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View Full Version : Solo's quick fixes to the Caster- NonCaster Disparity



Solo
2007-11-30, 10:33 PM
A friend of mine is DMing for me, and we haven't started quite yet, so I've proposed a small list of fixes to help "balance" the game world (A DnD homebrew world).

I am the only power gamer in our small group, and as I've been told, the only one with a good eye for gaging things like balance. I think they have overrated me personally, but I suppose I'm better at it than they are...

Anyways, without the time to do excessive homebrewing, I have decided to make modifications to some classes, replace others, and hope I get something vaguely resembling a better balanced game.

Here are my ideas:

Clerics of non-war gods replaced by Cloistered Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)

Druids use the Shapeshifter variant found in the PHB2, trading their Animal Companion and Wildshape for the ability to Shapeshift into a variety of predetermined creatures.

Sorcerers are Metamagic Specialists (PHB2), able to use their metamagic on spells 3+int mod times per day without penalty. They get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level, and one bonus feat per five levels later, which can be used for a magic or crafting related feat.

Fighters replaced by Warblades, Monks by Swordsages, and Paladins by Crusaiders, ideally. All classes from Tome of Battle.

If not, we could replace the Fighter and Paladin with... Psychic Warrior? It seems like a versatile class with the ability to heal, buff and go for direct combat depending on power selection.

Not sure how to make Monks suck less, though.

Oh, and the spells Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Shivering Touch, Celerity and Greater Celerity do not exist. At all.

Alex12
2007-11-30, 10:42 PM
Not sure how to make Monks suck less, though.

It shouldn't be too hard to tweak a SoulKnife to fit.

Ponce
2007-11-30, 10:43 PM
Good ideas, in all.


Clerics of non-war gods replaced by Cloistered Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)

How much would this really help, though? At low levels, it might slow them down a bit, but at higher levels... meh. They cast divine power and they're still a CoDzilla. Heck, now they're a CoDzilla with skill points.

Also, what about wizards and noncore classes? I've been toying with the idea of a wizard variant that only casts spells from scrolls and doesn't actually have prepared spells; only a spellbook with which to craft. I'm not sure how well it would work.

Alex12
2007-11-30, 10:46 PM
Geh, replace Wizards with psions and Sorcerers with Wilders. Problems balancing arcane casters solved.
As for clerics/druids, make them choose between combat cleric/druid or spell cleric/druid.

Hyozo
2007-11-30, 10:47 PM
Removing the balance issues by removing the pathetic classes and weakening the good ones. It might work...


Clerics of non-war gods replaced by Cloistered Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)

I would think strength gods would have ordinary clerics as well.

Solo
2007-11-30, 10:48 PM
As I don't have the time, I'm not sure about what to do for non-core classes.

I admit reducing most clerics to cloistered clerics won't help the disparity a great deal, though the flavor would go better.

I will propose banning spells like Divine Power.



I would think strength gods would have ordinary clerics as well.

Ok, they're in too.


Geh, replace Wizards with psions and Sorcerers with Wilders. Problems balancing arcane casters solved.
As for clerics/druids, make them choose between combat cleric/druid or spell cleric/druid.

I will propose replacing wizard with psions, but I'm fine with Sorcerers. We need someone to cast arcane spells who isn't a bard.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-30, 10:59 PM
I'd suggest Pax Chi's Sublime Way monk as a monk fix - there simply isn't a way to bring monk up to the level of most of the others without resorting to a big alteration of the class, and it would fit in with the fighters et al being updated to warblades and such.

Solo
2007-11-30, 11:04 PM
I'd suggest Pax Chi's Sublime Way monk as a monk fix - there simply isn't a way to bring monk up to the level of most of the others without resorting to a big alteration of the class, and it would fit in with the fighters et al being updated to warblades and such.

I've never heard of this before. Is it in homebrew somewhere?


Edit: Found a "Fist of the Sublime Way" PrC for monks make by Pax, but that won't work. I'm trying to fix the base class.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-30, 11:13 PM
Homebrew, yep.

Pax Chi's is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29762). If that doesn't suit your fancy, perhaps Osari's variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29762), which gives them full BAB and a few other goodies?

