How to gain multiple cohorts and followers!

[Max Caysey]

So, after a few evenings scouring the interwebs for answers I have come to the conclusion I need some help answering a few simple questions that despite me best efforts has eluded me. The questions pertain to a few feats in the leadership department.

1) If you take both leadership and undead leadership do you gain the benefit of both feats - meaning 2 cohorts and 2 pools of followers?

2) Does dragon cohort grant an extra cohort if you already have leadership or undead leadership?

3) Does great diplomat grant an extra cohort if you already have leadership or undead leadership?


As far as I can tell there is no unanimous consensus on either of these questions. Therefore I would love to hear both your RAW and RAI interpretation as well as how you would rule if you were the DM at a table where someone was trying to max out followers! The goal of mine is really amassing as many cohorts and followers as possible. My own interpretation is that the above combination of having both leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort, and great diplomat would indeed yield 4 cohorts and 2 pools of followers. While this might not be appropriate for the majority of campaigns, I still think this is the correct interpretation of the above...

Any comments or help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!

[Melcar]

So, after a few evenings scouring the interwebs for answers I have come to the conclusion I need some help answering a few simple questions that despite me best efforts has eluded me. The questions pertain to a few feats in the leadership department.

1) If you take both leadership and undead leadership do you gain the benefit of both feats - meaning 2 cohorts and 2 pools of followers?

2) Does dragon cohort grant an extra cohort if you already have leadership or undead leadership?

3) Does great diplomat grant an extra cohort if you already have leadership or undead leadership?


As far as I can tell there is no unanimous consensus on either of these questions. Therefore I would love to hear both your RAW and RAI interpretation as well as how you would rule if you were the DM at a table where someone was trying to max out followers! The goal of mine is really amassing as many cohorts and followers as possible. My own interpretation is that the above combination of having both leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort, and great diplomat would indeed yield 4 cohorts and 2 pools of followers. While this might not be appropriate for the majority of campaigns, I still think this is the correct interpretation of the above...

Any comments or help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!

My interpretation of based on what I could find online is that

1 = Yes
2 = Yes
3 = Yes

Having clauses like: “as if you took feat X” does not imo mean that the feat you are about to take supersedes the feat X. So taking a feat which gives you a cohort as if you had taken leadership does not mean that they both do not function. Both feats still gives a cohort! At least in my interpretation!

[aglondier]

As written, it doesn't specifically disallow taking multiple leadership feats...however, 3rd edition was not inclined to allow the stacking of similar abilities or bonuses.

As a player, I might try convincing my DM to allow it.

As a DM, I would not allow it.

Just my 2cp...

[Feantar]

RAW: Since the bonuses (cohorts) don't come from the same source and they don't bear a type (as same types don't stack unless specified), yes, you get extra cohorts.

On my side, I'd either dissallow the feats entirely, or allow you to have multiple cohorts and pools (although, at that point, the game turns into Turn Based Strategy or possibly Turn Based Resource Management Sim).

Now, to get Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Great Diplomat, Wild Cohort & Obtain Familiar. :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

Now, to get Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Great Diplomat, Wild Cohort & Obtain Familiar. :smalltongue:
Also, Apprentice (Entertainer) from Dungeon Master's Guide II, Minions and Sidekick from Dungeon #90

[bean illus]

On my side, I'd either dissallow the feats entirely, or ...

Now, to get Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Great Diplomat, Wild Cohort & Obtain Familiar. :smalltongue:


Also, Apprentice (Entertainer) from Dungeon Master's Guide II, Minions and Sidekick from Dungeon #90

Is there room in there for druid, or handle animal? A level of Mindbender might be fun for telepathy.

[Melcar]

Now, to get Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Great Diplomat, Wild Cohort & Obtain Familiar. :smalltongue:

Does anyone have access to like a screen dump or printing of Wild Cohort... I can only find it one place, but not its original place!

Thanks in advance!

[loky1109]

Does anyone have access to like a screen dump or printing of Wild Cohort... I can only find it one place, but not its original place!

Thanks in advance!

I have: https://web.archive.org/web/20210217062407/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

[Melcar]

I have: https://web.archive.org/web/20210217062407/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

Sweet... I have this idea for a Druid that would benefit from extra animals...

