Paladin vs Cleric for tier 1 and 2 in a 3 man campaign

[Seekergeek]

So we're starting a new homebrew campaign this weekend after two and a half years in the dungeon of the mad mage climbing 1-20. Attrition has seen our PC pool drop from 5 to 3 for (at least the start) of this new campaign. We are starting at level 1 and will progress to level 12 or so according to the DM. Multiclassing is off the table, but due to an interesting table rule for stats, we are all sharing the best rolls made by any of the players. That means my 14, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7 rolls are out of play and I get to enjoy 17, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11.

My fellows are playing a fighter and a ranger. Both STR based, with the fighter planning to land on battle master and the ranger going drake warden. Neither of the other two are optimizers and the fighter is being played by our usual DM who is just enjoying getting to play a PC for once and has zero interest in any part of it beyond choices made for character sake.

Due to campaign setting reasons, I'm debating between a paladin and a cleric. Obviously the lack of a full caster seems like a consideration - but the DM has assured us he'll take our party composition into consideration, so the primary concern for me is enjoyment and versatility. Levels 1-5 I think the zeal domain cleric may actually come out ahead of the paladin on most metrics as far as versatility, combat capability, and support go. A full caster spread of magic and a comprable skill selection seem to have the versatility question pretty well weighted in favour of the cleric. The inclusion of the smite spells in the domain list certainly goes a long way to initially offset the paladin's divine smite contribution and spiritual weapon closes that gap even more by level 3. I'm not so sure that is the case from 5-12, especially since I don't see an oppotunity to get my hands on booming blade.

Somehow, despite having played 5e since it was D&DNext, I've never played either class and I don't know, outside of a white room, how they stack up side by side in play.

[Angelalex242]

The only upside to Paladin is that a Fighter and STR Ranger can and probably will be standing next to you and enjoying your auras as a Paladin.

But I was at an Adventure's League epic recently without a full caster, and an easy encounter turned into impossible due to lack of AOE. And Paladins (Which I am) are single target killers.

[LudicSavant]

So we're starting a new homebrew campaign this weekend after two and a half years in the dungeon of the mad mage climbing 1-20. Attrition has seen our PC pool drop from 5 to 3 for (at least the start) of this new campaign. We are starting at level 1 and will progress to level 12 or so according to the DM. Multiclassing is off the table, but due to an interesting table rule for stats, we are all sharing the best rolls made by any of the players. That means my 14, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7 rolls are out of play and I get to enjoy 17, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11.

My fellows are playing a fighter and a ranger. Both STR based, with the fighter planning to land on battle master and the ranger going drake warden. Neither of the other two are optimizers and the fighter is being played by our usual DM who is just enjoying getting to play a PC for once and has zero interest in any part of it beyond choices made for character sake.

Due to campaign setting reasons, I'm debating between a paladin and a cleric. Obviously the lack of a full caster seems like a consideration - but the DM has assured us he'll take our party composition into consideration, so the primary concern for me is enjoyment and versatility. Levels 1-5 I think the zeal domain cleric may actually come out ahead of the paladin on most metrics as far as versatility, combat capability, and support go. A full caster spread of magic and a comprable skill selection seem to have the versatility question pretty well weighted in favour of the cleric. The inclusion of the smite spells in the domain list certainly goes a long way to initially offset the paladin's divine smite contribution and spiritual weapon closes that gap even more by level 3. I'm not so sure that is the case from 5-12, especially since I don't see an oppotunity to get my hands on booming blade.

Somehow, despite having played 5e since it was D&DNext, I've never played either class and I don't know, outside of a white room, how they stack up side by side in play.

Seems like your party already has single target Str dudes, and as such almost certainly stands to benefit more from Cleric, especially pre-6.

An AoE Cleric such as Light (or if it's actually allowed, Zeal -- just since you mention it) would be especially useful in providing AoE capability to your team.

[animorte]

Yes, I would probably go with Cleric on this one. For more versatility I would take Knowledge or Trickery. Of course, if the DM caters to the strengths and weaknesses of your party well enough, this really shouldn’t matter.

