Interpreting Chameleon Mimic Class Feature

[Zombulian]

I was just perusing the Piggy Knowles Archer Build thread and in one of the builds they mention acquiring 5 different turning pools for the purpose of DMM. 3 of those pools were supposed to come from the 3/day uses of Mimic Class Feature.
This to me seems like a remarkably liberal and seemingly unfounded interpretation of the ability. From my reading, the feature seems to allow you to Turn/Rebuke undead up to 3 times per day and it only allows the active use of the ability, not even granting a pool in the first place.
Am I wrong? Is Chameleon one of the best DMM abusers around?

[bean illus]

I argue for allowing the Chameleon TU to fuel feats, but i don't call it 3 pools.

There's no such thing as a turning pool, there's only the ability to turn undead.

[Gruftzwerg]

The chameleon’s class features allow you to adopt a variety of roles, from armored warrior to spellcaster to sneaky rogue. You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

It's questionable if he may pick DMM at all as chameleon. You could argue that he might bypass that limitation with his bonus feat, depending how your DM interprets that sentence.

[Zombulian]

It's questionable if he may pick DMM at all as chameleon. You could argue that he might bypass that limitation with his bonus feat, depending how your DM interprets that sentence.

Oh yeah I wasn’t looking for qualification necessarily, though that’s a good think to know. The build got turning from other sources. But it does feel like Mimic shouldn’t let you use the turning for DMM anyway, since you don’t just have turning as a feature, you have it as an effect that comes from another ability.

[Gruftzwerg]

Oh yeah I wasn’t looking for qualification necessarily, though that’s a good think to know. The build got turning from other sources. But it does feel like Mimic shouldn’t let you use the turning for DMM anyway, since you don’t just have turning as a feature, you have it as an effect that comes from another ability.

It's arguable..

...
You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using.
...

"one turn or rebuke attempt" is referring imho to a "single Daily Turn or Rebuke Charge", which the Chameleon doesn't have. He can use his Mimic ability to produce the "effect of Turn or Rebuke Undead".

Mimic could be used to fuel things that require you to use/channel the ability. but not to emulate the charges of those abilities (since you sole have Mimic charges).

But all this is imho arguable. You could also say that the quote is referring to channeling the ability into the feat, in which case it should work.

[bean illus]

It's arguable..


"one turn or rebuke attempt" is referring imho to a "single Daily Turn or Rebuke Charge", which the Chameleon doesn't have. He can use his Mimic ability to produce the "effect of Turn or Rebuke Undead".

Mimic could be used to fuel things that require you to use/channel the ability. but not to emulate the charges of those abilities (since you sole have Mimic charges).

But all this is imho arguable. You could also say that the quote is referring to channeling the ability into the feat, in which case it should work.

Except that of course there's no such thing as a Turn charge.

Nor does DMM ask for TU class ability. It ask for the energy from the ability to turn undead, which the Chameleon has.

[Zombulian]

Except that of course there's no such thing a Turn charge.

Nor does DMM ask for TU class ability. It ask for the energy from the ability to turn undead, which the Chameleon has.

They don’t, though. They have an ability that can manifest as basically the same ability in terms of effects, but they do not actually have the ability passively to draw on with the free action that DMM requires. At the risk of being that idiot who mentions quantum states while not fully understanding them, you can kinda analogize it that way. Clerics have an ability called Turn Undead that is just around all the time. Chameleon’s have an ability that exists in a state of being 1 of 4 (I think) things depending on what you choose in the moment. Before
you choose it by using the standard action to activate the ability, you don’t have Turn Undead.

[bean illus]

They don’t, though. They have an ability that can manifest as basically the same ability in terms of effects, but they do not actually have the ability passively to draw on with the free action that DMM requires. At the risk of being that idiot who mentions quantum states while not fully understanding them, you can kinda analogize it that way. Clerics have an ability called Turn Undead that is just around all the time. Chameleon’s have an ability that exists in a state of being 1 of 4 (I think) things depending on what you choose in the moment. Before
you choose it by using the standard action to activate the ability, you don’t have Turn Undead.

