stats size modifiers and dragons

[koumpou69]

every single dragon from the monster manual1-5 to dragons of faerun is missing something very important, stat size modifiers, according to the monster manual there is no reason that dragons wouldnt get them, although dragons advance by age there is still a very obvious correlation to their racial hd's and their size, dragons even have advancement for example the wyrmling black dragon can be advanced from 4hd to 5hd and 6hd but very obviously a 7hd black dragon is a very young black dragon and not a wyrmling, even if we accept the argument that because dragons advance by age and not hd (although every age category is a 3hd advancement) they dont get the stat size modifiers we can clearly see from the titanic creature template that even creatures that have increased sizes without correlations to their hd advancement get the stat size modifiers (although for the titanic creature there are some discrepancies the reason i assume being that monster manual 2 is 3e not 3,5e) or for example the animal growth spell, they also may not get stat increases every 4 hd but i will have to check it out, what are your opinions? for me it seems they were not included for balancing reasons but mechanically there doesnt seem to be any reason not to

[spectralphoenix]

Dragons get size modifiers, they're just already figured into their stats. For instance, if you look at the Green Dragon table on pg 74 of the MM, it lists the AC for a wyrmling as 15 (+1 size, +4 natural.) The attack bonuses aren't explicitly spelled out, but if you do the math it gets +5 base, +1 for the strength modifier, and +1 for size, which equals the attack value given by the book of +7.

[Saintheart]

every single dragon from the monster manual1-5 to dragons of faerun is missing something very important, stat size modifiers, according to the monster manual there is no reason that dragons wouldnt get them, although dragons advance by age there is still a very obvious correlation to their racial hd's and their size, dragons even have advancement for example the wyrmling black dragon can be advanced from 4hd to 5hd and 6hd but very obviously a 7hd black dragon is a very young black dragon and not a wyrmling, even if we accept the argument that because dragons advance by age and not hd (although every age category is a 3hd advancement) they dont get the stat size modifiers we can clearly see from the titanic creature template that even creatures that have increased sizes without correlations to their hd advancement get the stat size modifiers (although for the titanic creature there are some discrepancies the reason i assume being that monster manual 2 is 3e not 3,5e) or for example the animal growth spell, they also may not get stat increases every 4 hd but i will have to check it out, what are your opinions? for me it seems they were not included for balancing reasons but mechanically there doesnt seem to be any reason not to

Holy single sentence, Batman!

First, there's no question that dragons do advance by HD, given their "Advancement:" entry in their stats specifies what happens when you add HD to them. However, unlike most monsters, as you've pointed out, adding HD to a dragon results in it flipping up an age category.

I haven't gone fossicking through all the sources (and maybe Draconomicon has something to say about it) but I suspect the reason is because dragon age categories don't behave like normal HD advancement does. They're an outlier, an exception. One of the first indicators you have for that is because their physical stat increases don't follow the normal rules for HD advancement.

Normally, under regular old HD advancement, the only ability score increases monsters get are the same as any player gets: a +1 to an ability score with every 4 HD. Start with the black dragon and that goes straight out the window even from Wyrmling to Pimply Teenager Very Young: STR goes up by 2 despite only 3 HD being added.

EDIT: In fact I just realised, to my amusement, that there is a simple explanation for why a black dragon's STR rises by 2 when it goes from Wyrmling to Very Young: because it increased in size, from Tiny to Small. Per WOTC's own rules about size increases when improving monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm), when you flip from Tiny to Small, your STR increases by +2.

In virtually all other respects for that increase in age category, the stats increase as the Dragon type specifies: +3 BAB for 3 HD, +1 to the Breath Weapon DC for 2 HD, as a (Su) ability, all saves increase by +1 for 3 HD because a dragon's saves are all Good.

But even if change in size explains a +2 to STR from Wyrmling to Very Young, when we go from Very Young to Young, we've got +2 to STR, CON, INT, and WIS - again, way out of line with normal HD advancement and player ability score advancement. And so on.

Also, normally, the HD Advancement line would tell you when the creature flips to a bigger Size, too. It doesn't, for dragons. Instead, it tells you what age category the dragon is, and the dragon's size is set by its age category according to the table.

The SRD stats record how size is taken into account: look at the black dragon's AC from Wyrmling to Very Young. At Wyrmling, it's AC 15 (10 +2 size, +3 natural) (and is Tiny size). At Very Young, it's AC 17 (10 +1 size, +6 natural) (and is Small size). Increase in Size cuts the AC, but the creature is getting wild Natural Armor bonuses to more than compensate for it ... again, another thing that just doesn't happen in normal advancement by HD. And no DEX bonuses to AC to take into account, because the black dragon always has DEX 10, i.e. no DEX bonus to actually be added to AC. (EDIT: here, I admit, is the one case where it appears True Dragons don't take size penalties to their stats into account, or at least have been written to ignore DEX penalties on size. At least according to WOTC's tables, you should be taking a -2 to DEX for size at some point in your growth, but a dragon never does.)