Having the extra spells can make a huge difference obviously. But again, if your DM does in fact model the adventure to what you all are capable of, it probably won’t make that big a difference.

If you trust the DM to balance everything and you all are just looking to have a good time (which is kind of the point anyway), then go with Paladin. You won’t be very versatile but your auras, damage, and healing are still very strong. A couple months ago was a thread just talking about how Paladin is easily one of the strongest classes in Tier 2.

[KorvinStarmast]

I get to enjoy 17, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11. Cleric, standard human: you will then enjoy: 18, 16 16 13 12 12.
S 16 D 12 C 16 I 12 W 18 Ch 12.
I'd suggest Life Cleric or Knowledge cleric. I'd lean hard on the latter since you can get more skill checks, successfully, thanks to the Channel Divinity. Suggested Cantrips: Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame


My fellows are playing a fighter and a ranger. Both STR based, with the fighter planning to land on battle master and the ranger going drake warden.

Cleric is a good class with lots of good stuff in tiers 1 and 2. By level 12 you'll have 5th and 6th level spells.

Have fun. :smallsmile:

[Amechra]

Alternatively, you could ignore all of this very sound advice, and just commit to the whole "we are three BEEFY FRIENDS" aesthetic. After all, your DM did say that they'd take your party composition into account, so being meh at range is acceptable.

[Gignere]

The Zeal domain is pretty amazing, it blends both Tempest and light into a solid domain. It’s good at melee, good at nuking and with spiritual weapon and cantrips will not be too shabby at range either.

Maximizing damage on fireball is straight up OP already.

Edit: actually it’s a combination of some of the best parts of war, light and tempest domain.

[CTurbo]

As much as I love Clerics, I'd actually choose Paladin with those stats and considering there is no Cha character to cover the social pillar.

I don't see anything wrong with playing all Str characters, and like somebody earlier mentioned, your buddies would benefit from your Auras.

[Seekergeek]

Well here’s a stinker of a curveball for you, then (and me, too!): I’ve decided against all reason to be dex based and cover the scout and infiltration roll regardless of class. Background will provide me with thieves tools and stealth prof.

I have certainly considered the need for a face in the group, but I believe the ranger popped a 16 into cha and took persuasion and intimidation as background skills.

[animorte]

Well here’s a stinker of a curveball for you, then (and me, too!): I’ve decided against all reason to be dex based and cover the scout and infiltration roll regardless of class. Background will provide me with thieves tools and stealth prof.

I have certainly considered the need for a face in the group, but I believe the ranger popped a 16 into cha and took persuasion and intimidation as background skills.

Love it! You’ve got some of the basic things you would need from a Rogue, so let’s go with a Mercy Monk. You’ve got the stats for it, you get some healing, and you’re just going to be all over the place!

Or you could still just go with a full caster (Cleric) for the blasting. With scout and infiltration stuff covered, you’ll be extremely versatile.

[Corlindale]

Knowledge Cleric is a great infiltrator. Any skill/tool proficiency on demand is super handy, and Read Thoughts + free Suggestion solves a ton of social infiltration issues. Plus some great scouting spells later on, especially Arcane Eye.

[Wuzza]

we are all sharing the best rolls made by any of the players. That means my 14, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7 rolls are out of play and I get to enjoy 17, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11.

Off topic, but that is genius, I'm stealing that for sure :)

[JellyPooga]

Well here’s a stinker of a curveball for you, then (and me, too!): I’ve decided against all reason to be dex based and cover the scout and infiltration roll regardless of class. Background will provide me with thieves tools and stealth prof.

I have certainly considered the need for a face in the group, but I believe the ranger popped a 16 into cha and took persuasion and intimidation as background skills.

I've played Stealth Paladin before and I can't say I had any problems. You don't even need that much Dex to do it (unless you really feel the need to dump Str and wear Light Armour).

