why wield oversized weapon is better than you expected

[koumpou69]

thats right folks this mostly useless epic feat is actually better than most of us thought and i am going to explain why, for example with wield oversized weapon we can have a lets say fighter that wields one large scythe and treats it as a medium two handed weapon, according to the epic feat "You can treat any weapon as if it were one size category smaller than normal and one category "lighter" for the purpose of determining the amount of effort it takes to wield" that means that the same fighter treats a medium twohanded scythe as a "small" one handed weapon so with tho weapon fighting he can have wield and fight with two medium scythes and with oversized two weapon figting only get -2 on his attack rolls isntead of -4, ok now you must be wandering why is that important? it is VERY important because of power attack, you see power attack states "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a onehanded weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" you may treat the scythe as a one handed weapon for purposes of wielding it but it is in fact a two handed weapon so you should get double the power attack bonus even if you wield it in one hand and that is a HUGE difference making this feat way more powerfull than you think

[Darg]

You can read it that way. And it's only a terrible feat when you compare it to shocktrooper and/or leap attack. It's a feat that at minimum lets you power attack with an off-hand weapon without taking the extra -2 penalty for wielding a not light weapon (one of the dumbest rules for power attack). So to combine it together, you can wield 2 two-hand weapons in 1h each or 1 2h and 1 1h for 0 penalty.

One other way to read the feat (even though the example doesn't show this) is that you can wield a larger weapon as one size smaller and one category lighter for wielding. So a medium human could wield a large greatsword in one hand as a medium one-handed greatsword.

[koumpou69]

You can read it that way. And it's only a terrible feat when you compare it to shocktrooper and/or leap attack. It's a feat that at minimum lets you power attack with an off-hand weapon without taking the extra -2 penalty for wielding a not light weapon (one of the dumbest rules for power attack). So to combine it together, you can wield 2 two-hand weapons in 1h each or 1 2h and 1 1h for 0 penalty.

One other way to read the feat (even though the example doesn't show this) is that you can wield a larger weapon as one size smaller and one category lighter for wielding. So a medium human could wield a large greatsword in one hand as a medium one-handed greatsword.

the second is the way i take it in my campaign but if you read the example it doesnt work like that or the example the feat gives could be wrong although we cant prove such a thing

[Darg]

the second is the way i take it in my campaign but if you read the example it doesnt work like that or the example the feat gives could be wrong although we cant prove such a thing

As an epic feat with a crappy feat prerequisite deserves the most liberal nonbroken understanding. We currently run power attack with the special text removed like it was before the 3.5 update so the first part doesn't matter to us, but the second part is very good. They overexplained the feat so far they made it better than the examples show it to be.

[bean illus]

As an epic feat with a crappy feat prerequisite deserves the most liberal nonbroken understanding. We currently run power attack with the special text removed like it was before the 3.5 update so the first part doesn't matter to us, but the second part is very good. They overexplained the feat so far they made it better than the examples show it to be.

Half-ogre PsyWar with expansion, monkey grip, wield oversized weapon, great bow, and a -2 oversized weapon penalty does 6d8?

[Darg]

Half-ogre PsyWar with expansion, monkey grip, wield oversized weapon, great bow, and a -2 oversized weapon penalty does 6d8?

greatbow is a 2h M sized weapon. Expansion is +2 and oversized weapon is +1. This does 4d8. Half-giant let's you use a weapon one size larger without penalty, so oversize it a second time for +1 and 6d8 damage. You can swap out the half-giant with strongarm bracers or combine it for technically 8d8 damage if your DM allows you to use the natural weapon size table. Also, no oversized penalty with this combination.

[bean illus]

greatbow is a 2h M sized weapon. Expansion is +2 and oversized weapon is +1. This does 4d8. Half-giant let's you use a weapon one size larger without penalty, so oversize it a second time for +1 and 6d8 damage. You can swap out the half-giant with strongarm bracers or combine it for technically 8d8 damage if your DM allows you to use the natural weapon size table. Also, no oversized penalty with this combination.

How to get BAB 21?

[Maat Mons]

So you’re basically reading it as giving you something akin to the capstone of Revenant Blade. I guess getting a 10th-level class feature equivalent at 21st level is better than most Epic feats.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh man, I thought this feat was just a lackluster melee damage boost, but now I see clear as day: it's actually scratching and clawing its way up to mediocre!

1) PA builds and TWF builds don't tend to overlap much, primarily because both kinda tend to be feat-intensive if you really wanna do em well. Even if this feat theoretically allows them to overlap, that basically requires you to make a melee build that can't decide between PA and TWF for the first 20 or more levels.

2) By the time you hit epic levels, whether you're doing TWF or PA build, you're likely dealing enough damage to play rocket tag already. The difference between 10k DPR and 20k DPR is irrelevant when you don't face anything with more than 5000 HP. There's pre-epic builds that can pull off 4-digit DPR without too much cheese. There's pre-epic builds that can get exponentially-scaling damage. There's pre-epic builds that can get NI attacks. There's pre-epic builds that can get NI damage per attack. Getting good melee damage isn't hard. If your melee damage is insufficient, it's less likely that one good damage feat will really make the difference, and more likely that this is a problem that melee damage can't solve. It'd be the epic equivalent of trying to kill a ghost with a nonmagic weapon: your damage bonus isn't the problem mate.

[Crake]

The way I read power attack, its more about how many hands you’re using rather than the weapon itself (as long as its not a light weapon), in fact i believe theres multi-arm rules that give you an extra 0.5x modifier on power attack for each extra arm you use. The wording on power attack is clearly assuming that a 2h weapon would require two hands to use, since thats the default stance, and using less hands is the exception, not the rule.

[Maat Mons]

If memory serves, the +0.5x per extra hand only applies to damage from Strength, not Power Attack. But I haven't read Savage Species in a while, so I could be wrong.

