what's the niche use of break enchantment?

[ciopo]

Greetings all.

Yesterday we got in a situation where we had to save some dominated children, lots of them at that.

My first gut reaction was to go with break enchantment, as I had that "relatively ready" as a sha'ir theurge, but upon reading it better, the casting time of 1 minute was a no-go for such a situation, since the said children were acting hostile to us, so in the end I used greater dispel magic instead.

But that got me thinking, unless the effect is specifically something that dispel magic can't dispel, up till 10th level break enchantment has the same effectivenes of dispel magic, and from 11th level onward greater dispel magic becomes available which gets the functionality of "as remove curse" break enchantment has

I previously thought the use case for break enchantment was to remove all enchantments/transmutation/curses from multiple targets, unlike dispel that if done area-wise it only removes "one effect top to bottom". But that minute casting time really kills using it in combat, so... I'm having a bit of a headscratch

is it maybe as a catch-all for out of combat statuses removal? like removing a flesh-to-stone without the specific stone-to-flesh? that's the only example that comes to mind at the moment that (greater) dispel magic wouldn't cover. Surely there are more

still bummed about that 1 minute casting time there, and it was jarring to discover

[Beni-Kujaku]

Flesh to stone, Flesh to Ice, Flesh to Salt, Curse, Jungle's Rapture, Rotting Curse of Urfestra, Addiction, Sap Strength and Starvation if you can't be bothered with resting a bit, Seething Eyebane, Mummy Rot and a few other monstrous abilities...
There are quite a few spells and effects that specifically say they can't be removed by Dispel Magic, but yeah, most of the time, Break Enchantment is just "not-quite-Greater" Dispel Magic, that also works for curses once in a while but can't be used in combat.

Interestingly, since it says it even reverses Instantaneous effects, Break Enchantment could restore ability damage or drain due to Transmutation effects (there are not a lot of these, but the Wu Jen's Poison Needle is one use case), Sword of Conscience (yes, you can remove a creature's conscience, and I love that.) and, weirdly enough, Power Words Disable, Weaken and Maladroit which are unaffected by Dispel Magic. It might even work as written for HP damage, but I wouldn't have my hopes up.

Also... Reincarnate is a Transmutation effect. If the guy really wants their old body back, Break Enchantment can undo Reincarnate. They will be dead, yes, but they will be in their previous body.

[AnonymousPepper]

-snip-

Also... Reincarnate is a Transmutation effect. If the guy really wants their old body back, Break Enchantment can undo Reincarnate. They will be dead, yes, but they will be in their previous body.

The target does not have to be willing, which is important for getting rid of curses that might screw with someone's mind, but that also creates the potential for some horrifying stuff.

It has occurred to me that someone who can reliably make a DC18 caster level check could in theory instant-kill a mid-level party in a reasonably high lethality campaign (i.e. one where everyone's had to partake of the reincarnate juice) with a no save, no SR, multi-target one minute cast.

Edit: Actually, since it would completely destroy your body, it's much worse.

If none of these happen after you are hit with a normal Reincarnate:

1. Die and have a Heightened Reincarnate cast on you
2. Die and have a Cyclic Reincarnation cast on you
3. Die and have a True Res cast on you
4. Die and have someone Wish for a new body (one of its explicit abilities), then cast Res/Raise Dead/etc. on you
5. Swap bodies by any of the various means

Then you are in theory liable to getting instantly killed by a Break Enchantment if someone can incapacitate you for one minute, regardless of any defenses other than Antimagic Field, Spell Turning, and Contingency counterspelling. Probably some other stuff I'm missing as well, but like, specific defenses against it, for the most part. You're a level 30 epic god wizard with all sorts of fun immunities and protections,but you still have the body you got from a Reincarnate, even if you permanently polymorphed into something else at some point? Skiddly skhan, your underlying body is gone.