With your array I might look at something like;
Race: Stout Halfling
Background: Criminal or Urchin
Class: Paladin
Str 15, Dex 12+2, Con 17+1, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 15

Medium (Breastplate) Armour, Spear + Shield (switching up whether you 2-H with Versatile or S&B depending on scenario), Defence or Interception Fighting Style, pick up Sentinel and be the worlds smallest Spartan.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well here’s a stinker of a curveball for you, then (and me, too!): I’ve decided against all reason to be dex based and cover the scout and infiltration roll regardless of class. Background will provide me with thieves tools and stealth prof.
I have certainly considered the need for a face in the group, but I believe the ranger popped a 16 into cha and took persuasion and intimidation as background skills.
For a stealth paladin, I'd go Ancients or Watchers Oath.
With those stats, take vHuman and get the medium armor master feat.
(No stealth penalty and an extra Dex add on to your medium armor).
17, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11.
S 12 D 16 C 16 I 11 W 11 Ch 17

Charisma is your casting stat. It's your aura boost stat. If you are a Watcher Oath it's your initiative adding stat at level 7.
I'd get it to 18 at either level 4 or level 8.

What feats are allowed at your table, if any?

My other suggestion would be
S 12 D 17 C 16 I 11 W 11 Ch 16

And pick up resilient Dex at level 4. That gives you three proficient saves: Dex, Wisdom, Charisma. I don't think Dex will ever need to be higher than 18.

Bring Cha to 18 at level 8 and you are good to go. :smallsmile:

[Thunderous Mojo]

Well here’s a stinker of a curveball for you, then (and me, too!): I’ve decided against all reason to be dex based and cover the scout and infiltration roll regardless of class. Background will provide me with thieves tools and stealth prof.

I have certainly considered the need for a face in the group, but I believe the ranger popped a 16 into cha and took persuasion and intimidation as background skills.

Cleric of Trickery could be an interesting option here.
All Clerics, have access to the Silence spell, which is a fantastic boon for infiltration. Clerics of Trickery have access to the at will Blessings of the Trickster and Pass Without Trace.

Clerics of Trickery also have Charm Person and Dominate Person as Domain spells, so against Humanoids at least, you have some capacity to influence their will.

Prepared Casters, (in my experience), can shine brightly in an Adventuring Group with a small membership. The Cleric tool kit has a number of tools, that you can swap in and out on Long Rests.

I would also recommend coordinating your spells between your comrades.
A cleric in a party with a Wizard, likely does not have to Prepare the Detect Magic spell.

Given your party, your cleric might be the only person in the group that can prepare it.

[Keravath]

After reading about the Zeal cleric, I'd think that is your better option if only because of the broken combination of spells and abilities.

The level 2 channel divinity to max fire and thunder damage as you cast the spell is particularly notable. This is especially true when the additional spell list is filled with AoE thunder and fire spells - Shatter, Fireball, Destructive wave (1/2 the damage is thunder), Flame Strike.

Twice every short rest a zeal cleric can cast these doing maximum damage.

It is a ridiculous amount of AoE capability on top of the usual cleric Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon and later Banishment.

The archetype also has heavy armor and martial weapons making it good for melee especially with the stats you have to throw at it. You'd be likely starting with at least 18 in wisdom.

With a cleric like that, you probably don't need a wizard though I would expect the DM to pop in a few fire resistant or immune enemies from time to time just to make it interesting.

The paladin has its own advantages especially with the aura and the bonus to saves which is probably the weakest aspect for this group but overall the cleric has more on offer (especially since they can make a second melee attack as a bonus action wis mod times a day as well) though I would likely not use spell slots on smite spells most of the time since the cleric is the only one with healing word and other spells (bless, spiritual weapon etc) that might be a better use of spell slots most of the time.

Anyway, if the DM allows the Zeal cleric then it effectively fills several combat roles that the party doesn't currently have. In that case, the biggest weakness for the party will likely be skills which you might be able to partly cover using feats.

If you do decide to go paladin, you could consider a dex paladin since multiclassing is off the table anyway. Which might be a fun option. The paladin also allows for at least one character that should be good at, at least one, social skill given the high charisma.

Either way, with only 3 characters and no multiclassing there will always be tradeoffs and gaps.