HD advancement generally I think of as the monster getting more "levels" in a class dictated by its type. With True Dragons, though, it's less that the dragon is proceeding through "levels" in a class as proceeding from one different monster to the next, at least mathematically. It does mostly follow the rules for increases by HD, but a lot of exceptions are thrown in for the simple (and, in my view, justifiable) reason that dragons are meant to be special and dangerous. Their name's on the front cover of the game, after all.


(EDIT: Also, if it's 'size modifiers' in terms of attack rolls you're talking about, well, let's do the math for the lower end just to check it:

Wyrmling Black Dragon's total attack bonus: +6. BAB = +4, consistent with 4 HD of the dragon type. Size = Tiny, which gives a +2 to attack rolls. STR bonus = 0, its STR is 11. Total of +6.
Very Young Black Dragon's total attack bonus: +9. BAB = +7, consistent with 7 HD of the dragon type. Size = Small, which gives a +1 to attack rolls. STR bonus = +1, its STR is 13. Total of +9.

I haven't gone through the rest, but I'm assuming the table is right.)

[Beni-Kujaku]

In short: size stats adjustments are an abstraction that is supposed to represent a creature doubling in size. Dragons do get physical stats adjustment, but theirs is much smoother, as they are supposed to slowly increase in size at each age category until they go above the threshold to be considered of the larger size category. The youngest Medium black dragon is Young, the youngest Large is Young Adult, the youngest Huge is Mature Adult, having respectively 15, 19 and 27 Str. It doesn't follow exactly the regular stat adjustment (notably, gaining only 4 instead of 8 Str when going from Medium to Large, as you said for balancing reasons), but is overall similar, and dragons gain much more than physical stats when going up a size category, notably much better natural armor than the size adjustment table mandates, so it kind of balances out in the end.

Alternatively, you can consider each dragon age category as its own monster, and that dragons advance by changing into another creature, so they don't follow the regular ability advancement. That's very common for creatures with several sizes, like elementals (even Earth doesn't advance as quickly as the size advancement table would mandate), or the four elemental Outsiders (notably the Small to Medium versions of Tojanidas, Salamanders, Xorns and Arrowhawks only gain +2 Str).

[koumpou69]

Holy single sentence, Batman!

First, there's no question that dragons do advance by HD, given their "Advancement:" entry in their stats specifies what happens when you add HD to them. However, unlike most monsters, as you've pointed out, adding HD to a dragon results in it flipping up an age category.

I haven't gone fossicking through all the sources (and maybe Draconomicon has something to say about it) but I suspect the reason is because dragon age categories don't behave like normal HD advancement does. They're an outlier, an exception. One of the first indicators you have for that is because their physical stat increases don't follow the normal rules for HD advancement.

Normally, under regular old HD advancement, the only ability score increases monsters get are the same as any player gets: a +1 to an ability score with every 4 HD. Start with the black dragon and that goes straight out the window even from Wyrmling to Pimply Teenager Very Young: STR goes up by 2 despite only 3 HD being added.

EDIT: In fact I just realised, to my amusement, that there is a simple explanation for why a black dragon's STR rises by 2 when it goes from Wyrmling to Very Young: because it increased in size, from Tiny to Small.Per WOTC's own rules about size increases when improving monsters[/URL], when you flip from Tiny to Small, your STR increases by +2.

In virtually all other respects for that increase in age category, the stats increase as the Dragon type specifies: +3 BAB for 3 HD, +1 to the Breath Weapon DC for 2 HD, as a (Su) ability, all saves increase by +1 for 3 HD because a dragon's saves are all Good.

But even if change in size explains a +2 to STR from Wyrmling to Very Young, when we go from Very Young to Young, we've got +2 to STR, CON, INT, and WIS - again, way out of line with normal HD advancement and player ability score advancement. And so on.

Also, normally, the HD Advancement line would tell you when the creature flips to a bigger Size, too. It doesn't, for dragons. Instead, it tells you what age category the dragon is, and the dragon's size is set by its age category according to the table.