[Darg]

If we take a strict reading of break enchantment the target must be a victim, not just the recipient of a spell. This means one would have to have been harmed, injured, or killed because of the effect. Because the spell is cast on an already dead character and they have a choice to return, it'd be really hard to classify them as a victim of the reincarnate spell.

On that note, it would also mean you wouldn't dispel beneficial effects.

[AnonymousPepper]

If we take a strict reading of break enchantment the target must be a victim, not just the recipient of a spell. This means one would have to have been harmed, injured, or killed because of the effect. Because the spell is cast on an already dead character and they have a choice to return, it'd be really hard to classify them as a victim of the reincarnate spell.

In this case, the target is your victim. :amused:

[ciopo]

This factoid about reincarnate sure is amusing. Thanks for the answers!

[Zanos]

Break Enchantment can remove Flesh to Stone without the victim having to make a DC 15 fortitude save vs. death, so it is weirdly better than Stone to Flesh and the specific thing that Stone to Flesh is for.

Other than that yeah, there are just some effects that specifically can't be removed with dispel that you need Break Enchantment for.

[Maat Mons]

I guess you could have gone around with a Magic Circle Against Evil. That suppresses Dominate Person in a mobile area. Walk around and collect as many kids as you can cover with a single casting of Break Enchantment, and then they'll sit still for the full minute because their minds are clear.

[Tzardok]

Kids sitting still? I know that D&D is a fantasy game, but that is absurd. :smalltongue:

[AnonymousPepper]

Break Enchantment can remove Flesh to Stone without the victim having to make a DC 15 fortitude save vs. death, so it is weirdly better than Stone to Flesh and the specific thing that Stone to Flesh is for.

Other than that yeah, there are just some effects that specifically can't be removed with dispel that you need Break Enchantment for.

The advantages of Stone to Flesh are 1. it's a standard action, so it works in combat, rather than just writing someone off as out of the fight if they get petrified, 2. that you don't have to make a caster level check versus the effect's CL - if you get petrified by a biiiig beastie or a higher level wizard, making the CL check can be quite difficult, and 3. it can do multiple petrified people at once; at CL11 and up with max targets, it's faster than Stone to Flesh, and below that, it still only consumes a single spell slot per attempt.

Flesh to Stone is fast, it always dispels the petrification, and if they fail the fort save, then, well, they were going to be out of the fight anyway and you have a nice, convenient, and expensive body for Raise Dead or Reincarnate. Break Enchantment is out-of-combat-only and does not always work, but there's no consequence for failure, it's multi-target, and it does more things than just removing petrification. I'd call them sidegrades of each other.

[ciopo]

there's also break enchantment is 5th level, stone to flesh is 6th level, so there's a "cheaper" angle

[AnonymousPepper]

there's also break enchantment is 5th level, stone to flesh is 6th level, so there's a "cheaper" angle

Leave it to me to forget the other obvious upside - Break Enchantment is available a level earlier, yes. Actually, it's available as a 4th for some classes, which means you can in theory get a scroll more easily just because of how item availability works.

[Thurbane]

Flesh to stone, Flesh to Ice, Flesh to Salt, Curse, Jungle's Rapture, Rotting Curse of Urfestra, Addiction, Sap Strength and Starvation if you can't be bothered with resting a bit, Seething Eyebane, Mummy Rot and a few other monstrous abilities...
There are quite a few spells and effects that specifically say they can't be removed by Dispel Magic, but yeah, most of the time, Break Enchantment is just "not-quite-Greater" Dispel Magic, that also works for curses once in a while but can't be used in combat.

Some other spells that reference BE as being effective:


Blackfire
Curse of Impending Blades
Curse of Lycanthropy
Curse of Petty Failing
Cursed Dragonmark
Familial Geas (?)
Geas, Lesser
Geas/Quest (?)
Laeral's Crowning Touch
Mark of Justice
Mark of Sin
Mark of the Outcast
Mind****
Remorseless Charm
Scourge
Suppress Legacy


there's also break enchantment is 5th level, stone to flesh is 6th level, so there's a "cheaper" angle

Also worth noting, some classes get early access to Break Enchantment: Trapsmith (3), Bard (4), Champion of Gwynharwyf (4), Death Delver (4), Hexblade 4, Knight of the Weave (4), Nentyar Hunter (4), Vigilante (4), Paladin (4).