P.S. I didn't see your later post about playing a dex character. An Arcane trickster rogue might give you some spell options but the party will be very low on healing.

[Foxydono]

First off, there is no wrong option, so play what is most fun. Both Cleric and Paladin are both great single class options. Zeal is by all means one of the greatest cleric subclass and since you lack aoe, it might be the best choice. Also because it is a full caster

On the other hand, I would be tempted playing a dex-based Conquest Paladin. As mentioned before, because you are all melee, the aura is big plus. The enemy speed is reduced to 0 when feared (7th level), just shove and they can't get up and everyone attacks with advantage.

With the good stats you can play half elf and leave cha/con at 16 and go with 19 dex (or Str). Take a Elven Accuracy and have fun. The fighter can take crowed control feats like sentinal and you can do all sorts of fun stuff. I think the classes have a nice synergy.

[Sception]

Dexadin works fine, especially in a no-multiclassing campaign with an above-average stat array, either rapier and shield or dual scimitars. Your party is a bit shy on aoe & control, though, so if you do go paladin consider Oath of Conquest, which has a bit more aoe and control than other paladins via various frighten effects and spells. Human is always good for any paladin and is flexible with stats. If you'd prefer something a bit more exotic, eladrin has the right stat mods for a dexadin, the bonus action teleport per short rest is extremely nice to have on a paladin - especially one that doesn't have any teleportation spells on their oath list - and if you just commit to winter aspect all the time you'll have a nice frighten rider tacked on that synergizes nicely with Conqueror's subclass aura. It also qualifies for elven accuracy to help fish for crits with dual scimitars.

17, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11.

eladrin pally, S: 11, D: 17, C: 15, I: 11, W: 12, H: 18

ASIs: 4: elven accuracy [+1 dex], 8: Resilient [constitution], 12: +2 Charisma.

Combat Style: dueling if you plan to go strict sword and board, defense if you plan to dual wield at all, or Blessed Warrior for guidance and just general style points, though it's slightly less useful for dexy conquerors since you can use a bow as a backup ranged weapon so snagging sacred flame or toll the dead isn't as beneficial.

...

All that said, while I really like the idea of the all-warrior party trio, given your existing party members and your desire to fill in for a rogue, a trickster cleric is probably the better fit, and spirit guardians will likely be at least as useful to the party as aura of protection.

[Seekergeek]

Man. You guys have been tremendously helpful. With game day fast approaching, I’ve settled on a dex based cleric with the urchin background. Zeal SEEMS to be on the table. My DM hasn’t mentioned nixing it when I include it in the list of domains I’m considering. I’ll be starting with an 18 in Wis a 16 dex a 16 con and a 14 cha. Skills are shaping up to be acrobatics, insight, perception, persuasion, religion, stealth. For race I am leaning toward hexblood mostly because I’ve got a stat spread that benefits from +1/1/1 and the eerie token seems like it will have some fun uses and because zeal is bonkers enough as it is that I don’t feel the need to squeeze every little drop out of every decision. If zeal gets pulled, light still gets me fireball and a good aoe CD option. Twilight is also another option and gives me some aura alternatives to paladin.

[Frogreaver]

If the other players weren't optimizing alot I wouldn't pick zeal cleric. You'll overshadow them too much.

I would also avoid Twilight Cleric. They make it very hard for the DM to challenge the party through conventional means. Since your DM is saying he will gear difficulty of campaign to your PC's then that could make it harder instead of easier for your team.

I'd say your best non OP cleric for you is life or light. Though depending on how little they actually optimize, i might pick an overall worse cleric option that's really strong in tier 1. Something like War Cleric. Guiding Bolt and Inflict wounds are great spells in this tier with his +10 attack channel divinity. Bonus points if you take lucky or ritual caster owl familiar to get advantage on those spell attacks as well.

[CTurbo]

There's nothing wrong with a Dex Paladin. I played a Dex halfling Pally and eventually got a Scimitar of Speed and it was a great character. A lot of fun for sure.

Clerics are great though. I absolutely love the Tempest. It's both very strong and very fun. Zeal is very similar and should be pretty great too.