EDIT: Bugger, fixed. Also, if you want a monk capable of going toe-to-toe with the average pure caster, take a look at Frank's monk, here: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=698. Frank's actually reworked most of the martial classes to be more in-tune with caster power in his 'Dungeonomicon' and 'Races of War' threads.

Solo
2007-11-30, 11:18 PM
Thanks, though you linked to MotSW twice.

Crow
2007-11-30, 11:31 PM
Limit wizards and sorcerers to one spell school. Once you try it, you'll wonder why you never did it before.

warning: Only works if you have a good number of splatboooks.

Solo
2007-11-30, 11:50 PM
Limit wizards and sorcerers to one spell school. Once you try it, you'll wonder why you never did it before.

warning: Only works if you have a good number of splatboooks.

Thanks for the advice, but ew.

MrNexx
2007-11-30, 11:58 PM
A thought I had.

Instead of making minimum casting stats equal to Spell level + 10, make minimum casting stat be attribute bonus = spell level.

Not a huge benefit, but it slows down the upper level spells. Upper-level slots can be used for metamagicked lower-level spells, but it becomes harder to whip out things like Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, etc. Lower-level spells (3rd, 4th, and even 5th level spells) aren't impossible to get. With high starting attributes and good items, you can get them off, but they're not something you can do unaided.

Reinboom
2007-12-01, 12:05 AM
Limit wizards and sorcerers to one spell school. Once you try it, you'll wonder why you never did it before.

warning: Only works if you have a good number of splatboooks.

1 trick ponies are disgusting insults of classes.
And a beguiler or warmage will forever outshine your sorcerers from then on.
You will also never see divination again.

Minimum of 2 schools, in my opinion. -minimum-. Dropping them down to 1 school would be... "why does this class even exist anymore?".

If you're going to cut schools, I would say... cut it down to 4, remove shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and move all the orb spells over to evocation.

This, however, is 'meh' to me as well...


A thought I had.

Instead of making minimum casting stats equal to Spell level + 10, make minimum casting stat be attribute bonus = spell level.

Not a huge benefit, but it slows down the upper level spells. Upper-level slots can be used for metamagicked lower-level spells, but it becomes harder to whip out things like Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, etc. Lower-level spells (3rd, 4th, and even 5th level spells) aren't impossible to get. With high starting attributes and good items, you can get them off, but they're not something you can do unaided.

18 int...
Level 9 = 5th level spells. So, +2 from stat bonuses, -and- they should get a +2 item by then (usually). So they are covered til level 7.
13 = +1 more from stat, and should have a +4 item by then. (covered til 8)
15 = 8. Should have a +6 item by then... covered til 9.
17 = 9, put the last stat in int at 16, 9th level spells are covered.

What this effectively does:
Annoys casters, by nerfing them in games where a base 18 to a stat isn't normal (but doesn't do much otherwise) or forces them to play a race with an int bonus. Thus forcing them into a pigeonhole where they only focus on their casting, since, they have -no- working room.

@ Frosty:
Which avatar? It changes randomly. Refresh (or click view image and keep reloading that) to see.

deadseashoals
2007-12-01, 12:12 AM
1 trick ponies are disgusting insults of classes.
And a beguiler or warmage will forever outshine your sorcerers from then on.
You will also never see divination again.

Minimum of 2 schools, in my opinion. -minimum-. Dropping them down to 1 school would be... "why does this class even exist anymore?".

If you're going to cut schools, I would say... cut it down to 4, remove shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and move all the orb spells over to evocation.

This, however, is 'meh' to me as well...

Yeah. One school is a thinly-veiled ban. If you want to do that in concept, but with a better execution, just ban sorcerers and wizards, and replace them with beguilers, warmages, and dread necromancers, and make up a few more for the remaining schools.

Frosty
2007-12-01, 12:14 AM
SweetRein I love your new avatar! :smallredface:

And yes, I would refuse to play a cater with access to anything less than 2 and a half schools. The warmage list and the beguiler list are examples of limited but not useless spell lists.

MrNexx
2007-12-01, 12:26 AM
What this effectively does:
Annoys casters, by nerfing them in games where a base 18 to a stat isn't normal (but doesn't do much otherwise) or forces them to play a race with an int bonus. Thus forcing them into a pigeonhole where they only focus on their casting, since, they have -no- working room.