Interestingly, Trapsmith 3 makes it legal to put the spell in an Eternal Wand. This also makes it a standard action to use (as would putting it in a potion - if it's legal for potions?).

[Analytica]

The target does not have to be willing, which is important for getting rid of curses that might screw with someone's mind, but that also creates the potential for some horrifying stuff.

It has occurred to me that someone who can reliably make a DC18 caster level check could in theory instant-kill a mid-level party in a reasonably high lethality campaign (i.e. one where everyone's had to partake of the reincarnate juice) with a no save, no SR, multi-target one minute cast.

Edit: Actually, since it would completely destroy your body, it's much worse.

If none of these happen after you are hit with a normal Reincarnate:

1. Die and have a Heightened Reincarnate cast on you
2. Die and have a Cyclic Reincarnation cast on you
3. Die and have a True Res cast on you
4. Die and have someone Wish for a new body (one of its explicit abilities), then cast Res/Raise Dead/etc. on you
5. Swap bodies by any of the various means

Then you are in theory liable to getting instantly killed by a Break Enchantment if someone can incapacitate you for one minute, regardless of any defenses other than Antimagic Field, Spell Turning, and Contingency counterspelling. Probably some other stuff I'm missing as well, but like, specific defenses against it, for the most part. You're a level 30 epic god wizard with all sorts of fun immunities and protections,but you still have the body you got from a Reincarnate, even if you permanently polymorphed into something else at some point? Skiddly skhan, your underlying body is gone.

This is actually kind of a major plot point in one of H. P. Lovecraft's best stories! You can use the Resurrection spell in reverse on revenants to banish them back to salts.

[St Fan]

What makes break enchantment really stands out, in my opinion, is the possibility to dispel supernatural effects (all of them normally unaffected by dispel magic) and instantaneous spells.

Among other thing, you could break an awaken spell, reverting back a druid's minions into normal animals or plants.

I'm sure a full list would include plenty similar surprising options.

[AnonymousPepper]

-snip-
Interestingly, Trapsmith 3 makes it legal to put the spell in an Eternal Wand. This also makes it a standard action to use (as would putting it in a potion - if it's legal for potions?).

Yo, that's a friggin' gamechanger. A CL20 Eternal Wand of Break Enchantment is gonna be a standard feature on my 20th level builds from now on. Standard action Break Enchantment is actually kinda busted good, regardless of the target spell level limitations, because of all the effects it can banish and being multitarget.

[Elenian]

Weirdly, Shadowcaster, of all classes, gets a standard-action break enchantment. It's saddled with bad shadow magic transparency effects, but still pretty effective (and combines with noctumancer well).

[Darg]

What makes break enchantment really stands out, in my opinion, is the possibility to dispel supernatural effects (all of them normally unaffected by dispel magic) and instantaneous spells.

It would only affect supernatural effects if it specifically says it is a transmutation, enchantment, or curse. I don't think any of them do.

[St Fan]

It would only affect supernatural effects if it specifically says it is a transmutation, enchantment, or curse. I don't think any of them do.

A supernatural effect doesn't need to SAY it's a transmutation, enchantment, or curse, just being described as similar to a spell of said schools.

A vampire's domination power is the first thing that come to mind. Likewise, most kind of polymorph (including turning to stone) or charm effects would be fair game.

And note that, through the psionics-magic transparency rules, "psychometabolism powers are equivalent to powers of the transmutation school" and "telepathy powers are equivalent to powers of the enchantment school", so that would work on these too.