[Darg]

2) By the time you hit epic levels, whether you're doing TWF or PA build, you're likely dealing enough damage to play rocket tag already. The difference between 10k DPR and 20k DPR is irrelevant when you don't face anything with more than 5000 HP. There's pre-epic builds that can pull off 4-digit DPR without too much cheese. There's pre-epic builds that can get exponentially-scaling damage. There's pre-epic builds that can get NI attacks. There's pre-epic builds that can get NI damage per attack. Getting good melee damage isn't hard. If your melee damage is insufficient, it's less likely that one good damage feat will really make the difference, and more likely that this is a problem that melee damage can't solve. It'd be the epic equivalent of trying to kill a ghost with a nonmagic weapon: your damage bonus isn't the problem mate.

Well, it is a roleplaying game. Not everyone prefers to play at the top of the optimization leaderboards.

[Elves]

if you are treating it as a one-handed weapon you don't get two-handed returns with it

[bean illus]

2) By the time you hit epic levels, whether you're doing TWF or PA build, you're likely dealing enough damage to play rocket tag already. The difference between 10k DPR and 20k DPR is irrelevant when you don't face anything with more than 5000 HP. There's pre-epic builds that can pull off 4-digit DPR without too much cheese.

While agreeing with what you said, I'll admit that i don't know how to get 10,000 DPR on an archer (good thing, huh?).

I do think that with the half-giant, expansion, wield oversized weapon, and kaorti arrows, i could get 1,500+ DPR.

Though I'm not sure how to get BAB 21.

[AvatarVecna]

While agreeing with what you said, I'll admit that i don't know how to get 10,000 DPR on an archer (good thing, huh?).

I do think that with the half-giant, expansion, wield oversized weapon, and kaorti arrows, i could get 1,500+ DPR.

Though I'm not sure how to get BAB 21.

I was talking about melee not ranged. Also, not sure where I said BAB 21. Divine Power can do that though.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, it is a roleplaying game. Not everyone prefers to play at the top of the optimization leaderboards.

Someone playing the game that way is just getting a weapon size upgrade from this feat though, not dual wielding 2Hweapons and convincing the DM they should get full 2H PA tradeoffs.

Edit: Like, 2d6 to 3d6 is what they're looking at, and that's +3.5 damage. Worse than epic weapon specialization.

[Gnaeus]

Someone playing the game that way is just getting a weapon size upgrade from this feat though, not dual wielding 2Hweapons and convincing the DM they should get full 2H PA tradeoffs.

Edit: Like, 2d6 to 3d6 is what they're looking at, and that's +3.5 damage. Worse than epic weapon specialization.

I do think there is some grey area in the optimization space between 3d6 (x4 I guess?) and 1500.

[Beni-Kujaku]

While agreeing with what you said, I'll admit that i don't know how to get 10,000 DPR on an archer (good thing, huh?).

I do think that with the half-giant, expansion, wield oversized weapon, and kaorti arrows, i could get 1,500+ DPR.

Though I'm not sure how to get BAB 21.

The Epic Level Handbook states that Epic Attack Bonus stacks with BAB for the purpose of prerequisites. A fighter 22 has effectively BAB 21.

[bean illus]

I was talking about melee not ranged. Also, not sure where I said BAB 21. Divine Power can do that though.

Nice. Since every build has Divine Power, that should be easy. Perfect.



Edit: Like, 2d6 to 3d6 is what they're looking at, and that's +3.5 damage. Worse than epic weapon specialization.

Unless they're already huge or larger. Then it could be 2d8=9


The Epic Level Handbook states that Epic Attack Bonus stacks with BAB for the purpose of prerequisites. A fighter 22 has effectively BAB 21.

That's what i expected to hear.

Thanks

[Daisy]

Power attack states "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a onehanded weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" you may treat the scythe as a one handed weapon for purposes of wielding it but it is in fact a two handed weapon so you should get double the power attack bonus even if you wield it in one hand

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm sure the power attack feat is intended to allow the x2 damage only if the weapon is wielded with both hands (I'm fairly sure the line about double for two-handed weapons assumes you are wielding the weapon with two hands). Sure, a RAW reading may match what you say above, but IMHO no DM worth their salt would permit it. Would any of you DMs agree? Or would you allow such a RAW reading at your table?

Personally, if one of my players tried to apply such cheese I'd simply point out that by using the weapon in one hand it is now a one-handed weapon for them, even if it's a two-handed weapon for another person. Which technically is true for almost any weapon - a tiny creature wielding a medium dagger has to do so as a two-handed weapon, and a human wielding a small greatsword can use it one-handed. That doesn't mean the human can get x2 power attack damage when using the tiny greatsword one-handed.

Edit: swordsaged!

[Darg]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm sure the power attack feat is intended to allow the x2 damage only if the weapon is wielded with both hands (I'm fairly sure the line about double for two-handed weapons assumes you are wielding the weapon with two hands). Sure, a RAW reading may match what you say above, but IMHO no DM worth their salt would permit it. Would any of you DMs agree? Or would you allow such a RAW reading at your table?

Personally, if one of my players tried to apply such cheese I'd simply point out that by using the weapon in one hand it is now a one-handed weapon for them, even if it's a two-handed weapon for another person. Which technically is true for almost any weapon - a tiny creature wielding a medium dagger has to do so as a two-handed weapon, and a human wielding a small greatsword can use it one-handed. That doesn't mean the human can get x2 power attack damage when using the tiny greatsword one-handed.

Edit: swordsaged!

It's honestly the only source of this kind of interaction in the official game. As an epic feat I don't see any problems with it working like this. You give up so much to even get it, the minor benefits you get with the thematic element aren't really worth ruling against.