The Swashbuckler's Elegant Maneuver

[Lokishade]

I know all class abilities aren't created equal. Some are more powerful/useful than others and that's fine. After all, what matters most is thematic relevance, along with a small sense of balance.

But I draw the line at the Swashbuckler's 13 level ability Elegant Maneuvre. Its overlap with Reliable Talent, which you got two levels earlier, makes it completely redundant. What's the point of rerolling when you already ignore half the results anyway?

Proficiency in Acrobatics is a given. You're a Rogue. You've signed for ludicrous stunts. As for Athletics checks, if you were inclined to climb walls and wrestle, by level 13 you'd have expertise to compensate for your usually mediocre strength. That's a minimum of 19 with a strength score of 8. As for Acrobatics, which key off your main stat, that's a minimum of 25.

Do you even need to roll by this point? With such ridiculous results guaranteed, I feel like Elegant Maneuver is completely redundant. So, I'm asking the playground. If you'd have to replace Elegant Maneuver with something, homebrew or not, what would it be?

[Sparky McDibben]

If you'd have to replace Elegant Maneuver with something, homebrew or not, what would it be?

Without agreeing with your premise, I'd either give them Unarmored Defense with Charisma instead of Con/Wis (although that feels like it should come earlier?) or a Riposte ability to hit someone who hits you in melee as a reaction (though that infringes on a Battlemaster maneuver).

[Gignere]

Without agreeing with your premise, I'd either give them Unarmored Defense with Charisma instead of Con/Wis (although that feels like it should come earlier?) or a Riposte ability to hit someone who hits you in melee as a reaction (though that infringes on a Battlemaster maneuver).

Maybe just replace it with 2d6 BM dice and one or two BM maneuvers. It would fit the name pretty well, and they did say the design space of expert classes is to steal from other groups.

[Sigreid]

Honestly, if I'm going to play a swashbuckler, I'm probably going to play a monk anyway with rapier, and Saber as monk weapons. That would feel more swashbuckley to me.

[Kane0]

Yeah getting some maneuvers seems appropriate given the name, but maybe let you use Panache as a Bonus Action and let your Uncanny Dodge work against Panache'd enemies without using your reaction?

[Dork_Forge]

I suppose the main benefit is really the Athletics bump, not many Rogues ime take prof/expertise in both Athletics and Acrobatics, but yeah it's a woeful feature, even just straight bonus prof would have been better.

I'd personally go for 5ft. speed boost, and one maneuver of your choice with one die recharging once per SR.

[Kane0]

Or just an extra ASI that could be spent on Athlete, Mobile, Skill Expert, Slasher/Piercer, Defensive Duelist, etc.

Edit: That would probably be the easiest solution, pick a shortlist of feats that feel appropriate and let them pick one.

[Catullus64]

Passive bonus to Running Jump distance equal to Charisma modifier, advantage triggers when you use your Bonus Action for Cunning Action rather than requiring a Bonus Action all its own, and you can use your reaction to halve falling damage.

Advantage is still meaningful even as your performance floors go up, because by the time you're a 13th level Swashbuckler, you should be attempting some pretty outrageous stuff on the regular.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe just replace it with 2d6 BM dice and one or two BM maneuvers. It would fit the name pretty well, and they did say the design space of expert classes is to steal from other groups. This question isn't about the UA, it's about the published game. (Do not disagree with your homebrew suggestion, though, except that there's a feat that does that also).

Passive bonus to Running Jump distance equal to Charisma modifier, advantage triggers when you use your Bonus Action for Cunning Action rather than requiring a Bonus Action all its own, and you can use your reaction to halve falling damage. All three? I think two out of three would be fine: the jump distance boost and halve the falling damage. Or are you looking at advantage for a skill check not for an attack?

Advantage is still meaningful even as your performance floors go up, because by the time you're a 13th level Swashbuckler, you should be attempting some pretty outrageous stuff on the regular.
I agree with you, on a thematic basis.

[Catullus64]

This question isn't about the UA, it's about the published game. (Do not disagree with your homebrew suggestion, though, except that there's a feat that does that also).
All three? I think two out of three would be fine: the jump distance boost and halve the falling damage. Or are you looking at advantage for a skill check not for an attack?


I did mean the Acrobatics & Athletics advantage that the feature currently grants, just without it eating your very valuable Rogue-Bonus-Action.