[ericgrau]

Niche spells like this are great for staffs. You might only use it once in the entire campaign, but when you do it really matters. That provides a strong advantage over a permanent item or prepared spell that does it. I'd almost say scroll it instead of a staff, except the caster level check means you may need to cast it multiple times. What you do is get multiple of these that aren't too expensive for your WBL, and often 1 or 2 if it's a scroll or other one-off item (and doesn't have a caster level check). Even if you only use half of them the whole campaign it's a great deal to be so prepared. It's something I've done to great effect on a few characters, though if it's not high level you can't get much beyond level 1-2 scrolls. The other way is to be a cleric and prepare some break enchantments (or other niche spell) the day after someone gets whammied. Not something on your regular list, but something to write down that you can swap in. Wizard works great too, though it's not as easy as a cleric to get multiple high level backup spells for niches. When you have plenty of extra slots at high level you can leave 1-2 per level open to prepare with 15 min notice.

[Thurbane]

Niche spells like this are great for staffs.

A Domain Staff (Liberation, Luck, Spell etc.) would be good for this too.

[Darg]

A supernatural effect doesn't need to SAY it's a transmutation, enchantment, or curse, just being described as similar to a spell of said schools.

A vampire's domination power is the first thing that come to mind. Likewise, most kind of polymorph (including turning to stone) or charm effects would be fair game.

And note that, through the psionics-magic transparency rules, "psychometabolism powers are equivalent to powers of the transmutation school" and "telepathy powers are equivalent to powers of the enchantment school", so that would work on these too.


Dominate (Su)

A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

I was wrong about there not being any; however, break enchantment wouldn't be able to undo a basilisk's gaze because it has no similarity text. As for psionics-magic transparency rules, that is what they are for. Of course, you can make them opaque and it wouldn't affect psionics too.

[ciopo]

I was wrong about there not being any; however, break enchantment wouldn't be able to undo a basilisk's gaze because it has no similarity text. As for psionics-magic transparency rules, that is what they are for. Of course, you can make them opaque and it wouldn't affect psionics too.

might depend if the petrified condition itself is tagged as a transmutation effect? it isn't in the srd, but maybe in the rules compendium

[Darg]

might depend if the petrified condition itself is tagged as a transmutation effect? it isn't in the srd, but maybe in the rules compendium

It doesn't have anything. An effect is only an effect if it is classified as such. Turn undead causes an effect similar to a fear effect, but is not a fear effect because it doesn't say it is.

[ShurikVch]

I previously thought the use case for break enchantment was to remove all enchantments/transmutation/curses from multiple targets, unlike dispel that if done area-wise it only removes "one effect top to bottom". But that minute casting time really kills using it in combat, so...
Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm#imbueArrow): as a standard action, and at range of your bow

[Doctor Despair]

I believe we (the forum) have established this as a negative by consensus, but is there a game definition for "effect?" If not, we default to a real-world definition, which is very, very broad. Being turned would definitely qualify as an effect. Turn undead definitely qualifies as a fear attack regardless.

[Darg]

I believe we (the forum) have established this as a negative by consensus, but is there a game definition for "effect?" If not, we default to a real-world definition, which is very, very broad. Being turned would definitely qualify as an effect. Turn undead definitely qualifies as a fear attack regardless.

It does not. If it were, undead would be immune to it. The RC makes quite a few mistakes and the Fear section is quite the "cake hitting the fan" type of thing.

[Doctor Despair]

It does not. If it were, undead would be immune to it. The RC makes quite a few mistakes and the Fear section is quite the "cake hitting the fan" type of thing.

Turn Undead would affect undead regardless of whether it is a fear attack or not (not all fear effects are mind-affecting; only fear attacks) by merit of specific trumping general. In general, undead are immune to mind-affecting effects, but turning specifically affects undead.

[St Fan]

I was wrong about there not being any; however, break enchantment wouldn't be able to undo a basilisk's gaze because it has no similarity text.

That would be more of a DM's decision than anything else.