Entertaining ideas for subtle spell?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Once again assuming my level 1 Sorcerer makes it that far I am looking for fun ideas for subtle spell.

Fireball doesn't seem like it because of the visibility of the bright streak.

Shatter just might do it. Having the banquet hall table the bad guys are sitting at explode before combat may be fun.

Also I think it gives True Strike some purpose in life since when a fight is obviously going to break out pre casting True Strike subtly may help if I understand.

Things like subtle spell Dissonant Whispers or Toll the Dead when out of combat seem fun...what else?

[Unoriginal]

Once again assuming my level 1 Sorcerer makes it that far I am looking for fun ideas for subtle spell.

Fireball doesn't seem like it because of the visibility of the bright streak.

Shatter just might do it. Having the banquet hall table the bad guys are sitting at explode before combat may be fun.

Also I think it gives True Strike some purpose in life since when a fight is obviously going to break out pre casting True Strike subtly may help if I understand.

Things like subtle spell Dissonant Whispers or Toll the Dead when out of combat seem fun...what else?

A Sorcerer NPC in my campaign got a lot of mileage out of using Detect Thoughts with Subtle Spell Metamagic. The campaign is nearly over and the PCs still haven't realized the Sorcerer has read their surface thoughts on many occasions, even after he has shown having Subtle Spell.

You could also use it to cheat at games via Prestidigitation or the like.

[RSP]

Any situation in which casting is seen as a negative allows Subtle to shine. A lot of times this comes down to the DM though: if you can cast charm on the guard with no repercussions, it’s less effective.

Subtle Phantasmal Force becomes fantastic to discredit opponents/competitors in social situations as only the target can see the illusions.

[Damon_Tor]

At one point my players were up against a tribe of goblins who were used to fighting adventurers, which means they knew full well to target the spellcasters first. I didn't make this subtle at all: as soon as the sorcerer cast a spell the goblins would shriek "get the maaage!" And start focusing their fire on him.

So the sorcerer used disguise self to make it look like he's wearing plate armor. And in between his turns the barbarian would gesticulate wildly and speak arcane-sounding gibberish while the sorcerer used subtle spell to keep his spellcasting on the DL, so the goblins were under the impression that the barbarian was the spellcaster.

[Segev]

Disguise self to look like you're in heavy armor. Fire a bow or attack with a big sword's ineffectually. (You're doing the stuff that isn't the "attacks that count" as essentially a non-action.) Magic happens seemingly out of nowhere if you use Subtle Spell on things that don't have to originate from you, and the enemy is busy looking for a caster rather than focusing on yet another armored tank.

Subtle Spell can also be used while casting a ritual. So yoy can just be sitting quietly, or even carrying on light conversation (anything that doesn't break Concentration), while casting for ten minutes. Makes keeping comprehend languages up a little easier. Of course, if you're spending a spell point, you may as well spend the spell slot and the six seconds of distraction, so maybe that's not that amazing.

[animorte]

While that “sorcerer looking to be in armor with subtle spell“ thing is hilarious (and I have done similarly myself), the bad guys catch on eventually if the combat lasts long enough. You’re still typically staying at a safe distance.

[Segev]

While that “sorcerer looking to be in armor with subtle spell“ thing is hilarious (and I have done similarly myself), the bad guys catch on eventually if the combat lasts long enough. You’re still typically staying at a safe distance.

Sure. But even two rounds of deception is two rounds you're not the focus of the "geek the mage" squad.

[PallyBass]

Divine souls sorcerer using subtle spell to cast geas on an NPC. Range is 60 ft, only verbal component and a minute casting time. If you wear Goggle's or shades they wouldn't have a clue you were looking at them. Confusion/ Suggestion/ Mass suggestion are fun havoc causers when subtle spelled in a crowded area. Silvery barbs for helping to rigg a skill contest in your favor. And using subtle spell with any spell should negate the opportunity for enemies to Counterspell you

[animorte]

Sure. But even two rounds of deception is two rounds you're not the focus of the "geek the mage" squad.
Oh absolutely. Maybe I’m just more discerning with my sorcery points, but I rarely use them all at one time. Either way, like you said just a round or two can make all the difference. And it often depends the enemy threat level.

[Unoriginal]

If the enemy team has a member who uses recognizable powers (not necessarily spells), especially AoE ones, a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell and a Reaction could make it look like the power-using enemy is targetting their teammates too, which can be useful among less coesive teams.

Ex: You have a boss enemy who regularly throw fire on the group. The mercenaries fighting for said boss enemy may be *very* displeased if the next time the boss does the fire attack, one of them gets burned to death.

[Dualight]

Specific to Divine Soul sorcerers without multiclassing, but healing spells are great when made Subtle. Sure Wounds would let you fake Lay on Hands like a paladin, and healing word would amount to someone's wounds closing because you glanced at them. My personal best application was with prayer of healing, the sorcerer just keeps to themselves for 10 minutes, and suddenly everyone heals. More miraculous than any healing spell cast by a cleric.