If going Dex Cleric, I'd actually recommend a subclass that has Potent Spellcasting and doesn't grant heavy armor or martial weapons that would go to waste. I mean you COULD use a Rapier, but Clerics using Dex weapons just feels odd/weird/wrong IMO.

I recommend either Light or Arcana.

Light seems to be under-rated, but it's a very good subclass that's a lot of fun to play.

Arcana is also really good, and becomes REEEEEEALLY good at level 17.

[animorte]

On the Dex Paladin note, I actually prefer to run Dex on anything when I get the chance, including the very rare Barbarian occurrence (which is always a multi-class anyway).

[Gignere]

If the other players weren't optimizing alot I wouldn't pick zeal cleric. You'll overshadow them too much.

I would also avoid Twilight Cleric. They make it very hard for the DM to challenge the party through conventional means. Since your DM is saying he will gear difficulty of campaign to your PC's then that could make it harder instead of easier for your team.

I'd say your best non OP cleric for you is life or light. Though depending on how little they actually optimize, i might pick an overall worse cleric option that's really strong in tier 1. Something like War Cleric. Guiding Bolt and Inflict wounds are great spells in this tier with his +10 attack channel divinity. Bonus points if you take lucky or ritual caster owl familiar to get advantage on those spell attacks as well.

I disagree with the point about not choosing zeal if others aren’t optimizing.

As long as he doesn’t play to the Zeal cleric’s maximum strengths, there is no reason that he will over shadow the other players. That domain can act as an insurance policy such that when things turn south he can turn it up to save the party.

[stoutstien]

Personally I think light is a better blaster than zeal anyways. Maximized damage is fine and all that but light has a huge AoE that isn't competing with the same resource as SG. 30 ft radius is that biggest area anyone gets before cone of cold size effects comes online. Being con based is a bitter mercy with this size because it doesn't factor in any cover below full.

[Gignere]

Personally I think light is a better blaster than zeal anyways. Maximized damage is fine and all that but light has a huge AoE that isn't competing with the same resource as SG. 30 ft radius is that biggest area anyone gets before cone of cold size effects comes online. Being con based is a bitter mercy with this size because it doesn't factor in any cover below full.

I agree but Zeal is better at everything else, tanking/melee and even some degree of control by auto pushing creatures after thunder damage.

[Sception]

I think zeal's being overestimated a bit in this thread, especially for this character. It's good, but heavy armor and martial weapon proficiencies aren't that big a deal on a character who's going with dex over strength. A few bonus action weapon attacks per day are great at level one, but will quickly be eclipsed by spellcasting. CD for max damage on a fire or thunder spell is great, especially with that domain list, but even a max damage fireball isn't ~all that much~ better than spirit guardians over the course of a fight, and plain old spirit guardians doesn't eat your channel divinity. Divine Strike is nice in theory but on a full spellcaster without extra attack you'll mostly have moved on from the weapon attack action by the time you get it. It's still very good, and a solid choice for this party in particular given the lack of aoe damage otherwise, but you won't be overshadowing either of your peers at the stuff they do best.

Honestly, if you're looking for a blaster domain, I agree with stoutstein that light will likely be the better choice for this character at most levels. light as a bonus cantrip isn't much, but if you're going for dex over strength it does more for you than extra weapon and armor proficiencies. warding flare will stay useful for you over the whole campaign where zeal's bonus action melee attacks will start useful then quickly get left behind. Radiance of dawn as an extra blast (and a really good one for when you get it) does way more for you at levels 2 to 4, and even after you get fireball an extra blast per short rest will help with longevity a lot more than a 1/short rest ability to make one of your daily blast spells stronger - especially since you can quickly run out of top level spell slots to maximize where as radiance doesn't rely on any other resources and just works when you use it. Plus radiance of dawn is party friendly, so you don't have to worry about friends in melee. You might miss the forced movement from zeal, but yeah all in all I think light is the better call, especially as you aren't planning on going strength based to take advantage of the heavy armor & weapon proficiencies.


