Magewright and Imbue With Spell Ability

[Zombulian]

I was just looking at the Magewright spell list (it's actually not bad) and saw that they have access to Imbue with Spell Ability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm). Neat! Or, it could be. There is the issue of the wording of the spell. It only allows you to transfer cleric spells, and apparently only cleric spells that you personally have prepared. Is there a special clause in the Eberron books that addresses this?

[Thurbane]

Welcome to devs not knowing how things work 101. :smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

No such thing as "Cleric spells" (or, for that matter, "Paladin spells", "Wizard spells", etc)
It's a known dysfunction:

A large portion of game terminology in and of itself only has meaning as granted by players, not actually within the rules.

for instance, Sword of the Arcane Order and Battle blessing refer to Wizard spells and Paladin spells respectively, but these actually have no definition in game. We take these to mean respectively spells found on the wizard spell list, and spells the paladin has cast.

[Zombulian]

No such thing as "Cleric spells" (or, for that matter, "Paladin spells", "Wizard spells", etc)
It's a known dysfunction:

Hmmm unhelpful.


Welcome to devs not knowing how things work 101. :smallamused:

Classic. Rereading the spell it’s also unclear if you actually need to have prepared the spells? The only restriction the spell gives is that you can’t prepare a new 4th level spell until the target has expended the spells you gave them.

[Darg]

No such thing as "Cleric spells" (or, for that matter, "Paladin spells", "Wizard spells", etc)
It's a known dysfunction:

Classification of a category is defining that category. The PHB classifies them as "x-class spells." Paladin spells being synonymous with paladin spell list is what the PHB does. It is not player assumption to mimic the presentation given by the book that presents the rules.

The only dysfunction is players not realizing that the PHB was designed as an insular source. Meaning it was not designed to accommodate additional content seamlessly. There are plenty of comments, descriptions, and rules that imply that the core rulebooks are the only ones to exist.


Classic. Rereading the spell it’s also unclear if you actually need to have prepared the spells? The only restriction the spell gives is that you can’t prepare a new 4th level spell until the target has expended the spells you gave them.

"You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them, to another creature."

The first sentence of the description.

[ShurikVch]

Classification of a category is defining that category. The PHB classifies them as "x-class spells." Paladin spells being synonymous with paladin spell list is what the PHB does. It is not player assumption to mimic the presentation given by the book that presents the rules.
Can you provide the quote?
I don't saying you're wrong (not all of listed dysfunctions are factually correct), but this one persisted for almost a decade without anybody arguing against it, and cursory search in the Player's Handbook gave me nothing of relevance

[Darg]

Can you provide the quote?
I don't saying you're wrong (not all of listed dysfunctions are factually correct), but this one persisted for almost a decade without anybody arguing against it, and cursory search in the Player's Handbook gave me nothing of relevance

It's in the table of contents and the relevant spells chapter. It's the title of each of the spell lists.

[Fero]

I think this is a situation where you should work with your DM to settle on a reasonable interpretation. In this case, I would recommend changing the spell to work of the Magewright (not Cleric) spell list, keeping all school restrictions. This makes sense as I doubt the drafters intended that magewrights must cross reference the Cleric spell list to cast the limited pool of Magewright spells.

[Darg]

I think this is a situation where you should work with your DM to settle on a reasonable interpretation. In this case, I would recommend changing the spell to work of the Magewright (not Cleric) spell list, keeping all school restrictions. This makes sense as I doubt the drafters intended that magewrights must cross reference the Cleric spell list to cast the limited pool of Magewright spells.

It's also the same issue with the magic domain + Arcane Disciple. In the PHB imbue with spell ability is only on the cleric list so it was appropriate to specify the clerics spells because they likely didn't want you to multiclass and use the spell on another class' spells.

[ShurikVch]

It's in the table of contents and the relevant spells chapter. It's the title of each of the spell lists.
Detect Poison (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectPoison.htm):

Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 0
Whose spell is it?

[Rebel7284]

Detect Poison (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectPoison.htm):

Whose spell is it?

All, but if you need a single answer, it defaults to Wizard. At least that's how SLAs work :)

[Darg]

Detect Poison (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectPoison.htm):

Whose spell is it?

That isn't relevant. "x-class" spells is synonymous with "x-class" spell list. That's all. What is the argument you are trying to make?