[KorvinStarmast]

I did mean the Acrobatics & Athletics advantage that the feature currently grants, just without it eating your very valuable Rogue-Bonus-Action. KISS principle instead:

Elegant Maneuver
Starting at 13th level, you gain Advantage on your Dexterity and Strengths checks, and take half of any falling damage.
Why not? Tier 3 powers need to be pretty good, and I like he 'half falling damage' idea to flesh it out. If you do miss that amazing leap or whatever, you recover better than anyone else. :smallsmile:

[Sparky McDibben]

KISS principle instead

Does that also give them advantage on initiative checks?

[KorvinStarmast]

Does that also give them advantage on initiative checks? Why not? Rogues and swashbucklers are nothing if not quick! :smallbiggrin:

[Gignere]

This question isn't about the UA, it's about the published game. (Do not disagree with your homebrew suggestion, though, except that there's a feat that does that also).
All three? I think two out of three would be fine: the jump distance boost and halve the falling damage. Or are you looking at advantage for a skill check not for an attack?

I agree with you, on a thematic basis.

I am not referring to UA only suggested if OP want to match WoTC’s design intent. Also the feat is for 1 dice not 2 so this is definitely better than the feat. Figured a level 13 feature should be better than just a feat.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am not referring to UA only suggested if OP want to match WoTC’s design intent. Also the feat is for 1 dice not 2 so this is definitely better than the feat. Figured a level 13 feature should be better than just a feat.
Ah, thanks for clearing that up, and no disagreement with you on the matter of the level 13 feature. :smallsmile:

[Lokishade]

I find giving advantage on abilities floored at 25 to be redundant. We may not agree on this, but we do seem to agree on the fact that Elegant Maneuver seems weak for a level 13 ability.

One facet of the Swashbuckler archetype I like a lot, with characters like D'Artagnan or Zorro, is the ability to cheat death. But not "cheat death" in an esoteric way. Cheat death through luck, cunning and fooling your enemy.

Reducing the falling damage from a failed stunt feels like the element that was missing in the equation, that non-esoteric "cheat death" Swashbucklers are known for.

[Nidgit]

Why not? Rogues and swashbucklers are nothing if not quick! :smallbiggrin:
Swashbucklers already get +CHA to intiative. Between that and naturally high DEX, I doubt they need advantage too.

Anyways, swashbucklers most of all among rogues should be good at stunts, so I think there's definitely an argument for the concept of Elegant Maneuver, if not the execution. Maybe something like substituting Performance for STR/DEX checks or adding Charisma to them.

Another option could be something that lets swashbucklers make better use of the environment, where you can get advantage for swinging from the chandelier or seizing the high ground or something.

[Tanarii]

IMX and IIRC the vast majority of Rogues I've seen don't have Acrobatics. Skills have more important uses and they already get Dex check bonus, and Acrobatic checks aren't that common anyway, other than escaping from Grapples. They're far more likely to take the way more commonly used Athletics skill, if they're going to spend a skill on one of the two. Granted if they take Athletics, it somewhat often gets Expertise after Stealth and Investigation, the two core Rogue skills.

Otoh I didn't see that many Swashbucklers. It came out fairly late in my long running campaign and it took a while for me to play test and allow XgtE, and then the game stores all temporarily closed a couple of years later, ending it. It's possible my experience/recall would have been different with a larger sample size of swashbucklers only.

[Dork_Forge]

IMX and IIRC the vast majority of Rogues I've seen don't have Acrobatics. Skills have more important uses and they already get Dex check bonus, and Acrobatic checks aren't that common anyway, other than escaping from Grapples. They're far more likely to take the way more commonly used Athletics skill, if they're going to spend a skill on one of the two. Granted if they take Athletics, it somewhat often gets Expertise after Stealth and Investigation, the two core Rogue skills.

I wouldn't necessarily call Investigation a core Rogue skill, whilst it's important and makes sense for them, I don't recall ever seeing one with it. Sleight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, even face skills are all hot contenders for their Expertises.


Otoh I didn't see that many Swashbucklers. It came out fairly late in my long running campaign and it took a while for me to play test and allow XgtE, and then the game stores all temporarily closed a couple of years later, ending it. It's possible my experience/recall would have been different with a larger sample size of swashbucklers only.

For what it's worth, imx it's one of the most common Rogues I see. I have two long-running games right now and both involve a multiclass character with Swashbuckler Rogue mixed in. It's a frequent choice for one shots I run/participate in, and is near the top of my own list of Rogues to play.

I do think, though, that part of that prevalence is the theme that comes alongside it, some players like to stay within subclasses for certain themes, rather than refluffing stuff. Combine a popular theme with attractive mechanics and you have a winner... mostly. Obviously Elegant Maneuver is a bit lacklustre, but that's more because Swash was mostly unchanged from it's SCAG design.