The SRD stats record how size is taken into account: look at the black dragon's AC from Wyrmling to Very Young. At Wyrmling, it's AC 15 (10 +2 size, +3 natural) (and is Tiny size). At Very Young, it's AC 17 (10 +1 size, +6 natural) (and is Small size). Increase in Size cuts the AC, but the creature is getting wild Natural Armor bonuses to more than compensate for it ... again, another thing that just doesn't happen in normal advancement by HD. And no DEX bonuses to AC to take into account, because the black dragon always has DEX 10, i.e. no DEX bonus to actually be added to AC. (EDIT: here, I admit, is the one case where it appears True Dragons don't take size penalties to their stats into account, or at least have been written to ignore DEX penalties on size. At least according to WOTC's tables, you should be taking a -2 to DEX for size at some point in your growth, but a dragon never does.)


HD advancement generally I think of as the monster getting more "levels" in a class dictated by its type. With True Dragons, though, it's less that the dragon is proceeding through "levels" in a class as proceeding from one different monster to the next, at least mathematically. It does mostly follow the rules for increases by HD, but a lot of exceptions are thrown in for the simple (and, in my view, justifiable) reason that dragons are meant to be special and dangerous. Their name's on the front cover of the game, after all.


(EDIT: Also, if it's 'size modifiers' in terms of attack rolls you're talking about, well, let's do the math for the lower end just to check it:

Wyrmling Black Dragon's total attack bonus: +6. BAB = +4, consistent with 4 HD of the dragon type. Size = Tiny, which gives a +2 to attack rolls. STR bonus = 0, its STR is 11. Total of +6.
Very Young Black Dragon's total attack bonus: +9. BAB = +7, consistent with 7 HD of the dragon type. Size = Small, which gives a +1 to attack rolls. STR bonus = +1, its STR is 13. Total of +9.

I haven't gone through the rest, but I'm assuming the table is right.)


in draconomicon we learn that dragons and advanced dragons kinda use the same formula of +2str and con per age category and +2int wis cha per 2 age categories, their natural armor increases by +1 per hd, their breath weapon typically increases by 2 dices per age category (although there are exceptions) , an age category every 3hd and they gain 2cl per age category , in the monster manual there are descrepencies because a dragon at times gets +4 str when he advances an age, basically the rules of advanced dragons show us how they developed dragons in the first place so my point about stat size bonuses still stands , for example if a black dragon going from tiny to gragantuan should get +32str and+16con that would put his str and con at 43 and 29 respectively which a greatwyrm black dragon doesnt have

[koumpou69]

In short: size stats adjustments are an abstraction that is supposed to represent a creature doubling in size. Dragons do get physical stats adjustment, but theirs is much smoother, as they are supposed to slowly increase in size at each age category until they go above the threshold to be considered of the larger size category. The youngest Medium black dragon is Young, the youngest Large is Young Adult, the youngest Huge is Mature Adult, having respectively 15, 19 and 27 Str. It doesn't follow exactly the regular stat adjustment (notably, gaining only 4 instead of 8 Str when going from Medium to Large, as you said for balancing reasons), but is overall similar, and dragons gain much more than physical stats when going up a size category, notably much better natural armor than the size adjustment table mandates, so it kind of balances out in the end.

Alternatively, you can consider each dragon age category as its own monster, and that dragons advance by changing into another creature, so they don't follow the regular ability advancement. That's very common for creatures with several sizes, like elementals (even Earth doesn't advance as quickly as the size advancement table would mandate), or the four elemental Outsiders (notably the Small to Medium versions of Tojanidas, Salamanders, Xorns and Arrowhawks only gain +2 Str).

in draconomicon we get the advanced dragons entry that describes how to advance dragons past great wyrm, if you backtrace it you will see that this is the formula they mostly used to create dragons in the first place for example +2str and con per age +2int wis cha per 2 ages +2dices on the breathweapon(there white and brass dragons are exceptions and get 1 per age) per age +1 natural armor per hd +2caster level per age , the stats are not exactly the same but you can still notice that the pattern exists, as i said before i can understand why those bonuses arent added for balance reasons but at the same time mechanically it seems that they should especially considering that the older dragons have a cr of over 20 and they dont use stat boosting items

[Saintheart]

for example if a black dragon going from tiny to gragantuan should get +32str and+16con that would put his str and con at 43 and 29 respectively which a greatwyrm black dragon doesnt have

Are you saying the Greatwyrm Black Dragon's STR 37 and CON 27 would be meaningfully improved at CR 20 by +3 in attack bonus and damage, and its hitpoints, relevant skills, and saving throws meaningfully improved by +2 to its CON score?

I don't really see the significance, personally. Just because the rules for improving monsters suggest a certain pattern in what the designers were thinking doesn't dictate that the monsters as published and written must follow that pattern. Level editors don't have to precisely follow the rules of the finished videogame, as an analogy. I'd be more inclined to think the designers made tweaks to the progression to meet quirks or issues they saw when running the numbers creating the system.

