Lore: how do archfey, archdevils, demon lords, etc, match up to Gods?

[Odessa333]

Hi there!

I'm doing some lore digging, google searches galore into the various power levels of warlock patrons such as arch fey, ach devils, demon lords, a noble genie, etc and trying to get a sense of scale to the Faerun gods.

My primary interest that led to this was dealing with player back stories that involve Bahamut, Helm, Shar, and Selune of the Gods, and comparing them to beings like the Dark powers of the domain of dread, and archfey like Baba Yaga and Iggwilv/Tasha. The dark powers seems to be a dead end lore wise, being left vague/unknown on purpose as far as I can tell. Still, I find myself wondering how someone like Baba Yaga, mother of all witches, would fare power wise against Shar, who had made the shadow weave. Is it a fair comparison, or are archfey simply outclassed by the actual gods?

Obviously not looking for hard numbers or stat blocks here, and I know as DM I can simply say 'this is how it is.' Still, I want to be as accurate as possible so I'm doing my homework lol. If anyone has some thoughts/opinions to share, I'd love to hear from you! Thank you for your time.

[Kurt Kurageous]

"Match up" is not precise. Are you expecting some kind of royal rumble?

I think what you are asking is insight into the goals and motivations of each, and thus the conflicts that naturally arise when the goals of one conflict with another. That takes thoughtful consideration and research.

[Unoriginal]

Hi there!

I'm doing some lore digging, google searches galore into the various power levels of warlock patrons such as arch fey, ach devils, demon lords, a noble genie, etc and trying to get a sense of scale to the Faerun gods.

My primary interest that led to this was dealing with player back stories that involve Bahamut, Helm, Shar, and Selune of the Gods, and comparing them to beings like the Dark powers of the domain of dread, and archfey like Baba Yaga and Iggwilv/Tasha. The dark powers seems to be a dead end lore wise, being left vague/unknown on purpose as far as I can tell. Still, I find myself wondering how someone like Baba Yaga, mother of all witches, would fare power wise against Shar, who had made the shadow weave. Is it a fair comparison, or are archfey simply outclassed by the actual gods?

Obviously not looking for hard numbers or stat blocks here, and I know as DM I can simply say 'this is how it is.' Still, I want to be as accurate as possible so I'm doing my homework lol. If anyone has some thoughts/opinions to share, I'd love to hear from you! Thank you for your time.

D&D gods are a specific type of beings, not a level of power. There are weak gods just as there are strong gods.

What makes a god a god is a) the capacity to gain power by having mortals worship you b) the capacity to empower Clerics c) the fact you can only die if slain by an entity/item holding their own divine spark or if you lose all your mortal worshipers.

Do note that some gods are also Patrons for warlocks.

Also worth noting, many gods have a sort of ubiquity going on, which is to say for example there is a Corellon for Toril and there is a Corellon for Oerth. Both are Corellon,but that does not mean they have the same power or world influence or dominions. It is said that the main Drow god on Eberron is a little know servant of Lolth elsewhere.

The power of archfeys, Demon Princes, Archdevils, Great Old Ones and the like vary also widely within each category. Some Archdevils can be bullied by mid-levels adventurers, others are Asmodeus. Some archfeys are big spiders who like to spin tales, others are the embodiment of a whole season with thousands of lesser feys at their feet.

Now, all this to say, Shar is pretty much a Toril-only goddess, and far from the most worshiped one. She may outpower an archfey like Baba Yaga in a straight fight to the death if it happens on Toril, or at least outlast the mother of all hags, but neither would want such a fight and Baba Yaga has much more tricks and multi-world influences to call upon.

[Ionathus]

It's definitely a wide gulf in all directions if you ask me. Like you said, the lore and rulebooks keep things pretty open-ended (likely because the last thing they want to do is provoke more Batman v. Superman -style debates about which fictional character is the coooooooooolest (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?643469-Death-Battle-Season-9-We-re-Never-Getting-Galactus-vs-Unicron-Are-We)).