[Tanarii]

I wouldn't necessarily call Investigation a core Rogue skill, whilst it's important and makes sense for them, I don't recall ever seeing one with it. Sleight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, even face skills are all hot contenders for their Expertises.
It's core if you want to deduce the locations of traps and figure out how to disarm/disable them.

Perception is another secondary core skill if they want to be both a trap scout and a creature scout.

Sleight of Hand ... how often do Rogues in your campaigns actually pick pockets? Useful, but not a core use skill.

Face skills would make sense on a Rogue in an urban campaign, especially a swashbuckler.

[Dork_Forge]

It's core if you want to deduce the locations of traps and figure out how to disarm/disable them.

It's a useful skill, just not one that I've experienced Rogues really investing in, it just gets mopped up by another member. They identify, the Rogue disarms #teamwork


Perception is another secondary core skill if they want to be both a trap scout and a creature scout.

Definitely, and more likely than Investigation.


Sleight of Hand ... how often do Rogues in your campaigns actually pick pockets? Useful, but not a core use skill.

Actually fairly often, but that's not all that skill is for, it isn't even an example in the PHB. And even if it wasn't one of the most used skills, it's one a lot of Rogues I've seen take, because it's something they want to/feel they should be good at.


Face skills would make sense on a Rogue in an urban campaign, especially a swashbuckler.


Social interactions happen in every kind of campaign at various points, but again it's not even that they just want to be good at it, it fits the character idea/trope they're leaning into.

[Tanarii]

It's a useful skill, just not one that I've experienced Rogues really investing in, it just gets mopped up by another member. They identify, the Rogue disarms #teamwork

Definitely, and more likely than Investigation.In my experience the Rogue is stealthing ahead looking for traps via Investigation, with another member of the party that is stealthing ahead looking for enemies if they aren't very good at Perception.

[Yakk]

d20 with floor at 10 has an average value of (1d10+10 + 10)/2 or 12.8, but a median of 11.
d20 with advantage has an average value of 13.9, with a median of 14.
d20 with floor at 10 with advantage has an average value of (25% 10, 50% d10+10, 25% 2d10k1+10) = (2.5 + 7.75 + (17.18)/4) = 14.5, with a median of 14.

So this feature adds +1.7 to the mean and +3 to the median.

Reliable Talent is mostly worse than advantage. Reliable Talent adds +2.3 to the average, this almost doubles it.

A L 13 swashbuckler is significantly better at grappling than one without it; or any opposed roll. Reliable talent boosts your chance to do things that where easy to automatic; this one helps with harder stuff. Reliable talent doesn't help with harder stuff at all.

It is true with +15 you have an automatic 25. DC 30 (almost impossible) was a 30% chance before this feature, and 51% afterwards -- an effective +4 bonus to your roll against "almost impossible" DCs. At level 20 your +17 (+5 dex, expertise) requires a 13+. With reliable talent, that is 40% chance; with this feature, it is 64%.

It isn't clutch, but it ain't useless.

[Yakk]

So, a more fun (yet mathematically very similar) method would be a mini-portent.

Elegant Maneuver: As a bonus action a Swashbuckler can roll an Elegance d20. Once before the end of their next turn they may use their Elegance die roll to replace a Strength(Athletics) or Dexterity(Acrobatics) skill roll if they choose. In addition, as an action, the Swashbuckler can change an active Elegance die to a 20.

This is a better kind of advantage in a few ways.

1. You can see if your roll is going to be insanely good or not before you do it. This means you can *reliably* pull off nearly impossible things.
2. It interacts better with other advantage/disadvantage. It replaces the entire roll with disadvantage, and stacks with advantage.

The action option reflects the fact they can repeat this out of combat an number of times. So I made it a bonus+action to get a natural 20 on an acrobatics or athletics check. This is usually poor action economy in combat.

[strangebloke]

You could give them just about anything and it could be balanced

remember, thieves get a full extra turn at the start of combat, and they're not overpowered

+CHA to AC, move to an enemy and attack them as a reaction proficiency times per day, and you get to increase your CHA and DEX by four, even if it breaks the ability cap?

Sure, why not?

[Dork_Forge]

You could give them just about anything and it could be balanced

remember, thieves get a full extra turn at the start of combat, and they're not overpowered

+CHA to AC, move to an enemy and attack them as a reaction proficiency times per day, and you get to increase your CHA and DEX by four, even if it breaks the ability cap?