But the feat doesn't ask if you are out of daily attempts. The feat ask if you can turn undead. Chameleon even mentions the sacred energy of a deity.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly which argument i was making here. I was interrupted while typing it, and submitted before reading it for ambiguous interpretation. I think my point had to do with the newly underlined part. As in, chameleon can turn undead, it is an attempt, if cham only has limited access in a day, so does everyone.

[Quertus]

"one turn or rebuke attempt" is referring imho to a "single Daily Turn or Rebuke Charge", which the Chameleon doesn't have. He can use his Mimic ability to produce the "effect of Turn or Rebuke Undead".

Mimic could be used to fuel things that require you to use/channel the ability.


Except that of course there's no such thing a Turn charge.

Nor does DMM ask for TU class ability. It ask for the energy from the ability to turn undead, which the Chameleon has.

So… does a Rogue with UMD get to power DMM to totally OP levels by mimicking turning?

[bean illus]

So… does a Rogue with UMD get to power DMM to totally OP levels by mimicking turning?

I guess that's up to you.

I can tell you that I've never heard of anyone playing that way.

[Gruftzwerg]

But the feat doesn't ask if you are out of daily attempts. The feat ask if you can turn undead. Chameleon even mentions the sacred energy of a deity.
Really?
"..spend one turn or rebuke attempt.."
You can call it however you want: Daily Charges, Daily Uses, or even Daily Attempts. Chameleon still doesn't qualify here with his "Mimic Class Feature ability".

Imho a Chameleon can "expand the effect" of Turn Undead, but he can't "spend an attempt", cause he doesn't have any.



So… does a Rogue with UMD get to power DMM to totally OP levels by mimicking turning?

UMD = Use Magic Device

I wasn't aware that we have DMM items/devices... ;)

You can't use UMD to activate feats (unless the feat is on an item/device). Problem solved I hope

[Menzath]

Really?
"..spend one turn or rebuke attempt.."
You can call it however you want: Daily Charges, Daily Uses, or even Daily Attempts. Chameleon still doesn't qualify here with his "Mimic Class Feature ability".

Imho a Chameleon can "expand the effect" of Turn Undead, but he can't "spend an attempt", cause he doesn't have any.




UMD = Use Magic Device

I wasn't aware that we have DMM items/devices... ;)

You can't use UMD to activate feats (unless the feat is on an item/device). Problem solved I hope

Well, in theory one could UMD a nightstick and then qualify as having turn attempts since you would need to emulate the class feature to use it.
You would have a base of 0 attempts plus 4 from the item.

[bean illus]

But the feat doesn't ask if you are out of daily attempts. The feat ask if you can turn undead. Chameleon even mentions the sacred energy of a deity.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly which argument i was making here. I was interrupted while typing it, and submitted before reading it for ambiguous interpretation. I think my point had to do with the newly underlined part. As in, chameleon can turn undead, it is an attempt, if cham only has limited access in a day, so does everyone.


Really?
"..spend one turn or rebuke attempt.."
You can call it however you want: Daily Charges, Daily Uses, or even Daily Attempts. Chameleon still doesn't qualify here with his "Mimic Class Feature ability".

Imho a Chameleon can "expand the effect" of Turn Undead, but he can't "spend an attempt", cause he doesn't have any.



I'm not sure exactly which argument i was making here. I was interrupted while typing it, and submitted before reading it for ambiguous interpretation. I think my point had to do with the newly underlined part. As in, chameleon can turn undead, it is an attempt, if cham only has limited access in a day, so does everyone.

Many of us have heard this debate before, and i am by no means the only one who sees it as "ability to turn undead" means the ability to turn undead. Which chameleon does have.

If one starts at cleric, the first mention of attempt is "may attempt to turn". It simply means the attempt might fail. Chameleon also attempts, because failure is an option.

