Unexpected usage of class features, feats, spells, etc.

[St Fan]

I am interested in examples of outside-the-box usages of standard class features, feats, spells, etc.

That is, tricks that are entirely within the rules, and not necessarily game-breaking at all (in fact, I'd rather not see example of these since they are certain to be vetoed by the DM), but that are clearly original and beyond what they obviously were conceived for in the first place.

I can give an example of such with a character concept of mine, a Wizard with one level of Spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat. This allows spellthieving with level scaling, useful for a job of capturing criminal/renegade spellcasters.

I realized there was another possible use, however: While casting Wizard spells require a minimum Intelligence score, stealing spells doesn't; the stolen spells can be cast even without the minimum ability score. So, if my character gets hit by crippling Intelligence damage/drain, she can still steal spells from herself before casting them. It takes a bit longer than normal spellcasting (1 round for the spell-stealing before the actual casting) but in desperate situations, it's way better than a magic-less wizard. (Of course, she'd take the precaution of carefully explaining the concept to her party members, so that they can instruct her even if the Intelligence loss is bad enough to make her forget about the tactic.)

So, what kind of similar weird tactics have you come up with yourselves?

[Doctor Despair]

Here's two freebies that shouldn't be too overpowered.

Use Quori Dread with Imperious Command to intimidate to cowering as a move action at a range of 120 feet.

Wildshape into a mimic. Use Bloodstorm Blade (throw anything/lightning ricochet) or a necklace of natural attacks to throw your slam attacks to automatically initiate a grapple from range, then leap to their square as movement that doesn't count against your movement for the round.

[St Fan]

Use Bloodstorm Blade (throw anything/lightning ricochet) or a necklace of natural attacks to throw your slam attacks to automatically initiate a grapple from range, then leap to their square as movement that doesn't count against your movement for the round.

I don't see how that work, nor how remotely it can be considered as "acceptable within the rules".

[Biggus]

I don't see how that work, nor how remotely it can be considered as "acceptable within the rules".

It's a dubiously-RAW interpretation of "Throw Anything". Depending where you look in the rules, natural weapons may or may not count as melee weapons (discussion here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?534522-D-amp-D-3-5-Are-Natural-Weapons-considered-Melee-Weapons)). If they do, and you interpret Throw Anything in a hyper-literal fashion, that means you can use it to throw natural weapons. And if you can attack with them at range, you can also start a grapple with them at range.

No DM in their right mind would allow it in an actual game, obviously, but it's arguably allowable by RAW.

[Anthrowhale]

Steal Spells allows you to function as a universal buff target for all spellcasters in the party. Combining with Spelldancer would allow you to persist those spells. If every other spellcaster uses assume supernatural ability[share spells] and is polymorphed into a symbiote attached to the spellthief they all benefit from the persistent spells as well. If other party members take levels of Heartfire Fanner, the Spellthief need not even invest in metamagic.

[Doctor Despair]

It's a dubiously-RAW interpretation of "Throw Anything". Depending where you look in the rules, natural weapons may or may not count as melee weapons (discussion here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?534522-D-amp-D-3-5-Are-Natural-Weapons-considered-Melee-Weapons)). If they do, and you interpret Throw Anything in a hyper-literal fashion, that means you can use it to throw natural weapons. And if you can attack with them at range, you can also start a grapple with them at range.

No DM in their right mind would allow it in an actual game, obviously, but it's arguably allowable by RAW.

Throwing/ returning are explicitly applicable to natural weapons via the necklace of natural attacks, so honestly it's arguably RAI, too

[pabelfly]

Assorted tricks and shenanigans I've used for various low-level Truenamer builds (not a comprehensive list):

Reversed Inertia Surge + Extend Utterance + Mortalbane - use a standard action to stop an enemy from not moving for two rounds, no saves allowed, plus 4d6 damage. Best on a melee enemy, especially a strong enemy or one in a difficult position.

Knowledge Devotion + Hidden Truth + Universal Aptitude - +15 to Knowledge Devotion checks (can't always do this before combat, such as if the party was ambushed, but was great when I could).