The only domain I'd avoid for maybe being too strong and ruining fun is twilight cleric, and in a party this small even that's not ~as~ busted as it would be in a 5 man group.

[Master O'Laughs]

Another hat tip to light is with Potent Spellcasting adding WIS modifier to cantrip damage, Word of Radiance goes from 2d6 to every enemy around you within 5' to 2d6+4 (possibly +5) damage.

Another option is Nature to get thorn whip cantrip which you can use to get extra Spirit Guardians damage. If enemy is on edge of SG range, step 5' away and then Thorn Whip them to pull them back into the AoE triggering the damage again.

[stoutstien]

I agree but Zeal is better at everything else, tanking/melee and even some degree of control by auto pushing creatures after thunder damage.

Eh. I think zeal is decent but most of its options don't mesh with the basics cleric chassis so in the end it an ok gishy option but by the time you are tanking in traditional cleric fashion it's a wash

[Frogreaver]

Eh. I think zeal is decent but most of its options don't mesh with the basics cleric chassis so in the end it an ok gishy option but by the time you are tanking in traditional cleric fashion it's a wash

The true power of zeal is maximized fireball in tier 2 and maximized shatter in tier 1. That’s encounter trivializing damage in those tiers. Even if you don’t outright kill, you’ve injured enough that enemies quickly die.

[Gignere]

The true power of zeal is maximized fireball in tier 2 and maximized shatter in tier 1. That’s encounter trivializing damage in those tiers. Even if you don’t outright kill, you’ve injured enough that enemies quickly die.

At levels 1-2 zeal cleric can bonus action attack for very consistent damage. Basically there is no levels at least until late t2 it wouldn’t be contributing in a meaningful way. Late t2 and higher it’s basically like any other cleric.

[Frogreaver]

At levels 1-2 zeal cleric can bonus action attack for very consistent damage. Basically there is no levels at least until late t2 it wouldn’t be contributing in a meaningful way. Late t2 and higher it’s basically like any other cleric.

I do not understand the relevance of this comment.

[stoutstien]

The true power of zeal is maximized fireball in tier 2 and maximized shatter in tier 1. That’s encounter trivializing damage in those tiers. Even if you don’t outright kill, you’ve injured enough that enemies quickly die.

It's good but it's still taking a spell slot and a CD to pull off. neither are friendly fire safe and are ranged which puts them at odd with the Martial/weapon focus of the rest of the domain(I prefer ranged zeal clerics personally). They have burst in spades but that's not always what you need. It's a solid upgrade form tempest in most cases and that's fine. Boring IMO. If I want a melee cleric I'd still go death or arcana.

The light cleric wants to jump in the middle of everything and SG and/or use there massive CD blast to clear the field. This plays to the natural strengths the cleric has. They still have fireball on tap and even if it's not maxed it's still good enough for when you want a boom.

[Frogreaver]

It's good but it's still taking a spell slot and a CD to pull off. neither are friendly fire safe and are ranged which puts them at odd with the Martial/weapon focus of the rest of the domain(I prefer ranged zeal clerics personally).

I don't agree. Shatter or Fireball is generally something you will want to use when the encounter opens, afterwards you would shift towards melee. Using it at the start of the encounter also tends to mitigate friendly fire issues.


They have burst in spades but that's not always what you need.

Nothing is always what you need. Ranged High Damage Large AOE burst damage is very powerful though especially through tier 1 and 2.


If I want a melee cleric I'd still go death or arcana.

I'd agree with the caveat - the Zeal Cleric isn't a melee cleric, it's a burst cleric with some melee capabilities.


The light cleric wants to jump in the middle of everything and SG and/or use there massive CD blast to clear the field.

IMO, it's generally better to remove some threats or at least severely weaken them before jumping into the middle of everything. Zeal clerics maximized fireball will be better for this.


This plays to the natural strengths the cleric has. They still have fireball on tap and even if it's not maxed it's still good enough for when you want a boom.

Zeal Cleric has SG and his melee capabilities when in confined spaces, which is still pretty dang good when that's the scenario.