Sure, why not?

You're comparing the Thief's capstone to the Swash's 13th level ability, which really changes that comparison point since UMD is incredibly swingy based on loot and party composition.

[strangebloke]

You're comparing the Thief's capstone to the Swash's 13th level ability, which really changes that comparison point since UMD is incredibly swingy based on loot and party composition.

Rogues are a terrible class at high levels. Almost anything you can do with skills in this edition (barring your DM holding your hand and coming up with special rules like expertise-gated super skill checks) the rogue is doing consistently by 10th level and with magic assistance can do it even earlier. Beyond this, rogues have sneak attack, which is decent unoptimized damage but not much else, and cunning action, which is good but doesn't scale after level 2. They're pretty resilient to some types of enemies, or very very fragile against others, and they can fight at range so they're okay but if you compare them to the full casters it becomes pretty clear they need a lot of help.

You could give them all radically stronger abilities at every subclass level without breaking the game.

heck that's basically what the soulknife IS and almost nobody really calls them overpowered compared to anything other than rogues.

[Dork_Forge]

Rogues are a terrible class at high levels. Almost anything you can do with skills in this edition (barring your DM holding your hand and coming up with special rules like expertise-gated super skill checks) the rogue is doing consistently by 10th level and with magic assistance can do it even earlier. Beyond this, rogues have sneak attack, which is decent unoptimized damage but not much else, and cunning action, which is good but doesn't scale after level 2. They're pretty resilient to some types of enemies, or very very fragile against others, and they can fight at range so they're okay but if you compare them to the full casters it becomes pretty clear they need a lot of help.

You could give them all radically stronger abilities at every subclass level without breaking the game.

heck that's basically what the soulknife IS and almost nobody really calls them overpowered compared to anything other than rogues.

Err, my point was that you were using an entirely different level ability as the comparison point, not a commentary on Rogues in general.

Though, I don't share your opinion that they're bad at higher levels at all, you don't need to get bonzo magic powers to be relevant at high levels, and an additional ASI may be a bit bland/hard to quantify, but is a huge boon for them.

Even existing subclasses aren't really bad across the board, Swash's Panache is a great feature that synergises with all of the other Rogue skill shenanigans and Master Duelist is a great short rest resource. Inquisitives get to whack an additional 3d6 onto their Sneak Attack, Scouts can Sneak twice in one turn against different enemies, you've already mentioned Thief, and Arcane Trickster gets the kind of bumps you'd expect for a subclass getting scaling casting.

My only real complaint with Rogues at higher level as a whole is that they don't just get real blindsight.

To address your specific complaints:

- Cunning Action scales with things that improve what you do with it. Boost speed? Better Dash and Disengage. More reliable high Stealth rolls? Better Hiding.

- They're generally resilient, multiattack doesn't make Uncanny Dodge useless, and the combination of that, Evasion, and later Wis saves gives them a great all-round defensive package.

The ASI and subclasses give you the flexibility to do most things you might want to do, I'm not really seeing how full casters so dramatically outshine them in anything but five minute work days?

[strangebloke]

Though, I don't share your opinion that they're bad at higher levels at all, you don't need to get bonzo magic powers to be relevant at high levels, and an additional ASI may be a bit bland/hard to quantify, but is a huge boon for them.

Even existing subclasses aren't really bad across the board, Swash's Panache is a great feature that synergises with all of the other Rogue skill shenanigans and Master Duelist is a great short rest resource. Inquisitives get to whack an additional 3d6 onto their Sneak Attack, Scouts can Sneak twice in one turn against different enemies, you've already mentioned Thief, and Arcane Trickster gets the kind of bumps you'd expect for a subclass getting scaling casting.

My only real complaint with Rogues at higher level as a whole is that they don't just get real blindsight.

To address your specific complaints:

- Cunning Action scales with things that improve what you do with it. Boost speed? Better Dash and Disengage. More reliable high Stealth rolls? Better Hiding.

- They're generally resilient, multiattack doesn't make Uncanny Dodge useless, and the combination of that, Evasion, and later Wis saves gives them a great all-round defensive package.

The ASI and subclasses give you the flexibility to do most things you might want to do, I'm not really seeing how full casters so dramatically outshine them in anything but five minute work days?

Saying a rogue can be 'relevant' at high levels is what I would call 'damning with faint praise.'

Sure wizards can copy themselves and clerics can summon angels and druids can bring the entire petting zoo to play multiple times a day, but rogues can hide real good (from creatures that can't see them)!