In fact, if chameleon turn didn't say (Su), and "the power of your faith through a holy symbol", and "as cleric", then i would understand. Yet, it does. And knowing that the designers often write "as class ability" makes it seem as, 'if they didn't then you can'.

Nor do i find it all that over balanced. Chameleon can already do about everything. They're a bit mad, and already have a feat req. A common chameleon build has 8 +1 feats, while able learner, DMM, persist, touchstone, and extra slot x2 is 6 of them. If we assume xtra TU, and leave the floating feat open, that's 7 of 8 feats

I've wondered what's the worse case in my (correct) reading. As a 3 level dip it does little to help a DMM cleric, and as 9-10 levels I'm not seeing how it increases chameleon power beyond what it is.

I'm not trying to change your mind. Around here we allow it. I'm just answering the OP with my opinion, and disagreeing with Piggy's reading.


Well, in theory one could UMD a nightstick and then qualify as having turn attempts since you would need to emulate the class feature to use it.
You would have a base of 0 attempts plus 4 from the item.

But i personally don't read that as 'the ability to turn undead'.

Nevertheless, i can't see how allowing it hurts anything. Where would the divine spells come from? Now we have a cha focused multiclass rogue that often doesn't hit their DC, who barely has any spells, and is short on feats.

I know that y'all are all better optimizers than i, so if you can break that (in some way that outshines all/most other rogues), i would cheer for you.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not sure exactly which argument i was making here. I was interrupted while typing it, and submitted before reading it for ambiguous interpretation. I think my point had to do with the newly underlined part. As in, chameleon can turn undead, it is an attempt, if cham only has limited access in a day, so does everyone.

Many of us have heard this debate before, and i am by no means the only one who sees it as "ability to turn undead" means the ability to turn undead. Which chameleon does have.

If one starts at cleric, the first mention of attempt is "may attempt to turn". It simply means the attempt might fail. Chameleon also attempts, because failure is an option.

In fact, if chameleon turn didn't say (Su), and "the power of your faith through a holy symbol", and "as cleric", then i would understand. Yet, it does. And knowing that the designers often write "as class ability" makes it seem as, 'if they didn't then you can'.

Nor do i find it all that over balanced. Chameleon can already do about everything. They're a bit mad, and already have a feat req. A common chameleon build has 8 +1 feats, while able learner, DMM, persist, touchstone, and extra slot x2 is 6 of them. If we assume xtra TU, and leave the floating feat open, that's 7 of 8 feats

I've wondered what's the worse case in my (correct) reading. As a 3 level dip it does little to help a DMM cleric, and as 9-10 levels I'm not seeing how it increases chameleon power beyond what it is.

I'm not trying to change your mind. Around here we allow it. I'm just answering the OP with my opinion, and disagreeing with Piggy's reading.



I've to admit that I'm not 100% sure about this. First due to possible translation mixups (to a lesser extend), and second because I'm unsure about the designer's intention here.
While the designer seems to have intended that you can barely qualify with your Chameleon stuff, it's not 100% clear imho to which extend this can be taken.
But imho I see a mechanical difference between what the Chameleon has/can do and what is required. The question for me is just "is this what they intended or not". I'm really unsure about this.

From a balancing point of view, it's definitively not gamebreaking. But on the other hand it's a strong option to have and thus it would be nice to know what the intention here really was/is.

[Quertus]

UMD = Use Magic Device

I wasn't aware that we have DMM items/devices... ;)

You can't use UMD to activate feats (unless the feat is on an item/device). Problem solved I hope

Aren’t there rules and precedents for putting feats in items? Maybe such an item has never been published, but doesn’t what has been published give credence to the possibility?

[Gruftzwerg]

Aren’t there rules and precedents for putting feats in items? Maybe such an item has never been published, but doesn’t what has been published give credence to the possibility?

Custom items are sole possible with DM fiat. By default there is no item with DMM.
And all that doesn't help our "rule discussion" here, since (allowing such an item) it's a subjective DM decision and not a rule by default.

edit: edited the last sentence to prevent misunderstandings.

