Beer mugs as weapons in a tavern brawl

[Jay R]

I'm a new DM to 3.5e, and I'm finding all kinds of questions I never had to deal with as a player, just because they didn't matter to my characters.

There will probably be tavern brawls in my next session, and the most common attack in a brawl is with a pewter mug. I can't figure out how to handle it, since it should clearly be more effective than a fist (1d3 non-lethal) and less effective than a dagger (1d4).

[It's better than a fist, or nobody would ever use it. It's worse than a dagger, or people would carry it instead of a dagger.]

Obviously, the mug is improvised, and is at -4 by the rules, , but once you know how to grasp it, how is it any harder to wield than a fist?

I've considered saying it's an armored fist, with no -4 penalty and doing either 1d3, or 1d4 non-lethal.

But I can't be the first one to deal with this. What answers have you come up with?

[ShurikVch]

In Complete Warrior, there is Table 4–7: Improvised Weapon Damage, which includes "Mug" in the very first line - it do 1d3 damage (presumably bludgeoning - unless the mug is sharpened or spiked :smallamused:)

[Elvensilver]

Does it list a range increment for throwing them?
I remember reading about a study on the use of mugs in brawls (on the Oktoberfest, so likely clay mugs) and it reported them getting used as a thrown weapon, too.

[Jay R]

In Complete Warrior, there is Table 4–7: Improvised Weapon Damage, which includes "Mug" in the very first line - it do 1d3 damage (presumably bludgeoning - unless the mug is sharpened or spiked :smallamused:)

Thanks for the reference, but that doesn't pass the minimum reasonability test. By the rules, nobody should ever use a mug (unless they want to kill). To defeat an opponent, a brawler should drop the mug, since a fist does just as much damage and hits 20% more often. This defies reality. [Yes, I know. It's a simulation, and a fantasy game. But we're not talking about magic here -- just the simple question of whether it's better to hit somebody with a big piece of metal or with a fist.]

This does put my question in focus, though. Does this anomaly bother anybody else?

[Metastachydium]

I mean,
Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons) not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Emphases mine. I think gauntlet works as a point of comparison: it's 1d3, but lethal damage. One needs a whole feat to do that with a fist (and to be considered armed while fighting with a fist (and then we're still ignoring the little fact that by RAW, people are not automatically proficient with their fists and therefore may have a -4 on attack rolls anyway)).

[spectralphoenix]

Also, attacking unarmed without IAS provokes an attack of opportunity, while attacking with an improvised weapon does not. So assuming no relevant feats, someone with a mug fighting someone without will get to attack twice as often.

[Jay R]

Thanks for all the help. I'm learning more from everyone who's replied – even from the people whose answers I question. [Sometimes especially from the people whose answers I question.]


This Is Literally Covered in the SRD!

Yes, I know. I even cited the rules.
"Obviously, the mug is improvised, and is at -4 by the rules, , but once you know how to grasp it, how is it any harder to wield than a fist?"

I was questioning the reasonability of what it said.


I think gauntlet works as a point of comparison: it's 1d3, but lethal damage. One needs a whole feat to do that with a fist (and to be considered armed while fighting with a fist ...

Nobody in a tavern brawl cares, do they? Same number of points of damage until they're unconscious, right? If anything, the brawler doesn't want to kill.


... (and then we're still ignoring the little fact that by RAW, people are not automatically proficient with their fists and therefore may have a -4 on attack rolls anyway)).

OK, I'll bite. Who isn't proficient with a fist (who might get in a bar fight anyway)? Wizards and commoners aren't, but even sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons.

Wizards should avoid brawls. It's true that commoners aren't (necessarily) proficient with a fist, but they also aren't usually the kind of challenge I send after PCs.


Also, attacking unarmed without IAS provokes an attack of opportunity, while attacking with an improvised weapon does not. So assuming no relevant feats, someone with a mug fighting someone without will get to attack twice as often.

Thank you. This is a crucial fact I was missing. Yes, that makes fighting with a mug better than a fist.

So a fist hits 20% more often (for everyone but wizards and commoners), but each punch draws an attack of opportunity, and does non-lethal damage. Does that cover all the differences?

Thanks again to everybody for all the help.

[Metastachydium]

Yes, I know. I even cited the rules.
"Obviously, the mug is improvised, and is at -4 by the rules, , but once you know how to grasp it, how is it any harder to wield than a fist?"

I was questioning the reasonability of what it said.

You misunderstand. I was highlighting the "pick the weapon you deem most similar and run with it" plus the "improvised weapons have a 10' ranged increment if throwable".


OK, I'll bite. Who isn't proficient with a fist (who might get in a bar fight anyway)? Wizards and commoners aren't, but even sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons.

[With a completely straight face.] Druids, urban druids, psions/erudites, spirit shamans and death masters.


Wizards should avoid brawls.

I once made a skum wizard NPC for something. Wasn't the kind of guy one should want to brawl with.


It's true that commoners aren't (necessarily) proficient with a fist, but they also aren't usually the kind of challenge I send after PCs.

They are fun as goldfish poop filler in a bar fight, though. Plus, there's a lot of them everywhere. It was a safe assumption to make there will be a few around, okay?


This is a crucial fact I was missing.

(Incidentally, it's also exactly what the whole "you are not considered armed" deal I pointed out means. That's what I get for not being verbose enough, I suppose.)

[ShurikVch]

"Obviously, the mug is improvised, and is at -4 by the rules, , but once you know how to grasp it, how is it any harder to wield than a fist?"

I was questioning the reasonability of what it said.
Moreover - if character even was, somehow, proficient in using mugs as a weapon (there are few ways) - they would still get nonproficiency penalty if the mug in question made of Alchemical Gold (or Platinum) - because it would make the mug into Exotic Weapon, despite being exactly the same shape (although does 1d4 damage).


So a fist hits 20% more often (for everyone but wizards and commoners)
FWIW, Druid (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) isn't proficient in Unarmed Strike too
(And insert joke about Monks (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) there)

[Thurbane]

Not really related to what the OP was asking, but this is a chance to mention one of my fave magi items: War Mug of the Ogre Magi (Dragon Compendium p.143). A magic flagon that never spells it's contents, but more importantly, strikes as a +2 magic weapon dealing 1d6+2 nonlethal damage.