[koumpou69]

Are you saying the Greatwyrm Black Dragon's STR 37 and CON 27 would be meaningfully improved at CR 20 by +3 in attack bonus and damage, and its hitpoints, relevant skills, and saving throws meaningfully improved by +2 to its CON score?

I don't really see the significance, personally. Just because the rules for improving monsters suggest a certain pattern in what the designers were thinking doesn't dictate that the monsters as published and written must follow that pattern. Level editors don't have to precisely follow the rules of the finished videogame, as an analogy. I'd be more inclined to think the designers made tweaks to the progression to meet quirks or issues they saw when running the numbers creating the system.

no, i am saying to add that on top of it for 69str and 43con

[Beni-Kujaku]

no, i am saying to add that on top of it for 69str and 43con

Ok, full stop. As we are saying, the size stats adjustment are supposed to be *part of the current advancement by age category*. Adding one on top of the other makes no sense. If I understand you well (and I would probably understand you better if you used capital letters at the beginnning of sentences and periods at the end, but that's besides the point), you would like to have dragons gain a few stats at each age category, and then a big boost each time they increase in size. This is... Absolutely not what dragons are designed for. They are the poster-monster for the game, and are designed like this to allow players to fight them at any level. That's literally the point of having so many age categories instead of the 5 from 5e or the single one from 1st and 2nd edition. Having such jumps in power would absolutely go against this, as you could find a level at which a dragon is too weak, but the next age category is much too strong, because it has +8 or more Strength more than the previous one, on top of better natural armor, better sorcerer casting, etc...

[loky1109]

no, i am saying to add that on top of it for 69str and 43con

Black wyrmling and Black great wyrm are different monsters with separate advancements and independent stat bonuses. And RAW first can't become second.

[koumpou69]

Black wyrmling and Black great wyrm are different monsters with separate advancements and independent stat bonuses. And RAW first can't become second.

a black wyrmling becomes a great wyrm by aging what are you on about?

[koumpou69]

Ok, full stop. As we are saying, the size stats adjustment are supposed to be *part of the current advancement by age category*. Adding one on top of the other makes no sense. If I understand you well (and I would probably understand you better if you used capital letters at the beginnning of sentences and periods at the end, but that's besides the point), you would like to have dragons gain a few stats at each age category, and then a big boost each time they increase in size. This is... Absolutely not what dragons are designed for. They are the poster-monster for the game, and are designed like this to allow players to fight them at any level. That's literally the point of having so many age categories instead of the 5 from 5e or the single one from 1st and 2nd edition. Having such jumps in power would absolutely go against this, as you could find a level at which a dragon is too weak, but the next age category is much too strong, because it has +8 or more Strength more than the previous one, on top of better natural armor, better sorcerer casting, etc...

except they arent part of the advancement, they get completely ignored, dragon advance on a very straightforward way they gain +2str and con per age and +2int wis cha per 2 ages and completely ignore size bonuses

[Saintheart]

except they arent part of the advancement, they get completely ignored, dragon advance on a very straightforward way they gain +2str and con per age and +2int wis cha per 2 ages and completely ignore size bonuses

And the question I have, in effect, remains: so what, in terms of balance? I don't see much of an argument for - even if it were true, which is not extant - why a dragon's ability scores should be raised in that manner without having to massively reconfigure their CR.

By your argument a Greatwyrm Black Dragon should have STR 69 and CON 43, at CR 22. At the most basic, that would put its STR bonus at +34, i.e. an attack bonus of +71. Its hitpoint total at 37d12+21, i.e. 1017 hitpoints or so.

A Greatwyrm is a CR 22 creature. By WOTC's definitions, it's meant to be a middle-of-the-road challenge for a level 22 party of 4. A benchmark on that score is the Green Dragon Wyrm at CR 22, which has an attack bonus of +44 and 507 hitpoints, i.e. barely half the durability and smacking potential of the Greatwyrm Black Dragon on your proposal.

Or if we go outside dragons because your argument presumably is "but every dragon's stat bonuses are wrong," -- the Anaxim Abomination is CR 22 and has 430 hitpoints and a +43 attack bonus. Your notional Greatwyrm Black Dragon has about 2.5 times as many hitpoints and nearly double its attack bonus but they're both meant to be CR 22?

Sorry, but I think you need a really good argument other than 'should' on this one...

EDIT: And while you're thinking about that, you do realise that even the dragon's breath weapon has its save DC based on CON, right? On this, you'd basically be doubling that DC. And even if that somehow works out at Greatwyrm size, there's then the problem of how you rebalance all the black dragons back down the age category tree, since they're all getting STR and CON boosts way outside what their CR is intended for...

[loky1109]

a black wyrmling becomes a great wyrm by aging what are you on about?

Maybe. But anyway Young adult black dragon isn't Large black wyrmling.