Thanks!

[Hua]

Even if you go with allowing multiple cohorts, they all will be impacted by the penalty to your leadership.

The Leader . .Has a familiar, special mount, or –2 animal companion
Recruits a cohort of a different alignment –1 Caused the death of a cohort –2*
* Cumulative per cohort killed

It says 'special mount' but it is really talking to having someone else that the Leader especially cares about. This wasn't built with multiple cohorts as a possibility, but by intent, another cohort should count as at least as a cumulative -2 to the leadership score. Lower leadership score means lower cohort max level and fewer followers.

It also adds the risk of different alignment and causing death of cohort penalties.

[Mordante]

Why would a DM allow any leadership feat at all? It leads to more book keeping and no one likes that.

[Melcar]

Even if you go with allowing multiple cohorts, they all will be impacted by the penalty to your leadership.

The Leader . .Has a familiar, special mount, or –2 animal companion
Recruits a cohort of a different alignment –1 Caused the death of a cohort –2*
* Cumulative per cohort killed

It says 'special mount' but it is really talking to having someone else that the Leader especially cares about. This wasn't built with multiple cohorts as a possibility, but by intent, another cohort should count as at least as a cumulative -2 to the leadership score. Lower leadership score means lower cohort max level and fewer followers.

It also adds the risk of different alignment and causing death of cohort penalties.

I will argue that most if not all of your post is wrong. Wild cohort is not an animal companion, but a cohort which is an animal. Its also not a special mount and if the leadership refers to a special mount it means special mount and not anyone else the leader cares about... so no, every cohort should not automatically incur a cumulative -2 penalty - there seem to be no argument for that at all...

The DMG also mentions that there is no limit to the number of cohorts one can have therefore the argument that its not meant for multiple cohorts is most likely wrong.

Having a wild cohort tho, will have the effect of having a cohort with a different alignment.




Why would a DM allow any leadership feat at all? It leads to more book keeping and no one likes that.

First of all, more bookkeeping is fun for a lot of people - including me - and why many choose to stay with 3.5 instead of going to 5th.

Secondly, why would it be more bookkeeping for the DM, when its the player who has they feat, creates and manages the followers and cohort, calculates loot and exp etc.? Nowhere in the rules does it have to be the DM doing this. Its actually only fair that the player is doing it not the DM. If the player wants to run a thief guild, why would that be more work for the DM, when its the players running it?????

Also, leadership is only a problem if the player is a douche... so I might ask why play with douches at all? If you need to reign in your players something is wrong in that table to begin with!

[JNAProductions]

Leadership can cause issues without people being malicious.

[Melcar]

Leadership can cause issues without people being malicious.

I would again argument thats it would be the player having the feat who would be causing the problem, not the feat!

Clearly some tables think the published npcs are OP, so anything above toughness is OP in their view but for the vast majority of tables I would argue a that leadership is a cool and effective feat! And in that case it’s the player not the feat who would be the root of any possible problems!

[Jay R]

Why would a DM allow any leadership feat at all? It leads to more book keeping and no one likes that.

Because "not creating more bookkeeping" isn't the primary motive for making decisions as a DM. [If it were, then the optimal decision is not to DM at all..]

I would allow it if the situation called for it. If one player doesn't get to do much, I would actively encourage it. Or, if the party doesn't have a healer, then a cohort cleric makes a lot of sense. Similarly, a rogue cohort or a fighter cohort as a bodyguard are fine.


Does the party have a gaping need?
Does this player need more playtime in the game?
Is the cohort going to mess up the DM's current plans?


These aren't the only considerations, but they are things to think about when somebody asks the DM about a Leadership feat. Note that I did not include "Is this more bookkeeping" on the list.


Leadership can cause issues without people being malicious.

Sure it can. A lot of feats can, just like a lot of other things. The DM's job isn't to disallow things that can cause issues, but to allow as much as possible, and then to prevent the issues from coming up.


---

Getting back to the original question: I would allow multiple cohorts only in the right situation, and never for a player who is already getting the majority of the action time in the game.

I would also have a previous cohort count as -2 on the Leadership score, just like an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.