One of the sillier lore points to me in 5th edition is that a celestial warlock's patron can be a unicorn -- which is on average a CR 5 creature. Admittedly it has some cool powers, but that's a big discrepancy when your other patron could be an empyrean or solar.

One helpful way to reconcile these might be to sort the different supernatural godlike beings into domains - not cleric domains, but define where they have power. Archfey control the Feywild, etc. The question of "who's more powerful or has the most authority" then becomes kind of a moot point: it's like taking a star football player, a bestselling novelist, a chess Grandmaster, and an EGOT-winning performer and asking which one is "best" -- each one is at the apex of their specific field, but the comparisons don't even compute across the different fields.

Hence, they have no real reason to actually compete with one another directly, on a metaphysical level. They might butt heads, but they don't have any real stake in the game unless "their turf" is encroached upon. And then, almost always, they will easily defend their title.

That's one way to think about it, at least. But that's probably because I generally find the conflicts between godlike beings is much more interesting to your players if it's not a straight-up fistfight, because then your heroes aren't relegated to the roles of the human characters in a Godzilla movie.

[Odessa333]

No, I'm not expecting a godly royal rumble or anything. I'm less interested in who would win in a fight, and more if it would be a FAIR fight. Could a god vs an archfey ever be a close match, or is the archfey so hopefully outmatched JUST because their opponent would be god?


Really, I'm wondering if a strong arch fey, the dark powers, a noble genie, etc, are in the same league as gods. They have their followers, can give out powers, etc, so what makes this being an arch devil, and this one a god? Are they essentially the same, with the only difference a title or where their realm is located (nine hells, feywild, etc). Or is there something MORE to being called a literal god?

[Mastikator]

Archdevils and demon lords have about equivalent power level to the Empyrean which is a child of a god. So I expect that it would not be a fair fight.

Dunno about archfey, I have yet to see a single stat block for any archfey in 5e.

[Ionathus]

No, I'm not expecting a godly royal rumble or anything. I'm less interested in who would win in a fight, and more if it would be a FAIR fight. Could a god vs an archfey ever be a close match, or is the archfey so hopefully outmatched JUST because their opponent would be god?


Really, I'm wondering if a strong arch fey, the dark powers, a noble genie, etc, are in the same league as gods. They have their followers, can give out powers, etc, so what makes this being an arch devil, and this one a god? Are they essentially the same, with the only difference a title or where their realm is located (nine hells, feywild, etc). Or is there something MORE to being called a literal god?

I'm still falling back on my "football, chess, novelist, performer" analogy. It's not just apples to oranges, because those are both still fruit and you can still rank them on the same scales of taste, appearance, etc. This is more like comparing apples to metamorphic rocks to furniture varnishing techniques. The way you measure each one is so fundamentally different that there's no trying to compare them.

In my understanding of D&D, the gods and godlike beings can all interact and communicate and try to influence the world, but I don't think the concept of a "fair fight" even enters into the conversation when you compare two different types of being. Tiamat and Bahamut can square off all they like, because they're both the same "type" of god. But I don't think either one would want to go toe-to-toe with an Archfey, because that's a whole different aggravating can of worms and all the rules change as a result.

It would be like asking "will Oscar-winner Jessica Chastain beat Olympian Michael Phelps in today's spelling bee?" An interesting question for sure, but it doesn't really mean anything about either of their skillsets (or "power levels").

[Unoriginal]

To put things further in perspective:

Lolth is both an Archfey, a Demon Prince (with her own Abyssal layer and her own unique kind of demons), and the main goddess of one subspecies and one whole species.

While other Demon Princes are in Toril's Underdark and cut off from their own Abyssal layers, she can empower one of her priestesses enough to be a match against one Demon Prince.

Meanwhile, when they're all in the Abyss, she's not even considered among the top three Demon Princes.

