Knowledge Devotion and non-attacks

[eBarbarossa]

With non-attacks I mean things that deal damage but don't require an attack roll, like breath weapons or various spells.
Does Knowledge Devotion buff the damage of these things? What's with spells that deal attribute damage instead of hit points?

[Saintheart]

Bad news: if it doesn't have an attack roll, then narrow RAW would suggest Knowledge Devotion can't apply. K.Dev applies its insight bonus to "attack rolls and damage rolls" against the creature type. No attack roll, no bonus ... to the attack roll.

But good news: by the same RAW, it boosts the hell out of attacks that do ability damage, since this would seem to fall within the description of "damage rolls". So now you're not doing 1d8 CON damage with the good old poison applicator, you're doing 1d8+5, i.e. a guaranteed minimum ability damage figure above the average roll of a 1d8 dice. Breath weapon, similar, at least by RAW - it's a "damage roll". Damage rolls don't necessarily need attack rolls, so even if it doesn't require an attack roll, if it needs a damage roll, it would seem to apply.

The likely RAI was weapon attack and damage rolls, but who cares about RAI.

[Kurald Galain]

With non-attacks I mean things that deal damage but don't require an attack roll, like breath weapons or various spells.
Does Knowledge Devotion buff the damage of these things?
I would argue that it does, since you're rolling for damage and KD gives a bonus to damage rolls. That said, if one effect (like magic missile) gets multiple damage rolls, then I'd give you the bonus only to the first (similar to sneak attack or warmage edge).


What's with spells that deal attribute damage instead of hit points?
"Attribute damage" is not literally damage. For instance, if an attack deals 1 strength damage and you use a rogue's sneak attack, it does not become 1d6+1 strength damage.

As far as I can tell, none of the above is exactly spelled out in the rules, but it's how I would interpret it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

"Attribute damage" is not literally damage. For instance, if an attack deals 1 strength damage and you use a rogue's sneak attack, it does not become 1d6+1 strength damage.

As far as I can tell, none of the above is exactly spelled out in the rules, but it's how I would interpret it.

Actually, it is. Sneak Attack has a special rule that prevents it from working like that (the bonus damage becomes negative energy HP damage), but it would otherwise increase even ability damage. Other sources of bonus to damage rolls that lack this wording can increase ability damage.

[Mordante]

I would argue that it does, since you're rolling for damage and KD gives a bonus to damage rolls. That said, if one effect (like magic missile) gets multiple damage rolls, then I'd give you the bonus only to the first (similar to sneak attack or warmage edge).


"Attribute damage" is not literally damage. For instance, if an attack deals 1 strength damage and you use a rogue's sneak attack, it does not become 1d6+1 strength damage.

As far as I can tell, none of the above is exactly spelled out in the rules, but it's how I would interpret it.

I agree with you on this.

Don't forget that the skill trick "Collector of Stories" works for Knowledge Devotion.

[Kurald Galain]

Other sources of bonus to damage rolls that lack this wording can increase ability damage.
That's not an explicit rule, though.

I understand the reasoning (option A spells out exception X, option B is silent on X so therefore it must have the opposite of X); but actual RAW is that since option B is silent on X, the DM gets to decide. And it's not unreasonable for him to rule that option B also gets exception X.

[pabelfly]

I'd argue that Knowledge Devotion can apply to things with damage rolls but not attack rolls, like spells, spell-like abilities, etc. I've used it several times with Truenamer utterances which don't have attack rolls but do have damage rolls.

[Troacctid]

So, yeah, yes, it applies to damage rolls even if there is no attack roll. That's pretty unambiguous. I don't think you'll have any problems with that.