Hidden Truth + Universal Aptitude + BoVD Sacrifice rules. With this plus your INT, your Knowledge: Religion skill, and Knowledge Focus (Religion), you should easily hit 25 or 30 and get some great bonuses for your sacrifice check even at very low level.

Reversed Universal Aptitude - I'd use this on allies just for a laugh when they were doing skill checks. This was okay with everyone when I was doing it, to be clear.

Any utterance + Mortalbane - 2d6 damage on an enemy each round. Worked well with crippling and weakening utterances.

[Darg]

Throwing/ returning are explicitly applicable to natural weapons via the necklace of natural attacks, so honestly it's arguably RAI, too

Yes, throwing/returning work with natural weapons. What is most dubious is you being able to maintain a grapple at range. For it to work, it relies on the lack of explicit mention of the necessity of maintaining your grasp upon the target. This means that for your exploitation to work, a character that teleports would stay grappled too.

~~~~~~~~

Anyways, bloodstorm blade's thunderous throw + warmind's sweeping strike + any form of Whirlwind attack = obliterate 2 adjacent targets with a number of attacks equal to targets within range at full BAB.

[Doctor Despair]

Yes, throwing/returning work with natural weapons. What is most dubious is you being able to maintain a grapple at range. For it to work, it relies on the lack of explicit mention of the necessity of maintaining your grasp upon the target. This means that for your exploitation to work, a character that teleports would stay grappled too.

It does not rely on a lack of necessity to maintain your grasp.


Step 1
Attack of Opportunity...

Step 2
Grab...

Step 3
Hold...

Mimics skip these three steps and go straight to step 4.


Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

You maintain your grasp by moving into their square. If you cannot maintain your grasp, you can't grapple them.

[Darg]

It does not rely on a lack of necessity to maintain your grasp.



Mimics skip these three steps and go straight to step 4.



You maintain your grasp by moving into their square. If you cannot maintain your grasp, you can't grapple them.

So you're saying that the Ranged Pin feat would allow you free movement because it allows you to grapple the opponent? It has nothing to do with the capability of moving into the space?

Mechanical vs logical. On that same note, mechanically when you throw your natural weapon you lose access to that weapon. Mechanically there is no way to reattach the thrown weapon. This means your appendage (the weapon for slam) is permanently severed. This means you can't use that appendage to grapple with because it is no longer part of your body.

[Rebel7284]

There is of course the classic Martial Spirit stance that gives Crusaders infinite out of combat healing at level 1 when they challenge their friends to non-lethal sparring.

[Doctor Despair]

So you're saying that the Ranged Pin feat would allow you free movement because it allows you to grapple the opponent? It has nothing to do with the capability of moving into the space?

Ranged Pin is very poorly written and isn't really grappling. I've discussed this in another thread. It uses a ranged grapple thread, but doesn't follow any grappling rules. Additionally, it doesn't even do anything. It doesn't confer the pinned condition despite the name, and it doesn't immobilize someone or prevent movement. It basically requires DM fiat to use at all.



Mechanical vs logical. On that same note, mechanically when you throw your natural weapon you lose access to that weapon. Mechanically there is no way to reattach the thrown weapon. This means your appendage (the weapon for slam) is permanently severed. This means you can't use that appendage to grapple with because it is no longer part of your body.


That's one way to read it. There is a feat that does explicitly that (the "detach" feat from Savage Species). However, there is no text indicating that is the case. It could just as easily be that your appendage/limb with the natural weapon elongates go-go-gadget-arms style to reach the enemy for the "throw." The text only says you can use it as a thrown weapon.

With that said, even if there is no text specifically saying you don't have to tear it off to throw it, the rules for thrown weapons do indicate that it would remain in the enemy's square if you don't have the means to recall it. Returning whiffs if you leave your current square; lightning ricochet, at least, returns it instantly. Without one of those, you can technically throw your unarmed strike (a natural weapon, but not a specific part of the body) and lose the ability to unarmed strike. What does that look like? Ask your DM. As it happens, I do subscribe to the school of thought that it is removed-- but it isn't super relevant in this example.

With regard to specifically a wildshaped mimic-form, though, you're throwing slams. As long as it returns to you after, you don't really care if it reattaches or not. It's not your actual form, so the "loss" is temporary with that reading, lasting until you end your wildshape or use another charge. You throw your slam to enemies as far as ~200 feet away with throwing distance optimization and automatically grapple them. With lightning ricochet, you regain the slam to use again (although it may or may not be attached per DM fiat, you can still throw it).