[Slipjig]

Regarding the "unicorn-as-patron" thing: I don't know if it's official canon, but I think it was Erin M. Evans who suggested that what patrons do is provide a conduit to the power of an outer plane, rather than directly providing the power themselves. That explains why some relatively weak entities with planar ties (unicorns, cambions) can be a patron, while more powerful entities cannot.

[Odessa333]

I'm still falling back on my "football, chess, novelist, performer" analogy. It's not just apples to oranges, because those are both still fruit and you can still rank them on the same scales of taste, appearance, etc. This is more like comparing apples to metamorphic rocks to furniture varnishing techniques. The way you measure each one is so fundamentally different that there's no trying to compare them.

In my understanding of D&D, the gods and godlike beings can all interact and communicate and try to influence the world, but I don't think the concept of a "fair fight" even enters into the conversation when you compare two different types of being. Tiamat and Bahamut can square off all they like, because they're both the same "type" of god. But I don't think either one would want to go toe-to-toe with an Archfey, because that's a whole different aggravating can of worms and all the rules change as a result.

It would be like asking "will Oscar-winner Jessica Chastain beat Olympian Michael Phelps in today's spelling bee?" An interesting question for sure, but it doesn't really mean anything about either of their skillsets (or "power levels").


Perhaps, but in your football/spelling bee analogy, everyone involved is a human, so if you put them in a game where none had training, it would theoretically be a fair competition.

My own assumption going into this is that the various beings are close enough in scope to be compared. The weakest arch fey is not going to beat Mystra is a magic contest by any means, but not because Mystra is a god, but because she is the gold medal Olympic champion when it comes to magic. Still, I hate assuming things, so I'm trying to do a bit of fact checking while keeping an eye on this thread.

[tyckspoon]

This is essentially a world-building question, which means there is no singular correct answer, just answers for how your particular world works.. but as I understand the default, at least:

A god is a being that has influence or dominion over concepts, while archdevils, archfeys, exemplars of alignments, etc are usually sovereign over a single place or thing. That place can be very large and influential (entire notable planes, the demiplane of Ravenloft, etc) but ultimately the being's powerbase and center of influence is defined and restricted. Gods, in comparison, can develop influence in any part of the multiverse where the concept they represent is valued. So while a Lord of Hell is a Big Deal on their layer of the Nine Hells, Pelor is a Big Deal everywhere there are creatures that appreciate sunlight and healing (with the Bigness of the god's Deal primarily being limited by competition with other gods that deal in the same domains.)

Should a god and a different class of being come into direct conflict? Usually, the other being is going to win, at least initially, because the non-gods also tend to be a lot better actually directing their power to a specific goal. Gods are often depicted as being a step behind in this sort of thing, because they need to get directives down to their followers and let their own followers and lesser minions figure out how they're going to solve it. Archfey/devils/etc often have a lot more liberty to just grab their six best buddies or minions and go kick some heads in personally to get what they want done. (Settings where gods are allowed to do this tend to be more in the 'Gods are just really powerful Outsiders' camp, and there is much less distinction between a 'god' and other sorts of powerful planar beings there.)

[Unoriginal]

Perhaps, but in your football/spelling bee analogy, everyone involved is a human, so if you put them in a game where none had training, it would theoretically be a fair competition.

My own assumption going into this is that the various beings are close enough in scope to be compared. The weakest arch fey is not going to beat Mystra is a magic contest by any means, but not because Mystra is a god, but because she is the gold medal Olympic champion when it comes to magic. Still, I hate assuming things, so I'm trying to do a bit of fact checking while keeping an eye on this thread.

Another example (Warning: spoilers for Descent into Avernus):

One situation that can be encountered in the module is the PCs coming accross a man who tried to contact a god using a holy item, not knowing the item had recently been hijacked by the Demon Prince Baphomet.

As a result, the god and Baphomet are engagingin a spiritual battle for this man.

Now, the god isn't weak on his home world, and the man is a true believerin at least some of the god's portfolio, but the battle is taking place in a location where the god has next to 0 influence, while Baphomet not only has *some* influence in this location, he also is present in the flesh pretty close of said location.

