Divine Soul Sorcerer is an Infiltrator!

[Silpharon]

Picture this: a rogue and a divine soul sorcerer are robbing a mansion. They've gotten inside to the treasure chamber, only to be stopped by a very hard locked door (perhaps with arcane lock). There are guards patrolling, so time and silence is of the essence...

The rogue pulls out his stethoscope, lockpicks, and takes a good minute working the ornate door lock. He tries to be silent, but faint clicks and clacks can't be helped.
Rogue: I've got this... 29 on my thieves tools check!
DM: The door doesn't budge
Rogue: What!?!? Whelp, we're done for... Guards will be here in less than a minute!
Sorc: <via message cantrip> Ssshhh... Wait...
The sorcerer stares at the door motionless and quiet for 12 seconds, then it just opens without a sound.
Rogue: ...unbearable...shame...

Opening the door is done with the knock spell, but knock produces a audible sound emanating from the door that reaches out 300ft... Unless you cast silence first near the door, which doesn't allow sound generated inside to be emitted in or out of the sphere. But wait, knock requires a verbal component, so unless you cast from afar, you'll need to use subtle metamagic to remove that component. While we're at it, silence requires a verbal component too, so let's cast that with subtle metamagic to prevent any noise. Now the sorcerer can just look at the door and it opens... I believe the Divine Soul subclass is unique (edit: without specific feats) in this combo, as silence is a cleric spell and knock is a sorcerer spell.

My favorite would be if time wasn't of the essence, and silence was cast subtly as a ritual to save the spell slot. Now the sorcerer just stands there doing nothing for 10 minutes and 6 seconds to open the door. If that doesn't drive a rogue crazy I'm not sure what will! sorcerers don't get access to ritual casting, thanks Greywander!

This is part of a larger infiltrator build I've been playing, The Lightning Ghost, a 6-class arcane sneaky sniper. It's the third option written about here:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?640976-Build-The-Lightning-Sniper-a-Nova-Specialist

[Chronos]

What the heck kind of lock doesn't open with a 29 on the check?

And just how close are the monsters, if the click of a lock is enough to alert them?

And why is it taking the rogue ten times as long as it should to open the door?

[Silpharon]

What the heck kind of lock doesn't open with a 29 on the check?
A DC 20 lock with Arcane Lock applied.

And just how close are the monsters, if the click of a lock is enough to alert them?
Other side of the door perhaps? Or maybe a symbol or glyph that goes off with noise.

And why is it taking the rogue ten times as long as it should to open the door?
Maybe it doesn't take a minute, but I don't think lockpicking a difficult lock is going to take 6 seconds regardless of skill.

I just thought the Divine Soul Sorcerer combo was fun. I'm not trying to downplay rogues, just jest a bit. :)

[Spo]

What the heck kind of lock doesn't open with a 29 on the check?

And just how close are the monsters, if the click of a lock is enough to alert them?

And why is it taking the rogue ten times as long as it should to open the door?

Sounds like the DM just doesn’t like the rogue player’s character.

[Mastikator]

Could've saved spell slots by casting guidance on the rogue, pushing their result past 30.

[Keltest]

Could've saved spell slots by casting guidance on the rogue, pushing their result past 30.

Or just have a regular cleric cast silence and them cast "Hammer" on the door until it breaks open.

[LudicSavant]

I have always said that one of the uses of Silence (especially when cast as a Ritual) is to open doors and/or walls. You don't even need Knock, just bring some sledgehammers. Enlarge/Reduce can break a door too.


What the heck kind of lock doesn't open with a 29 on the check

Any DC 20 lock + Arcane Lock will do it, and the spell is just a 25gp investment for the Evil Wizard.

Or you could just get an Abloy Protec2. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Could've saved spell slots by casting guidance on the rogue, pushing their result past 30.

Winner. Heck, if cast ahead of time they wouldn't have even needed sorcery points.

[Silpharon]

Sounds like the DM just doesn’t like the rogue player’s character.
This was just an anecdote for a laugh, the point was that a divine soul sorcerer can just stand there and any locked door/object opens without a sound. Rogues stereotypically are a bit arrogant, so this would naturally fluster them. :)

[animorte]

I’m honestly just a bit surprised to see a Sorcerer having knock taking up one of their valuable spells known, especially since Divine Soul gets the Cleric list too and there’s a Rogue in the party.

I can still appreciate the anecdote though. Highlight yet again, the problem with casters! :smalltongue:

[ShehaQM]

“ My favorite would be if time wasn't of the essence, and silence was cast subtly as a ritual to save the spell slot. Now the sorcerer just stands there doing nothing for 10 minutes and 6 seconds to open the door. If that doesn't drive a rogue crazy I'm not sure what will!”

Amazing 😂

[Silpharon]

I have always said that one of the uses of Silence (especially when cast as a Ritual) is to open doors and/or walls. You don't even need Knock, just bring some sledgehammers. Enlarge/Reduce can break a door too.
Yep, only issue for infiltration would be the trail left behind from the sledgehammer or door off its hinges. I believe knock doesn't damage the door, and the arcane lock re-enables after 10 minutes.

I’m honestly just a bit surprised to see a Sorcerer having knock taking up one of their valuable spells known, especially since Divine Soul gets the Cleric list too and there’s a Rogue in the party.

I can still appreciate the anecdote though. Highlight yet again, the problem with casters! :smalltongue:
Yeah... In my build I'm only Cha 13 and have other traditional spells through multi-classing. If I was doing a single class Divine Soul Sorcerer, I doubt knock would make the cut. A "Mark of Warding" dwarf cleric with the metamagic adept feat would be more appropriate to prepare these spells in advance.