[CTurbo]

As an avid Tempest Cleric lover, I think the CD of being able to maximize damage of Thunder/Lightning spells is not only a very strong feature, but also one of the FUNNEST features in the game.

The very first time I got attack after hitting level 2 with my first Tempest, I used the CD to maximize the 2d8 damage from Wrath of the Storm insta-killed that guard. As silly as that sounds, it was a great memorable moment in my 5e history that I'll always remember.

I was at level 3 with a different Tempest, and we had 20 Gnolls coming our way. The other guys wanted to run because 20 Gnolls should have been too much for us to handle, but I waited until they got within range and dropped a maxed Shatter right in the middle of the pack killing 10 of them instantly and leaving 6 more with half damage. We had little trouble taking care of the rest. Later, the DM told me that we weren't supposed to fight them and he had vastly underestimated the Tempest's capabilities.

Very very fun and effective.

I've never played a Zeal, but I think the Tempest makes one of the better melee Clerics. Zeal should as well. I've even played a Polearm Master Tempest and never felt underpowered in melee. Actually, of the 4 or 5 Tempests I've played, I've only ever played 1 that was Dex based and therefor played more like a blaster.

[Seekergeek]

I was just eyeing up tempest again once I stumbled across the errata which (kinda?) improved the utility of call lightning. Question on that front - now that the cloud doesn’t have to be 100 feet above you anymore, can the cloud go around corners or must the room it is cast in be 120ft in diameter?

[CTurbo]

I was just eyeing up tempest again once I stumbled across the errata which (kinda?) improved the utility of call lightning. Question on that front - now that the cloud doesn’t have to be 100 feet above you anymore, can the cloud go around corners or must the room it is cast in be 120ft in diameter?

I'd say the room has to be big enough to satisfy the 10ft tall, 60ft radius size of the cloud. The room would probably have to be at least 20ft tall in order for a 10ft tall cloud to be able to produce lightning strikes. I'd probably allow the cloud to go around corners, but you still can only call down lightning at points that you can actually see.

[stoutstien]

I don't agree. Shatter or Fireball is generally something you will want to use when the encounter opens, afterwards you would shift towards melee. Using it at the start of the encounter also tends to mitigate friendly fire issues.



Nothing is always what you need. Ranged High Damage Large AOE burst damage is very powerful though especially through tier 1 and 2.



I'd agree with the caveat - the Zeal Cleric isn't a melee cleric, it's a burst cleric with some melee capabilities.



IMO, it's generally better to remove some threats or at least severely weaken them before jumping into the middle of everything. Zeal clerics maximized fireball will be better for this.



Zeal Cleric has SG and his melee capabilities when in confined spaces, which is still pretty dang good when that's the scenario.

I think a lot of this comes down to play or table expectations. Personally I think the chances of combat starting in a way where you can safely drop a maximized AOE spell without roasting at least one ally is so rare it's not worth considering or the party already has such a tactical upper hand that expending the extra resources to try to end that encounter sooner is a waste.
You can build a zeal domain to be a very effective alpha striker but you have to pretty much disregard half the chassis. You're going to be Dex focus for initiative so heavy armor is a waste, you're also rarely going to be mixing into the melee (or at least not until the cleanup phase) so the smite spells are additionally redundant, your feat selection is going to change, and of course party composition is Paramount.
You can get some pretty silly numbers with a zeal cleric 6+/fighter 2-3. I've never sat down and hashed out a evoker Zeal combo but it probably works out pretty well.

I like cleric is almost the other end of the spectrum for AoE. They want to maximize the spirit guardian formation and blender. Channel Divinity is ridiculously easy to use and let me reiterate it's range is massive. It's so massive that it's not hard to visualize multiple styles of encounters that the additional targets are going to pick up is going to easily bypass maximizing damage in a smaller area. It's not necessarily flashy but it is effective.

[Miele]

If you are set between paladin and cleric, I'd pick cleric for sure. Light cleric is very good and quite fun, offering the usual cleric chassis with some good AoE in t1 and t2.
Should you consider a different class, I'd pick land druid. It offers good spellcasting, good control and amazing scouting capacity.
I know, I love druids way too much!