Here's the glossary entry for damage:

damage: A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage. In addition, wherever it is relevant, the type of damage an attack deals is specified, since natural abilities, magic items, or spell effects may grant immunity to certain types of damage. Damage types include weapon damage (subdivided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) and energy damage (positive, negative, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). Modifiers to melee damage rolls apply to both subcategories of weapon damage (melee and unarmed). Some modifiers apply to both weapon and spell damage, but only if so stated. Damage points are deducted from whatever character attribute has been harmed -- lethal and nonlethal damage from current hit points, and ability damage from the relevant ability score). Damage heals naturally over time, but can also be negated wholly or partially by curative magic.
Based on this, it should also apply to ability damage, since that is a type of damage as well.

[Anthrowhale]

Based on this, it should also apply to ability damage, since that is a type of damage as well.

This bring up a question: what happens with knowledge devotion when an attack delivers two kinds of damage, like strength and hp damage? Attacker's choice?

[Saintheart]

This bring up a question: what happens with knowledge devotion when an attack delivers two kinds of damage, like strength and hp damage? Attacker's choice?

Why not both, if they both require a roll?

[Kurald Galain]

This bring up a question: what happens with knowledge devotion when an attack delivers two kinds of damage, like strength and hp damage? Attacker's choice?

If you rule that it can add to ability damage (which, as mentioned above, I would not) then in your example it would add to both.

[Anthrowhale]

If you rule that it can add to ability damage ... then in your example it would add to both.

Yeah, I agree.

In terms of multi-attack ability damage Lahm's Finger Darts looks scary: 5x 1d4+5 Dexterity damage.

Presumably, there is also something doable with Duskblade's full attack channelling and lesser shivering touch.

Even Chill Touch shifting from 1d6 x level to 1d6+5 x level hp damage is fairly potent.

[St Fan]

I'm not contesting your analysis; from a RAW standpoint, you guys are very correct.

The discussion, however, remind me how much the game would need way clearer rules about damage, and specifically precision damage.

I do consider the bonuses granted by Knowledge Devotion to be precision damage, since they take advantage of a keen awareness of a creature's biology, anatomy and weak spots.

You probably wouldn't know about it, but the Wake (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/Sillage) comic contains a scene that would perfectly illustrate the feat: the heroine is fighting against multiple alien mercenaries of different species, and use her extensive knowledge of pressure points to disable each one of them, based on their anatomy. She meets a stumbling block just once because of sexual dimorphism. ("Male XXX... wait, that didn't work? Burly female, maybe? Ah yes, that's it...")

That would make it easier to apply existing rules, the same as sneak attack and/or favored enemies, to Knowledge Devotion. Meaning it would work with anything requiring an attack roll (including weaponlike spells), that you need to identify and see clearly the target, etc. Targeted spells or area of effect attacks can't benefit of these bonuses since they don't target precise spots.

Note that, those weaponlike spells rules do allows increasing ability damage, as specified on the Rules Compendium.

Too bad the feat's description doesn't make this clear, leaving the wording ambiguous and thus open to interpretation.

[Darg]

Note that, those weaponlike spells rules do allows increasing ability damage, as specified on the Rules Compendium.


Point Blank Shot: You get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls with ranged spells that deal hit point damage at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Spells that deal only ability damage, bestow penalties on ability scores, or deal energy drain gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls but no bonus on damage.

The rules go out of their way to attempt to not give bonus damage to effects that aren't hit point damage. Even though there isn't anything in the rules that out right prevent it, the spirit is still there.


Yeah, I agree.

In terms of multi-attack ability damage Lahm's Finger Darts looks scary: 5x 1d4+5 Dexterity damage.

Presumably, there is also something doable with Duskblade's full attack channelling and lesser shivering touch.

Even Chill Touch shifting from 1d6 x level to 1d6+5 x level hp damage is fairly potent.

In CArc and the RC, bonus damage only applies to the first attack or just once per cast. So even if bonus damage applied to the finger darts, it would only work on one dart per cast.

[St Fan]

The rules go out of their way to attempt to not give bonus damage to effects that aren't hit point damage. Even though there isn't anything in the rules that out right prevent it, the spirit is still there.