[Greywander]

My favorite would be if time wasn't of the essence, and silence was cast subtly as a ritual to save the spell slot. Now the sorcerer just stands there doing nothing for 10 minutes and 6 seconds to open the door. If that doesn't drive a rogue crazy I'm not sure what will!
Um. How do I say this?

Sorcerers don't get rituals.

You can actually get this combo to work on a bard, sorcerer, or wizard (basically, any class that learns Knock) by picking up the Ritual Caster and Metamagic Adept feats. Special mention to bard, who has both Knock and Silence on their spell list, and gets ritual casting, so you'd only need Metamagic Adept. You could also dip three levels into cleric and three levels into sorcerer, and spend the rest of your levels on anything else. Three levels in Divine Soul are also sufficient if you don't need ritual casting.

[Corran]

Sounds like the DM just doesn’t like the rogue player’s character.
Only if they rule that the rogue's lucky lockpick breaks after the failed attempt.


Rogues stereotypically are a bit arrogant, so this would naturally fluster them. :)
Rogues are stereotypically cunning (and daring). It's part of their charm. To put it in a cheesy way, a rogue shows up as one more when it comes to the mind and heart than when it comes to hands. I'd think that your average rogue would be more likely to be happy instead of angry to let the sorcerer focus on the locked door leading to treasure. This way they have an easier time knocking you unconscious and getting away with all the loot instead of sharing it. In a slightly more serious note, getting what you want the easy way sounds more roguish to me than craving fame or appreciation. Not that a rogue couldn't want those of course.

The combo is a nice catch btw. I'd also say that subtle silence alone can go a long way, and especially in a featless game that features heists and hard pushes into enemy territory, a divine soul sounds like an excellent choice. Thanks for sharing it.

[Pex]

Once played an Arcana cleric. The party needed to enter a room in a bank but had to fight guards inside. Meanwhile the door to enter was visible to guards on the other side of a large room. I cast Minor Illusion of the door to be opened so that it looks like the door itself but closed. With the rest of the party engaging in battle with the guards inside I cast Silence so that the sounds of battle is not heard. I then hid and kept out of combat because concentrating on Silence was crucial. The guards in the large room never suspected a thing and stayed where they were.

[Silpharon]

Um. How do I say this?

Sorcerers don't get rituals.


Yarg, good catch. I keep thinking all classes can cast rituals if the spell is marked as such. My bad, I'll edit the OP.

[Greywander]

Yarg, good catch. I keep thinking all classes can cast rituals if the spell is marked as such. My bad, I'll edit the OP.
Maybe it's just me, but instead of just deleting something that was incorrect, I tend to prefer to strike through that text and add the correction immediately afterwards, so that context isn't lost for those reading the thread later on.

Anyway, I might be weird here, but I'd actually like to see a lot more diversity in spellcasters. This might not be a good fit for D&D, but I'd like to see wizards focused exclusively on rituals (so infinite spells but long casting times), while sorcerers get very few spells but can just pop them out instantly and can cast them all day long (perhaps using regenerating stamina as a resource). I feel like artificer is a nice first step toward this kind of "odd" casting, what with their infusions, but I'd like to see more. And even the artificer I much prefer my own homebrewed version that replaces spellcasting with a spell-storing item system.

Anyway. For the lowest level investment, bard 3 or Divine Soul 3 are the quickest ways to get access to this. Bard requires the Metamagic Adept feat, and the Divine Soul lacks ritual casting (but could get it via a feat), so neither is ideal. If you want to save a feat then there's no avoiding a 3 level dip into two different classes, which ends up costing you one of your ASIs anyway. Or you could either settle for not having Subtle Spell as a bard or not having ritual casting as a sorcerer. You could also be a wizard and pick up Ritual Caster (cleric), but then you can only cast Silence as a ritual. And if you have time to do a ritual, you have time for the rogue to take 20.

[Silpharon]

Maybe it's just me, but instead of just deleting something that was incorrect, I tend to prefer to strike through that text and add the correction immediately afterwards, so that context isn't lost for those reading the thread later on.
Fixed, apologies for poor OP etiquette.



Anyway, I might be weird here, but I'd actually like to see a lot more diversity in spellcasters. This might not be a good fit for D&D, but I'd like to see wizards focused exclusively on rituals (so infinite spells but long casting times), while sorcerers get very few spells but can just pop them out instantly and can cast them all day long (perhaps using regenerating stamina as a resource). I feel like artificer is a nice first step toward this kind of "odd" casting, what with their infusions, but I'd like to see more. And even the artificer I much prefer my own homebrewed version that replaces spellcasting with a spell-storing item system.
Interesting concept. I think you'd need to give wizards more unique and powerful cantrips if all their leveled spells must be cast as rituals. Otherwise they'd be fairly impotent. I like the concept though. The RAW notion that wizards can only prepare (memorize) spells during a long rest feels gamey - especially since it only takes 1 minute/spell-level to memorize them.


Anyway. For the lowest level investment, bard 3 or Divine Soul 3 are the quickest ways to get access to this. Bard requires the Metamagic Adept feat, and the Divine Soul lacks ritual casting (but could get it via a feat), so neither is ideal. If you want to save a feat then there's no avoiding a 3 level dip into two different classes, which ends up costing you one of your ASIs anyway. Or you could either settle for not having Subtle Spell as a bard or not having ritual casting as a sorcerer. You could also be a wizard and pick up Ritual Caster (cleric), but then you can only cast Silence as a ritual. And if you have time to do a ritual, you have time for the rogue to take 20.
Yeah, I don't think it's worth the investment to get silence as a ritual. So the combo remains expensive, but like you said - if you had the time to spare, the rogue would get there eventually.