I didn't bother to run the numbers; it seems less useful than I hoped.

greenknight
2007-12-01, 01:58 AM
Found a "Fist of the Sublime Way" PrC for monks make by Pax, but that won't work. I'm trying to fix the base class.

A relatively simple fix is to allow their Wisdom bonus to attack and damage, adding Air Walk (Su) at 8th level (replacing Slow Fall) 1 minute/class level, which can be used multiple times per day. Also modify Ki Strike by allowing it to give an actual enhancement bonus to attacks, up to +5 at level 20 (gains +1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20). Some or all of this bonus can be "traded in" for equivalent bonuses after 1 hour of meditation. You could probably put things on the list like attack as if using a cold iron (+1)/silver (+1)/adamantine weapon (+2), axiomatic/holy/unholy (as appropriate), ghost touch, elemental (cold, acid, fire, electric, sonic) and disruption. Oh, and give Tongue of Sun and Moon to high level Druids - they seem a more likely candidate for it than Monks anyway.

Dhavaer
2007-12-01, 02:07 AM
Would a gestalt monk/soulknife not suck compared to, say, a non-gestalt ranger or rogue?

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-01, 04:43 AM
It wouldn't be terrible, but it would have to stay unarmored for the monk bonuses, it would still only have 3/4ths BAB, and I don't think you can flurry with your mindblade.

There must be better monk gestalts out there.

Chronicled
2007-12-01, 05:52 AM
Sure there are. For simple better Monk gestalts, there's Monk//Druid, Monk//Cloistered Cleric, Monk (with the Int or Cha to AC instead of Wis feat)//Wizard or Sorcerer or Psion etc. All of these could be better off using something else instead of the Monk levels, though. Where Monk really shines in gestalt is as a 1 level dip in one of the best combinations (although why you'd need a party to help you, especially past level 5, becomes a very valid question):

Cloistered Cleric 1/Monk 1/Cloistered Cleric X/Cleric PrCs X//Druid 20

(Cloistered Cleric being used for the free Knowledge domain and 6 skill points/level, since the medium BAB and medium/heavy armor of a normal cleric are moot with the Druid and Monk levels.)


Anyways...
Solo, good list. I'd also make the cleric spells Divine Favor/Power and Righteous Might into touch spells, or remove them. Clerics will still be especially powerful as full spellcasters with the great selection of spells they have.

I also like the idea to replace wizards/sorcerers with psions. Psychic Warriors are good replacements for Fighters/Pallys if ToB isn't appreciated.

If more variety is wanted, the Binder class from Tome of Magic is balanced and interesting.

CthulhuM
2007-12-01, 06:11 AM
I rather like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53802) monk fix, simply because its a way of giving them a power boost without just turning them into swordsages.

That said, there's actually nothing wrong with turning monks into swordsages with the unarmed strike variant. If you're looking for a simple fix with minimal homebrewing, go with that.

I've implemented a somewhat harsh caster balancing rule in a campaign I'm running currently, but I think its effective - it allows spellcasters to retain their status as powerful combatants, but emphasizes the fact that they need other people to protect and support them (forgive the text block):


Spellcasting is a mentally, physically and spiritually draining experience. Anyone who casts a spell (or performs similarly intensive activities, such as manifesting a psionic power) puts great stress on their body and mind, and may find themselves temporarily weakened or worse by the effort. For convenience I will refer to this effect as Spell Fatigue.

Spell fatigue applies to casters of any class that grants 9th level spells or powers. Bards, psychic warriors, paladins, and similar classes are not affected.

Every time a spellcaster casts a spell (or a psionic character manifests a power), he must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + twice the level of the prepared spell or spell slot used (or 10 + power points spent) + the number of spells he has already cast in the current encounter. If he fails, he is fatigued for 1d6 minutes. If a spellcaster is already fatigued for any reason and fails this save, he is exhausted for 1d6 minutes (then fatigued for 1d6 more, or until his fatigue would normally expire, whichever is longer). If an exhausted spellcaster fails this save, he falls unconscious for 2d6 minutes after the spell is complete. Once the spellcaster wakes up, he is exhausted for 1d6 minutes and fatigued for 1d6 minutes after that (again, longer if the fatigue or exhaustion would normally have lasted longer), and sickened for 1d4 hours.