This makes the god and Baphomet evenly matched as they wrestle for this man, and the struggle is killing him.

[Naanomi]

What is true is that some of the Patrons have way more Planar/Political influence than nearly any God. Asmodeus' position as leader of Baator and lord of the legions of the 9 hells is a way more *important* cosmological position than his status as one of many Gods of Evil; which is a decent power-boost but not all that unique or influential in the grander scheme of things

[MutantDragon]

So, to throw my hat into the ring, it depends on your definition of "god". But, before I get into that, let's get some things straight. From officially published materials, Archdevils range from CR 16 all the way to CR 26. Demon Lords range from CR 23 to CR 26. And, of course, our only official Archfey stats, to my knowledge, are for Tasha/Iggwilv at CR 20. So, we'll just group them all together and say they range from CR 16 to CR 26 with the average being in the low 20s. Ok, so, back to what I was saying before on how you define deities. First, ask yourself if you consider quasi-deities to be deities. If you do, then some demigods could be as low as CR 0, in which case any of those CR 20ish fey or fiends could easily take them out. Now, vestiges don't have official stats in 5e, so we're left to guess. I, personally, peg them as on par with titans. Now, titans we do have stats for. They range from CR 13 all the way to CR 30. The average, however, seems in line with that low 20s estimate from earlier. So, a titan and an archfey could have a fairly even fight. Past that, though, deities become a lot tougher. Technically, Tiamat does have CR 30 stats, but that's wildly inconsistent with everything else in 5e, such as Tiamat's glorified avatar also being CR 30. I choose to believe those stats represent Tiamat in a "mortal" form, which is also the only way to rationalize Ao not slapping her back down when she starts rampaging across the material plane. So how powerful is she really? Far, far beyond CR 30. And she's a lesser deity. To use your earlier example of Shar vs Baba Yaga, you're. pitting a CR 20ish fey against a greater deity, one of the most powerful in the Forgotten Realms. So, no, that wouldn't be a particularly even fight. Technically, Empyreans are recommended as avatars for deities in the artifact section of the DMG, and, as I said before, Tiamat and Bahamut have CR 30 avatars, though they're not technically referred to as such. So, an Avatar ranges from CR 23 to CR 30. So, the avatar of a deity might be a good fight for an Archfey or Archfiend.

[Unoriginal]

What is true is that some of the Patrons have way more Planar/Political influence than nearly any God. Asmodeus' position as leader of Baator and lord of the legions of the 9 hells is a way more *important* cosmological position than his status as one of many Gods of Evil; which is a decent power-boost but not all that unique or influential in the grander scheme of things

Quite true.

Even if we take into account how Asmodeus gets empowered by every single instance of devil worship in the multiverse, his position as the guy in charge of where most lawful evil souls ends up bring him considerably more cosmological influence.

We just need to look at how Tiamat is several weight categories above Master Baator in term of evil godhood to confirm that.

[Naanomi]

Quite true.
In fact, in 2e material becoming a God was a liability that several powerful cosmic beings had active plans in place to *avoid*; seeing the personal power boost as not worth the added limitations... Orcus' quest for divinity was explicitly a risky power-play because he couldn't stand up to Demogorgon on his own might

[MutantDragon]