[Fero]

Dust of Choking and Sneazing (dmg) as a weapon.

Rope Trick in a Rope Trick to travel to the Astral Plane.

Rope Trick as the fulcrum of a pendulum based battering ram (it rope can be as long as 30' and can hold 16,000 lb.

[Doctor Despair]

Oh, on the subject of rope trick: invoke magic, then shadow well, then plane shift to escape a dead magic zone or AMF.

[Darg]

Ranged Pin is very poorly written and isn't really grappling. I've discussed this in another thread. It uses a ranged grapple thread, but doesn't follow any grappling rules. Additionally, it doesn't even do anything. It doesn't confer the pinned condition despite the name, and it doesn't immobilize someone or prevent movement. It basically requires DM fiat to use at all.




That's one way to read it. There is a feat that does explicitly that (the "detach" feat from Savage Species). However, there is no text indicating that is the case. It could just as easily be that your appendage/limb with the natural weapon elongates go-go-gadget-arms style to reach the enemy for the "throw." The text only says you can use it as a thrown weapon.

With that said, even if there is no text specifically saying you don't have to tear it off to throw it, the rules for thrown weapons do indicate that it would remain in the enemy's square if you don't have the means to recall it. Returning whiffs if you leave your current square; lightning ricochet, at least, returns it instantly. Without one of those, you can technically throw your unarmed strike (a natural weapon, but not a specific part of the body) and lose the ability to unarmed strike. What does that look like? Ask your DM. As it happens, I do subscribe to the school of thought that it is removed-- but it isn't super relevant in this example.

With regard to specifically a wildshaped mimic-form, though, you're throwing slams. As long as it returns to you after, you don't really care if it reattaches or not. It's not your actual form, so the "loss" is temporary with that reading, lasting until you end your wildshape or use another charge. You throw your fling yourself to enemies as far as ~200 feet away with throwing distance optimization and automatically grapple them. With lightning ricochet, you regain the slam to use again (although it may or may not be attached per DM fiat, you can still throw it).

You're missing the fact that the adhesive ability automatically grapples and does not require the step for maintaining a grapple as the target isn't automatically freed if you don't move into the space. In essence, it skips the steps for initiating a grapple. You automatically grapple and maintain. You don't get free movement because you don't initiate a grapple. The ability grapples for you. Just like a spell does.

Ranged pin works just fine as written. It's only wonky if you assume it's the player that is grappling the target, not the weapon as the plain text specifies. You can't move into the space and so you aren't grappling the target. The weapon, however, IS in the target's space and therefore requires nothing more to maintain the grapple. It'd be quite funny if the feat gave you the ability to elongate your arm just to move into their square.

At most, I could see the ranged slam grappling working like Ranged Pin by the mimic not being part of the grapple.

[Doctor Despair]

You're missing the fact that the adhesive ability automatically grapples and does not require the step for maintaining a grapple as the target isn't automatically freed if you don't move into the space. In essence, it skips the steps for initiating a grapple. You automatically grapple and maintain. You don't get free movement because you don't initiate a grapple. The ability grapples for you. Just like a spell does.

No, you only skip what it says you can skip. Mimic Adhesive let's you automatically grapple the target. If you succeed on step 3, you are grappling the target.



Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.


Adhesive doesn't say you automatically grapple AND maintain, so you don't. You still need to maintain the grapple. The mimic needs to enter its victim's square.



Ranged pin works just fine as written. It's only wonky if you assume it's the player that is grappling the target, not the weapon as the plain text specifies. You can't move into the space and so you aren't grappling the target. The weapon, however, IS in the target's space and therefore requires nothing more to maintain the grapple. It'd be quite funny if the feat gave you the ability to elongate your arm just to move into their square.

At most, I could see the ranged slam grappling working like Ranged Pin by the mimic not being part of the grapple.

Ranged Pin never says the weapon grapples the target.