[Zombulian]

I'm not sure exactly which argument i was making here. I was interrupted while typing it, and submitted before reading it for ambiguous interpretation. I think my point had to do with the newly underlined part. As in, chameleon can turn undead, it is an attempt, if cham only has limited access in a day, so does everyone.

Many of us have heard this debate before, and i am by no means the only one who sees it as "ability to turn undead" means the ability to turn undead. Which chameleon does have.

If one starts at cleric, the first mention of attempt is "may attempt to turn". It simply means the attempt might fail. Chameleon also attempts, because failure is an option.

In fact, if chameleon turn didn't say (Su), and "the power of your faith through a holy symbol", and "as cleric", then i would understand. Yet, it does. And knowing that the designers often write "as class ability" makes it seem as, 'if they didn't then you can'.

Nor do i find it all that over balanced. Chameleon can already do about everything. They're a bit mad, and already have a feat req. A common chameleon build has 8 +1 feats, while able learner, DMM, persist, touchstone, and extra slot x2 is 6 of them. If we assume xtra TU, and leave the floating feat open, that's 7 of 8 feats

I've wondered what's the worse case in my (correct) reading. As a 3 level dip it does little to help a DMM cleric, and as 9-10 levels I'm not seeing how it increases chameleon power beyond what it is.

I'm not trying to change your mind. Around here we allow it. I'm just answering the OP with my opinion, and disagreeing with Piggy's reading.



But i personally don't read that as 'the ability to turn undead'.

Nevertheless, i can't see how allowing it hurts anything. Where would the divine spells come from? Now we have a cha focused multiclass rogue that often doesn't hit their DC, who barely has any spells, and is short on feats.

I know that y'all are all better optimizers than i, so if you can break that (in some way that outshines all/most other rogues), i would cheer for you.

I agree here definitely. In fact, as the DM for my group I would absolutely allow it (though not Piggy’s pooling interpretation). I just don’t think RAW specifically supports it. I don’t think RAI even comes up here because I don’t think the writers had considered divine feats at all while writing the class.

[bean illus]

I ... don’t think RAW specifically supports it. I don’t think RAI even comes up here because I don’t think the writers had considered divine feats at all while writing the class.

I'm not sure i agree. Though possibly through omission due to publication evolution, i still see instances of "as cleric" (or etc), and instances of "as class ability" often enough to use their presence or absence as standard guidelines. I see RAW saying 'use divine energy'.

Whether you can use chameleon to qualify for DMM is another matter. The workaround is pick up DMM from somewhere else, which limits the builds to very few sources. After all, why(/how) would a DMM cleric dip 3 levels of chameleon? It's kinda cool, but it doesn't help.

There's a similar argument with Factotum's opportunistic piety. Though not a class ability, it absolutely channels divine energy.

There's no block on facto's feats, so a facto 5/ cham 3 with persistent DMM is possible. It's MAD, as cham TU is cha based, facto TU is wis based, and facto is heavily int baased. It's strange too, because you don't actually have the inspiration until the encounter starts, so can't DMM in advance.

Facto 11 is good, with cunning surge and cunning breach. Facto 11/ cham 3/ Sacred Exorcist 1 gets 3 turning pools. Two based on 10 charisma, maybe with a +2 competence (3+1, 3+1, +1 ... 9). Facto turns are wisdom based (3 +2 +1 ... 6). Throw on extra turning for 4 turns: 9+6+4 = 19. Higher levels might get better bonuses, maybe find a total of 24 turns.

You get Facto 11/ chameleon 8/ Sacred Exorcist 1
It cost able learner, extend, persistent spell, and dmm, and extra turning. Four feats left to do anything. I suppose you could go extra turning x5, for 40 total TU. Could probably reach 48 TU. Make it illumian, use NaenHoon, persist Greater Mirror Image and Greater Blink.

Yeah, that's broken. Whoops, sorry. But really, most of that still works as well or better with other builds. DMM + extra turning is broken.