Fatigue, exhaustion, sleep and sickening caused by this feature may not be removed by any magical means. The spellcaster must simply wait and recover naturally.

Creatures that would normally be immune to any of these effects for any reason (immune to effects that require fort saves, immune to sleep, etc.) are not exempt from them. All spellcasters are vulnerable to spell fatigue, regardless of race, type or any other aspect of their character. Creatures without constitution scores, however, do gain a bonus on their saves equal to one third of their hit dice (rounded up).

Casting a spell from a scroll, wand or staff (or the psionic equivalents) does not trigger this effect.

Delta Nu Delta
2007-12-01, 08:59 AM
I think those look like great ideas overall. As a matter of fact, I'm doing almost the exact same thing myself in my upcoming campaign.

I am simply eliminating the monk, fighter, and paladin so I don't have to try to balance them. ToB classes are excellent replacements. Psionic warriors are nice options too.

I really like what you've done with sorcerers. I didn't give them extra feats or the metamagic, but I increased their skill list (big draw is Use Magic Device) and skill points.

As for more spells to limit, I am strongly encouraging people to stay as core as possible. Most stuff from the complete books is probably okay, but if something appears only in the spell compendium it's probably not (IMO that book sucked for balance.)

I am decreasing the duration of most "permanent" spells to 1 day/level. Permanent blindness from a level 2 spell is silly. I'm also greatly limiting teleport - it must be cast in a ritual, and then only at certain places of power. Dimension door still works fine. You could also consider bumping up some of the iconic spells like fly, invisibility and such up a level or two. It just delays casters abilities a bit longer so other classes have time to catch up.

Delta Nu Delta
2007-12-01, 11:33 AM
I had another idea for toning down casters that I'll throw out there.

Instead of simply making melee stronger, why not make it easier for other casters to counter each other?

For example, dispel magic would have 2 - 3 charges per casting. Each is discharged as a standard action. You get more bang for your buck dispelling or counterspelling.

I've always found it odd that the original caster received the edge in dispelling contests. It's almost always easier to unmake something than it is to make it. Perhaps you could give dispelling a slight bonus (13+ caster level)

I think this would help tone down casters as chunks of their power would be more easily countered, thus forcing them into a bit more resource management.

Snadgeros
2007-12-01, 12:31 PM
Okay, I still stand by the idea that monks don't suck, but they do have non-complementing abilities (flurry of blows and high movement). There are some quick fixes for this though. Make flurry a standard action, use WIS instead of STR for all attacks, and maybe give them full BAB. With dodge, mobility, and spring attack (three feats any monk should already have) you've got yourself a kickass character. He runs in and out of combat repeatedly, dealing multiple blows at a time. Guerilla warfare, if you will.

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-01, 12:46 PM
Fighter rebuild. (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/fighter)

Paladin rebuild (PDF). (http://www.libriumarcana.com/Uploads/Rogue/RebalancedPaladinNoPics.pdf)

Swashbuckler rebuild. (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/swashbuckler)

These bring the classes mentioned roughly in line with the Tome of Battle classes balance-wise. I highly recommend them all.

I also have a ranger rebuild (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64770) of my own design going in the Homebrew forum, but it's still in alpha testing, so I'm hesitant to offer it. (Feel free to go take a look, though.)

fuzzywolf
2007-12-01, 01:56 PM
I've also never thought that monks sucked . . .wierd. In my last campaign, we didn't have a "tank" per se -- ranger, warmage and monk for our melee. The monk had high scores in hide/move silently/spot/search. He acted like a rogue, and also provided backup damage.

Our homebrew rule for monks was that unarmed monk strikes could act as slashing, piercing or bludgeoning, whatever was best against that particular target. And ki-strike was an actual enhancement bonus.

It's easy enough for a DM to limit a cleric's spell list based on the deity worshipped, and to enforce some loose code of conduct on that cleric.

Melee problems are easily handled through itemization and the DM choosing monsters with more spell defenses.

It's not like we're writing an MMO, after all. There's a human mind behind every aspect of the game.