[ShurikVch]

That isn't relevant. "x-class" spells is synonymous with "x-class" spell list.
Firstly: any quote to support it?
Secondly: what's with multi-list spells?
Thirdly: spells which exist only in Domains, Initiate feats, etc?

[Thurbane]

I really think we are overthinking this.

There mightn't be an iron clad RAW citation to be had, but I think it's very reasonable, and commonly understood, what a "cleric" spell means.

To me, it means a spell which appears on the Cleric spell lists. Yes, the spell might also appear on list of other classes, and domains, and maybe even Initiate Feats and such, but to me, it is still clearly a "Cleric Spell"...

[Darg]

Firstly: any quote to support it?
Secondly: what's with multi-list spells?
Thirdly: spells which exist only in Domains, Initiate feats, etc?

1)

This chapter begins with the spell lists of the spellcasting classes and the list of cleric domains and the spells associated with each domain.

Bard Spells

Cleric Spells

Druid Spells

Paladin Spells

Ranger Spells

Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
What are you even asking?

2) Are you trying to imply that a paladin spell can't be cleric spell even if they are on both lists?

3) Domain spells are not automatically part of the cleric spell list and thus are not cleric spells; unless you find a way to add them to your spell list, which by definition pertains to you, not generally. Initiate feats add the spells to your "x-class" spell list:


In addition, you add the following spells to your cleric spell list.

[Feantar]

Secondly: what's with multi-list spells?


Jupiter, is a Planet and a Gas Giant. I am both a Windows user and an Android user. So multi-list spells' types are all the lists they belong in.


Thirdly: spells which exist only in Domains, Initiate feats, etc?
I don't think these have a category. They are just "spells".

[ciopo]

I dare say the commonly accepted definational for "X spell" is "it was granted to your character by having levels in X"

Otherwise a cleric could take battle blessing and use that for those spells that appear on both cleric and paladin list, because spell Z "is" a paladin spell, but I believe it's commonly accepted that it's not a paladin spell for that cleric character without paladin levels

I've had to argue for this relatively recently, had a player trying to take battle blessing on a chameleon. I vetoed it on the basis that those divine spells he was preparing were "chameleon" spells for him.


But I suppose if one is to take "it appears on the X list" to mean "it is an X spell", then clerics have paladin spells and vice versa

[St Fan]

Otherwise a cleric could take battle blessing and use that for those spells that appear on both cleric and paladin list, because spell Z "is" a paladin spell, but I believe it's commonly accepted that it's not a paladin spell for that cleric character without paladin levels

I've had to argue for this relatively recently, had a player trying to take battle blessing on a chameleon. I vetoed it on the basis that those divine spells he was preparing were "chameleon" spells for him.


That was the right call. Also, the Chameleon class explicitly says that none of the temporary class features gained with Aptitude Focus or Mimic Class Feature can be used as prerequisites. Since Battle Blessing has "Ability to cast paladin spells," as a prerequisite, the character couldn't pick the feat in the first place (not without 5 levels of Paladin), even with plenty Paladin spells prepared through Divine Focus.

The starting question about imbue with spell ability could be asked about Archivists too: are they also limited to Cleric spells, or can they imbue any divine spell they know fitting within the required magic schools...

[Darg]

That was the right call. Also, the Chameleon class explicitly says that none of the temporary class features gained with Aptitude Focus or Mimic Class Feature can be used as prerequisites. Since Battle Blessing has "Ability to cast paladin spells," as a prerequisite, the character couldn't pick the feat in the first place (not without 5 levels of Paladin), even with plenty Paladin spells prepared through Divine Focus.

The starting question about imbue with spell ability could be asked about Archivists too: are they also limited to Cleric spells, or can they imbue any divine spell they know fitting within the required magic schools...

By literal interpretation? If the spell isn't on the cleric spell list it isn't a cleric spell. If the archivist learned death ward as a 5th level spell, it's actually a druid spell, not a cleric spell because it's not on the cleric spell list as a 5th level spell. That said, archivist is a fairly unique case. As a roleplayer I like the idea that if they don't learn the spell from a cleric created source, then they don't learn it as a cleric spell. Like each class has its own unique way to express spells because of the way they receive/cast them. But in a practical sense I only rule that the spells only have to be as on the cleric list to be a cleric spell when learned.

Archivist is also a good example that they use spell list and x-class spells interchangeably.