You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of it's clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5' of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor or other accoutrement. you must succeed on a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) and then win an opposed grapple check (your size modifier, and the target's size modifiers still apply). To break free, the victum must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape artist check as a standard action.


You make the grapple attempt. It uses your grapple modifiers. Improved Grapple would apply, weirdly enough, as well as any other close-combat grappling buffs. Your flexible limbs from Aberration Blood help you shoot more deftly for some reason...

RAI, they obviously don't want you to maintain -- the fluff is that you pinned their clothing to the wall, so why would they want you to fly through the air to suplex them after your arrow strikes? However, in the absence of you moving to maintain your grapple, it does nothing. They need a check to break free -- or what? Being the victim of a ranged pin mechanically does nothing. The victim can walk, talk, attack, cast spells, etc. RAI, they probably wanted to discuss that you can't move -- but there's no crunch to support it.

So within the RAW, ranged pin can either do nothing (not RAI), let you fly through the air like a mimic thrown slam (definitely not RAI), or immobilize the target somehow (a houserule, like the one you suggested). That's why it's poorly written. It requires a houserule to do what it's supposed to do.

[St Fan]

Oh, on the subject of rope trick: invoke magic, then shadow well, then plane shift to escape a dead magic zone or AMF.

Okay, now THAT's outside-the-box thinking, and an interesting one.

This shadow well spell may be indeed often more interesting to cast on oneself in several other situations, like to "hide" from enemies for 1 round/level or even escape some imminent danger such as an avalanche.

The main limitation of invoke magic is, IMHO, the costly diamond material component, which is unlikely you still have at hand if you're thrown in an anti-magic cell. It's too bad using a Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell ability with it within an AMF is extremely iffy.

Which remind me of another unexpected usage of a class feature: the Geometer's spellglyph.

At first glance, it takes more money to create a spellglyph that replace a costly material component. However, since the "rare, exotic inks and treatments" certainly count as manufactured goods, you can certainly brew them yourself, likely with Craft[alchemy] (and a fabricate spell to speed up things), for 1/3 of the price.

[eBarbarossa]

Does using Splinterbolt to stake multiple vampires at range count?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was level 16 at the time, with a shaper psion/constructor and the astral construct power. We got attacked by a high level shadow dragon that was intent on abducting me in particular, due to story concerns. The party cleric blinded the dragon, but as it still had blindsense, it was still able to function (mostly) normally. I fled outside the range of the dragon's blindsense and started manifesting lots of me-shaped astral constructs using a combination of Linked Power (linked to both standard and swift action powers) and the constructor's enhanced construction ability. By the time the blinded dragon caught up with me, the field was littered with a bunch of psion-shaped creatures, and it had no idea which one to grab. The answer, of course, was none, since I'd buried myself under a bunch of leaves, so it couldn't target me anyway, even with its breath weapon (negative levels, but no damage to burn through the leaf cover, even if it knew where to aim, which it didn't).

Fun fact; you can block non-spread AoE effects using solid materials that cover a full 5' x 5', no matter how flimsy, unless they explicitly have riders that keep going after destroying cover, which is pertinent to my next trick.

During the remainder of that fight, some of my constructs held up cotton bedsheets I'd conjured up via the psionic minor creation power that blocked both the dragon's blindsense and its breath weapon to protect the party outside of their turns. The dragon could knock away the sheets with its claws (but not its breath weapon), but then it would get entangled and couldn't use its breath weapon after that, due to action economy. It would have been able to simply charge through the sheets to get to the party, except it was effectively blind outside of its blindsense and couldn't move around effectively as a result of the layers of sheets in its way.

[edit] We also had a high level spellthief in the group, and I had a tooth of Leraje. Free CL 20 magic weapons for everyone in the whole party!

[Anthrowhale]

An interesting combo we came across in a thread: If you are immune to fire, have fireshield[cold] up, have improved evasion, are hit by a searing spell, and fail a save, then you take -50% damage... which plausibly means fire healing. (There are several other combos which achieve this.)

[Glimbur]

I once turned a tunnel of water invisible so the spellcasters could magic missile an aboleth. Might not be RAW but we were having problems so the DM threw us a bone.