[Unoriginal]

Specific to Divine Soul sorcerers without multiclassing, but healing spells are great when made Subtle. Sure Wounds would let you fake Lay on Hands like a paladin, and healing word would amount to someone's wounds closing because you glanced at them. My personal best application was with prayer of healing, the sorcerer just keeps to themselves for 10 minutes, and suddenly everyone heals. More miraculous than any healing spell cast by a cleric.

I don't understand, what makes is it more miraculous than what is already recognizable as a miracle?

Like, even if the Divine Soul Sorcerer didn't use Subtle Spell, their capacity to cast healing spells come from their link to the divine. That's a miracle, and so is a Cleric casting the same spell.

[Corran]

Confusion/ Suggestion/ Mass suggestion are fun havoc causers when subtle spelled in a crowded area.
Enemies abound has some fun potential too.


My personal best application was with prayer of healing, the sorcerer just keeps to themselves for 10 minutes, and suddenly everyone heals. More miraculous than any healing spell cast by a cleric.
Nice. Control weather is the first thing that comes to mind. Absolute waste of a slot but I rate the cool effect. Spells that cause force movement are the ones that are probably better off using the somatic component instead of ignoring it. I definotely find Bigby's hand cooler if the caster is mimicing the Hand's movement with their hand than if they were doing nothing. A bit unsure about telekinesis though. Is pretending to be a maestro cooler than simply moving your glance to have the target crash to walls and the ceiling or not? (semi serious question)



Subtle Spell can also be used while casting a ritual. So yoy can just be sitting quietly, or even carrying on light conversation (anything that doesn't break Concentration), while casting for ten minutes. Makes keeping comprehend languages up a little easier. Of course, if you're spending a spell point, you may as well spend the spell slot and the six seconds of distraction, so maybe that's not that amazing.
Not just rituals. Creation takes 1 minute to cast too. Absolutely a very niche and far from a powerful use, still one of my favourites ue to once finding success with it, use subtle creation on a teaspoon you are using to stir your beverage and secretly turn it into a knife.

[Dualight]

More miraculous than a spell as in "no discernable cause, while spells would be a well-known way of achieving the effects. The cure wounds version isn't all that impressive upon further consideration.

Thinking on it a little bit more, Subtle Spell allows a character to fake having another class. The "have the barbarian pretend to be a mage"example from upthread is one way, but a big part of why spells that mechanically overlap with class features (like cure wounds versus Lay on Hands) are still recognisably distinct to the characters themselves is due to the components that mark all spells as such, which Subtle Spell removes.

[1Pirate]

It’s takes a certain level of class and maturity, but there’s the “Silent But Deadly” combo:

Prestidigitation+Subtle Spell=Making everyone think the BBEG can’t stop farting.

[Pex]

When a person you don't like is making a speech.

Subtle Minor Illusion behind him of passing wind sound.
Subtle Prestidigitation of a foul odor.

[Silpharon]

On the way home from work today I thought of an idea that got me laughing heartily at a stop light. I'm sure I looked strange.

Divine Soul Sorcerer vs Magically Locked Door:
Cast subtle silence as a ritual
Cast subtle knock on the door in the silence bubble

From the outside, this looks like the sorcerer staring intently at a door for 10 minutes and 6 seconds. Then the door just opens without a sound... Imagine the rogue's face! :P

I didn't see this thread first, so I posted about it separately - working on my infiltrator build:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651041-Divine-Soul-Sorcerer-is-an-Infiltrator!

I love subtle and quicken metamagic!

Subtle hex is another easy one. Or any non-threatening concentration spell (e.g. Bless) before a fight without starting initiative.

[JackPhoenix]

Fire a bow or attack with a big sword's ineffectually. (You're doing the stuff that isn't the "attacks that count" as essentially a non-action.)

Yeah, that would get a no from me. If you don't put enough time and effort into your performance (i.e. use the action as appropriate), anyone would be able to tell you aren't even trying to pretend properly. They may not be able to tell you're casting spells (watch out for M components, though), but they'll know something's up, and if everyone fights for their lives and one guy just lazily waves a sword around once in a while and magic happens without any other obvious source, anyone with half a brain is gonna put two and two together.

[Catullus64]

Illusions! One of the big weaknesses of illusion spells is that many of the situations in which they are really useful are also situations where they're undercut by visible casting. Especially valuable if you, say, drop a feat for Eldritch Adept (Misty Visions or Mask of Many Faces). Phantasmal Force is also especially good.

[Segev]

Yeah, that would get a no from me. If you don't put enough time and effort into your performance (i.e. use the action as appropriate), anyone would be able to tell you aren't even trying to pretend properly. They may not be able to tell you're casting spells (watch out for M components, though), but they'll know something's up, and if everyone fights for their lives and one guy just lazily waves a sword around once in a while and magic happens without any other obvious source, anyone with half a brain is gonna put two and two together.

But will they do so during the first round? Or will this buy a couple of rounds of benefit?

