Semi-RAW nerf for Polymorph

[Chronos]

It's widely recognized that the Polymorph spells are unbalanced. Now, of course, the DM is free to address this imbalance any way he wishes, including banning the spells outright. But it occurs to me that there might even be a (possibly tenuous) interpretation of the Rules As Written which would explicitly allow the DM to decrease the power of the spells.

From the text of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm):
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.It's not mentioned explicitly on that list, but dragonhide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#dragonhide) is also a material of great intrinsic value in D&D. Well, a dragon inherently must include dragonhide, so this would imply that you can't polymorph into a dragon.

Likewise, I'm sure there's some market value for Solar blood, and it's probably very high. Or for the body parts or tissues of a great many other high-powered creatures. So this gives the DM a pretext for banning any Polymorph form which he decides has valuable anatomy.

[deadseashoals]

Except that only PaO has that text.

[F.L.]

Only PAO can be permanent anymore, and useful to a party.

[Chronos]

Except that only PaO has that text.But PAO can simulate any of the lower-level polymorph spells, so any limitation that it has, the lower-level spells must likewise have. Granted, this still leaves the possibility of Shapechange open, but that's the only one.

[deadseashoals]

But PAO can simulate any of the lower-level polymorph spells, so any limitation that it has, the lower-level spells must likewise have. Granted, this still leaves the possibility of Shapechange open, but that's the only one.

That's not actually RAW, you know. At that point, you're inserting "common sense" into the equation, and if you're going to do that, it defeats the whole purpose of reading the rules in a questionable way that could, maybe, possibly be RAW to nerf a spell.

[triforcel]

You know, since what has intrinsic value depends entirely on the universe, PAO can be made practically worthless without changing what it does at all.

[Gralamin]

By a too much common sense reading (where yes, it becomes nonsense), do you think that anything that costs 1200 gp has great intrinsic value? Because thats how much it costs to have some one cast the spell.

Of course, this is totally nonsense.

[Aquillion]

But PAO can simulate any of the lower-level polymorph spells, so any limitation that it has, the lower-level spells must likewise have. Granted, this still leaves the possibility of Shapechange open, but that's the only one.That logic is completely backwards. Read the text:

This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.It can also duplicate those spells, using an entirely seperate clause from any of its other abilities; when it's duplicating them, none of the text in its description except that one sentence apply. When you use PAO to mimic one of those spells, you get the exact effect written in that spells' text (except from a level 8 spell, with appropriately-adjusted saves and so on); you don't get anything from PAO.

For instance, PAO can exactly duplicate the effects of Flesh to Stone or Stone to Flesh, producing a permanent effect even though the rest of PAO's text would normally prevent that with such a radical change.

PAO's ability to mimick those spells lets it circumvent its own restrictions under limited cases. That's the whole point of that line.

[Hagentai]

That's not actually RAW, you know. At that point, you're inserting "common sense" into the equation, and if you're going to do that, it defeats the whole purpose of reading the rules in a questionable way that could, maybe, possibly be RAW to nerf a spell.


If all gamers were more like this, the world would be a better place. PREACH ON!

[puppyavenger]

um how is gold et cetra intrinsicly valuable anyway? objectivly its just a shiny metal.

[Theodoxus]

Not only that, but the authors break their own rule regarding precious metals when making Mithril and Adamantine golems, which specifically states using PAO to turn iron into those substances.

I'm far more inclined to move the entire polymorph school into illusion and be done with it. You look like a big scary honkin' monster, but you're not really.

Oh, but keep Shapechange, cuz it's iconic and neat and not permanent... though maybe limit it to native material plane creatures only... just to limit the abuse. :)

[Chronos]

For instance, PAO can exactly duplicate the effects of Flesh to Stone or Stone to Flesh, producing a permanent effect even though the rest of PAO's text would normally prevent that with such a radical change.

PAO's ability to mimick those spells lets it circumvent its own restrictions under limited cases. That's the whole point of that line.Hmm, good point. OK, so this wouldn't apply to the lower-level spells (which, although slightly less broken than PAO, are still broken).


Not only that, but the authors break their own rule regarding precious metals when making Mithril and Adamantine golems, which specifically states using PAO to turn iron into those substances.Is that an effect of the Polymorph explicitly, or a result of the golem ritual as a whole? In any event, just because they break the rules doesn't justify anyone else doing so.

[sikyon]

Is that an effect of the Polymorph explicitly, or a result of the golem ritual as a whole? In any event, just because they break the rules doesn't justify anyone else doing so.

It demonstrates that the rule can be broken, thus it's not really a rule (and by rule I mean "natural law")

[Draz74]

um how is gold et cetra intrinsicly valuable anyway? objectivly its just a shiny metal.

It's soft and therefore easy to shape and work with. It's durable chemically (does not react with other chemicals easily), which is especially valuable because it means that gold does not tarnish or rust or corrode over time. It's also an extremely good conductor of electricity, although that part wouldn't be of much use in a medieval society.

[Kaelik]

It's soft and therefore easy to shape and work with. It's durable chemically (does not react with other chemicals easily), which is especially valuable because it means that gold does not tarnish or rust or corrode over time. It's also an extremely good conductor of electricity, although that part wouldn't be of much use in a medieval society.

The problem with saying something like that, and talking about POA's limitation on intrinsically valuable is that if something is intrinsically valuable because it can be used to do something then everything is.

Rock is useful to do X, Y, and Z. Everything is useful because of X. So by that logic, POA can't actually ever be cast.

The clause is there only to prevent a caster from making lots of money from the spell, that's all. Anytime you cast any spell you are doing it to create something valuable. Even if that is just keeping yourself alive.