So, to throw my hat into the ring, it depends on your definition of "god". But, before I get into that, let's get some things straight. From officially published materials, Archdevils range from CR 16 all the way to CR 26. Demon Lords range from CR 23 to CR 26. And, of course, our only official Archfey stats, to my knowledge, are for Tasha/Iggwilv at CR 20. So, we'll just group them all together and say they range from CR 16 to CR 26 with the average being in the low 20s. Ok, so, back to what I was saying before on how you define deities. First, ask yourself if you consider quasi-deities to be deities. If you do, then some demigods could be as low as CR 0, in which case any of those CR 20ish fey or fiends could easily take them out. Now, vestiges don't have official stats in 5e, so we're left to guess. I, personally, peg them as on par with titans. Now, titans we do have stats for. They range from CR 13 all the way to CR 30. The average, however, seems in line with that low 20s estimate from earlier. So, a titan and an archway could have a fairly even fight. Past that, though, deities become a lot tougher. Technically, Tiamat does have CR 30 stats, but that's wildly inconsistent with everything else in 5e, such as Tiamat's glorified avatar also being CR 30. I choose to believe those stats represent Tiamat in a "mortal" form, which is also the only way to rationalize Ao not slapping her back down when she starts rampaging across the material plane. So how powerful is she really? Far, far beyond CR 30. And she's a lesser deity. To use your earlier example of Shar vs Baba Yaga, you're. pitting a CR 20ish fey against a greater deity, one of the most powerful in the Forgotten Realms. So, no, that wouldn't be a particularly even fight. Technically, Empyreans are recommended as avatars for deities in the artifact section of the DMG, and, as I said before, Tiamat and Bahamut have CR 30 avatars, though they're not technically referred to as such. So, an Avatar ranges from CR 23 to CR 30. So, the avatar of a deity might be a good fight for an Archfey or Archfiend.

I’d like to amend this with the following statements. This is a break down of theoretical power scaling. As others have said, the nature and circumstances of the contest are key. Fraz’urb’lu (I really hope I spelled that right) is the demon lord of deception. Tyr is the god of justice. Who do you think is better at poker? And even a direct power on power contest depends upon the circumstances, as these beings are often more metaphorical concepts than physical entities. Bahamut is a fully fledged deity, but he’s probably not able to save a soul from being dragged into the Nine Hells after its owner made a deal with Hutajin. It’s all about their respective niche in the cosmic order.

[Bohandas]

archfiends and such seem to have much weaker abilities than deities but their influence covers a much larger area. Asmodeus and Demogorgon are known throughout the material plane, whereas many of the gods are limited to one nation on one continent. (And the pattern continues from there, the Lady of Pain, who is said to be more powerful than the gods, excercises power over a single modestly sized city)

[Unoriginal]

In fact, in 2e material becoming a God was a liability that several powerful cosmic beings had active plans in place to *avoid*; seeing the personal power boost as not worth the added limitations... Orcus' quest for divinity was explicitly a risky power-play because he couldn't stand up to Demogorgon on his own might

Still a thing in 5e, in many ways.

Acererak is noted as being able to kill gods and create gods, but always avoids becoming one himself.

[Rafaelfras]

Toril has gods of all kinds of power ranging from weak local demigods to major deities. Some archfey like Titania and Verenestra are goddesses themselves, Titania being considered a greater goddess by the time of 2e. Bahamut and Helm are powerful gods who have great influence, and I think they both are a tad above any fey and almost all fiends. Bahamut on other settings is more important like in dragon lance, but in Forgotten Realms both he and Tiamat where considered lesser gods by 3e.
Helm died and came back sharing with Tyr and Thorn the themes of knighthood vigilance justice etc. With Helm being the watcher.
Now Selune and Shar are the biggest fishes on the block. They both are referred in some myth as the first deities and direct responsables for the creation of not only the world of Toril but also many many other deities the most prominent Mystril the goddess of magic. Selune power has variated "like the phases of the moon" from demi god the greater goddess, but regardless she and Shar are as big as a god can be speaking about Toril and both are diminished comparing to what they where

[Zevox]

If we're just trying to gauge DBZ-esque "power levels" here, my impression would be that most Gods would be a step above even the most powerful non-deity beings like Archdevils or Archfey. Demigods might be more on their level, but greater deities like Selune, Shar, and the others you mentioned would generally outclass them, at least by default. There's a lot of situational elements to consider if a fight actually happens though, such as whether you're dealing a god's Avatar/Aspect, or their full might, where the fight is taking place, and so on that others have mentioned, and there's plenty of reasons they wouldn't want to tangle with each other in general. For just a broad strokes answer though, you can probably generally assume any notable god has a higher degree of individual power than most other such beings.