It's not like "the guy who keeps missing all his attacks" automatically gets ignored, either. The point here is to slow down the "geek the mage" response, not to prevent all hostility towards the character. Unless your monsters never attack anybody but the mages, in which case I certainly don't blame them for trying this trick.

[RSP]

Yeah, that would get a no from me. If you don't put enough time and effort into your performance (i.e. use the action as appropriate), anyone would be able to tell you aren't even trying to pretend properly. They may not be able to tell you're casting spells (watch out for M components, though), but they'll know something's up, and if everyone fights for their lives and one guy just lazily waves a sword around once in a while and magic happens without any other obvious source, anyone with half a brain is gonna put two and two together.


But will they do so during the first round? Or will this buy a couple of rounds of benefit?

It's not like "the guy who keeps missing all his attacks" automatically gets ignored, either. The point here is to slow down the "geek the mage" response, not to prevent all hostility towards the character. Unless your monsters never attack anybody but the mages, in which case I certainly don't blame them for trying this trick.

I’ll also add, observing all this in the chaos of a life-or-death fight isn’t exactly a given. I’d imagine to really put this all together you’d need at least a few rounds of observing (say 15-20 seconds of watching someone), and not be actively fighting for your own life.

Parrying incoming attacks, while trying to land killing blows yourself, doesn’t really lend itself to thoughts of “is that guy with the sword fighting those thugs really giving 100%?”

[Samayu]

Yeah, that would get a no from me. If you don't put enough time and effort into your performance (i.e. use the action as appropriate), anyone would be able to tell you aren't even trying to pretend properly. They may not be able to tell you're casting spells (watch out for M components, though), but they'll know something's up, and if everyone fights for their lives and one guy just lazily waves a sword around once in a while and magic happens without any other obvious source, anyone with half a brain is gonna put two and two together.

Instead, maybe the sorcerer becomes the guy in the back barking orders?

[JackPhoenix]

But will they do so during the first round? Or will this buy a couple of rounds of benefit?

First round? Probably not. After that? Yeah, most likely.


It's not like "the guy who keeps missing all his attacks" automatically gets ignored, either. The point here is to slow down the "geek the mage" response, not to prevent all hostility towards the character. Unless your monsters never attack anybody but the mages, in which case I certainly don't blame them for trying this trick.

There's difference between "keeps missing all his attacks" and "doesn't even try to attack". The Action used represents some expenditure of effort, whether the effort is successful or not. What you're suggesting is not even movie "hit the opponent's weapon with your weapon somewhere halfway between the two of you instead of trying to kill each other" pretend combat, it's "vaguely wave your weapon in the air once in a while".

[CTurbo]

Subtle spell on a caster with telepathy is a lot of fun. Especially if the spell doesn't require S or M, only V, like Command, Dissonant Whispers, Vicious Mockery, Tasha's Mind Whip, etc...

[RSP]

There's difference between "keeps missing all his attacks" and "doesn't even try to attack". The Action used represents some expenditure of effort, whether the effort is successful or not. What you're suggesting is not even movie "hit the opponent's weapon with your weapon somewhere halfway between the two of you instead of trying to kill each other" pretend combat, it's "vaguely wave your weapon in the air once in a while".

In your view of how combat goes, do participants regularly parry or avoid incoming attacks, outside of taking the Dodge Action?

As in, have you ever described someone missing as their opponent blocking with a shield, turning away from the attack at the last second, parrying the attack, etc.

If so, just standing there with your weapon “sizing up your opponent’s moves for 12 seconds isn’t exactly outside the realm of possibility. There’s no reason to think the Sorcerer isn’t also doing those defensive moves.

In that sense, they wouldn’t appear to be doing nothing or not participating in combat.

[JackPhoenix]

In your view of how combat goes, do participants regularly parry or avoid incoming attacks, outside of taking the Dodge Action?

As in, have you ever described someone missing as their opponent blocking with a shield, turning away from the attack at the last second, parrying the attack, etc.

If so, just standing there with your weapon “sizing up your opponent’s moves for 12 seconds isn’t exactly outside the realm of possibility. There’s no reason to think the Sorcerer isn’t also doing those defensive moves.

In that sense, they wouldn’t appear to be doing nothing or not participating in combat.

Completely irrelevant. We're talking about offense, not defense.

[RSP]

Completely irrelevant. We're talking about offense, not defense.

I thought the conversation was about whether enemies would notice the big warrior not fighting (as they’re actually a Sorc Subtle casting to avoid getting swarmed as the “caster”).



Yeah, that would get a no from me. If you don't put enough time and effort into your performance (i.e. use the action as appropriate), anyone would be able to tell you aren't even trying to pretend properly… if everyone fights for their lives and one guy just lazily waves a sword around once in a while and magic happens without any other obvious source, anyone with half a brain is gonna put two and two together.

Is your thinking that not being great at offense over ~12 seconds would identify the character as a caster?

This seems to assume there is no defense from the Subtle caster - that they’re “just lazily waves a sword”; however, if characters take defensive moves, then that’s not what they appear to be doing as they are actively moving that sword around.