinty would be my chop of choice for the moment if it had a chance in hell. Upside from my perspective: based on what you're saying here, it seems MMG is more likely to get checked if I flip, regardless of how I flip (either people checking her because my vote "defended" her, or people trusting my scumsign even if I refuse to explain it), so I'm feeling okay about that.

I'd definitely feel even better if I lived, Xum turned out to be scum, and then MMG/other wolves fall into the same scumslip and I can catch them all like D4 or something. May as well dream big, yknow?

- - - Updated - - -

Also I guess I'm mostly open to questions. Can't promise answers, let alone useful ones, but still.

[bladescape]

AV, answer this:

Questions?

[AvatarVecna]

AV, answer this:

Questions?

Vague, dodgy answer to a different question that looks like the one you asked if you squint.

[Snowblaze]

Present. May not be entirely functioning, but present. Looks like we're not in for too much EOD chaos, at least.

Anyway, yeah, 3SC is probably just town.

And I get the sense Persolus is... kind of sitting in the place that wolves I misclear normally do? I don't know if that makes any sense, but there's a couple of posts that have given me gut pings and my initial reason for townleaning him is not particularly strong. Will reevaluate after EOD.

(Part of me is lowkey paranoid about the lack of resistance to the Xumtiil wagon but also he has been genuinely wolfy and I have a lack of better ideas.)

I guess I'll make myself look at Rogan's AV case.

[bladescape]

Vague, dodgy answer to a different question that looks like the one you asked if you squint.

Acknowledgement, query about thoughts on players which are unrelated to the original question.

[AvatarVecna]

Acknowledgement, query about thoughts on players which are unrelated to the original question.

Outrage over and strong disagreement with the scumleans your question implies.

[bladescape]

Also I'm tempted to just vote Persolus and let it all blow around.

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Outrage over and strong disagreement with the scumleans your question implies.

Placating comments with a hint of condescension.

[Cazero]

Unrelated interjection with a poor attempt at comedic timing.

[Rogan]

Spending basically a full day getting called an idiot, and then having me getting upset over being called an idiot used as further proof that I'm an idiot, has left me feeling rather uncharitable. Still doesn't really justify my behavior though. I'm sorry. Especially for the previous version of my response to your case.



MMG hit a longrunning scumsign of mine. It's not something specific to her, it's something I just tend to see wolves fall into - including myself frequently, even though I'm more aware of this particular mental trap than most. The easiest way for wolves to avoid it is to explain it (especially if they've not gamed much with me before and have to hunt through dozens of games to find me discussing it), so I don't really feel like explaining it. It's not a strong case, but I feel weird about every big wagon right now, so McGinty would be my chop of choice for the moment if it had a chance in hell. Upside from my perspective: based on what you're saying here, it seems MMG is more likely to get checked if I flip, regardless of how I flip (either people checking her because my vote "defended" her, or people trusting my scumsign even if I refuse to explain it), so I'm feeling okay about that.

I'd definitely feel even better if I lived, Xum turned out to be scum, and then MMG/other wolves fall into the same scumslip and I can catch them all like D4 or something. May as well dream big, yknow?

First things first: Thanks for the excuse.

I don't think you are an idiot and I didn't intend to imply this in any of my posts. I'm sorry if you still felt this way.
To be clear: I was as confused as you were at the beginning of the thing. Only when Book said "You would get it unless you are a wolf" (or similar) It became clear to me and I got convinced that gac and book were town. I intended to defuse the situation a bit by telling you, yeah, they don't make things up. Obviously it backfired.

I don't fully agree with your assesment that MMG would need to be investigated, no matter how you flip. But I can see your point.
Since this post makes sense for me and (unless I missed a vote change / removal) you are still voting for yourself, despite being dangerously close to the lynch, I am willing to give you some credit.

I guess I can try to vote MMG now, altough I have to admit being curious if this wagon gains any traction is a huge part of it. I'd like to wait till Snows chimes in, but since time's running, I won't do it.

[Snowblaze]

Okay, so correct me if I'm summarising your case badly, but you're saying:
a) derailing discussion
b) showing anger/frustration
c) "it's NAI but I'm going to townread them anyway"
d) claiming Wombat is never a wolf when he's been a wolf twice
e) not really engaging with the Thing
f) saying you don't know how to read Wombat when you do

I've already mentioned why I think b) is NAI. c) is weird, yes, but I don't think it's wolfy weird. There are (I believe) valid reasons for town to say it.

e) is pretty understandable for me, since I've also been trying to minimise my engagement with the Thing; I'll need to double-check the context.

The rest relates to the Wombat discussion, which I didn't take in much the first time; since there's five minutes until EOD and you've already switched your vote I'll leave it for now and then if it's still relevant after the flip I can continue.

And also: vague statement that I will look into the current conversation after EOD.