That's only part of the rules (p. 132). The weaponlike spells are further described on p. 136.



Extra damage from a critical hit is of the same type the spell deals normally. A critical hit with a spell doubles all forms of damage that spell deals. An energy-draining spell bestows twice that spell’s normal negative levels on a critical hit, while a critical hit with a spell that deals ability damage doubles that ability damage.
[...]
A successful precision damage attack with a weaponlike spell deals extra damage of the same type as the spell normally deals unless that spell deals ability damage or ability drain, or it bestows negative levels. Spells that fall into these categories instead deal extra hit point damage in the form of negative energy.


So yes, it seems I misremembered the rule a little. Only critical hits can increase ability damage. Precision damage instead become negative energy hit point damage in addition to the ability damage/drain.

The one problem I consider is that, beyond sneak attack, what is or isn't "precision damage" isn't entirely clear. The RC mention favored enemy damage, implying it falls into this category. Again, treating Knowledge Devotion as giving precision damage simplify things considerably when applied to spells, since you then can just apply the already-existing weaponlike spells rules.

[Troacctid]

The one problem I consider is that, beyond sneak attack, what is or isn't "precision damage" isn't entirely clear. The RC mention favored enemy damage, implying it falls into this category. Again, treating Knowledge Devotion as giving precision damage simplify things considerably when applied to spells, since you then can just apply the already-existing weaponlike spells rules.
But it is explicitly not precision damage. The example in the feat itself shows it giving a damage bonus against a vampire, even though vampires are immune to precision damage. (Favored enemy isn't precision damage either, although it used to be back in the 3.0 days.)

Also, the existing weaponlike spell rules already cover non-precision damage bonuses. So you don't actually get any new rules clarity. All you get are nerfs. And, like, huge nerfs, too.

[St Fan]

But it is explicitly not precision damage. The example in the feat itself shows it giving a damage bonus against a vampire, even though vampires are immune to precision damage. (Favored enemy isn't precision damage either, although it used to be back in the 3.0 days.)

Also, the existing weaponlike spell rules already cover non-precision damage bonuses. So you don't actually get any new rules clarity. All you get are nerfs. And, like, huge nerfs, too.

Yeah, correct, I realized afterward that "precision damage" is clearly defined on the Rules Compendium, and it's restricted to attacks that don't affect creatures immune to critical hits.

Well, favored enemy and Knowledge Devotion have similarities to precision damage, and should mostly work the same way as far as weaponlike spells are concerned, even though they aren't exactly the same (p. 136 specify you can add the favored enemy bonus). At least for simplicity's sake. I dunno if their category would need another name.

On an unrelated side note, I spotted something that has been bothering me:



An attacker can deal precision damage with any weapon he can wield, but he must wield that weapon in the optimal way. If an attacker takes the –4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon, for example, no precision damage is possible.


This would clearly imply that you can't make sneak attacks with a weapon you're not proficient with. Nice to have an actual rule.
(Wonder if it would also cover an off-hand weapon attack without Two-Weapon Fighting; the penalty is largely as big...)

[Crake]

That's not an explicit rule, though.

I understand the reasoning (option A spells out exception X, option B is silent on X so therefore it must have the opposite of X); but actual RAW is that since option B is silent on X, the DM gets to decide. And it's not unreasonable for him to rule that option B also gets exception X.

Thats not how the logic works. If option b is silent on X, we dont assume it works the opposite of X, we assume it works as normal, without the interference of X. Not the same thing. X is, by definition here, the exception, not the rule, and thus you assume anything that doesnt include mention of the exception is not affected by it.

[Kurald Galain]

If option b is silent on X, we dont assume it works the opposite of X, we assume it works as normal, without the interference of X. Not the same thing. X is, by definition here, the exception, not the rule, and thus you assume anything that doesnt include mention of the exception is not affected by it.
This is indeed an example of treating anything not mentioning X as requiring the exact opposite of X, and as you yourself point out, that's not how logic works.