Observant fighter

[vasilidor]

With spot and listen being cross class skills for the fighter, how high can we crank them up without multiclassing or using outlandish races (outlandish being defined as anything beyond a +1 to level adjustment).
I think a good start would be an Aasimar for a +2 to wisdom, with an 18 for base. and of course we max out our ranks for the skills and take the alertness feat and skill focus for each of the skills, but what else can we do? I know eagle eyes are a thing...

[pabelfly]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills

There are ways to get additional class skills, and using some spare feats to round out your character is something you should probably be doing as a Fighter if you can manage it.

[Particle_Man]

I guess Generic Warrior just won't cut it for you, huh? :smallsmile:

[vasilidor]

I am aware of, but not interested in, the generic warrior for this bit o theory crafting.
About the only thing off that list that was provided for Spot and Listen that can apply to fighters is cosmopolitan. Can it be taken more than once?

[ShurikVch]

Several variants of Fighter class from Dragon #310 (namely: Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, and Pugilist) are all get Spot as class skill

Listen can be gained via feat combination of Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage (Blue, Brown, Fang, or Pyroclastic)

[Rebel7284]

Thug Figher from UA gets 4 skill points per level. You can either get class skills from feats/dragon magazine ACFs as pointed out above OR just take Able Learner and a good Wisdom score and you'll be okay-ish.

[Biggus]

There's a list of magic items which grant bonuses to Spot checks here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/46849/items-to-enhance-spot-checks

[vasilidor]

What I have got thus far: Aasimar, wis 20, Cosmopolitan (Listen) as level 1 feat, Cosmopolitan (Spot) level 3 feat, Alertness at level 6, Skill focus (Listen) at level 9, Skill Focus (spot) at level 12. Unless the 3.0 version of cosmopolitan would be unavailable, then we take able learner at level 1. Why isn't there a "take feat, gain class skill" in 3.5? Not like it would be unbalanced in any way and would be a nice thing for martials. May have just answered my own question.

[vasilidor]

As competence bonuses do not stack, we will take whichever is best allowed via wealth by level.

[pabelfly]

I am aware of, but not interested in, the generic warrior for this bit o theory crafting.
About the only thing off that list that was provided for Spot and Listen that can apply to fighters is cosmopolitan. Can it be taken more than once?

Skill Prodigy is 3.5 material and gives you class skills equal to your INT mod each time you take it. I'd probably take this one for theorycrafting purposes. There are other feats that will give you either or both skills though.



I'm picking Owl for minmaxing purposes. For LA 1, it comes with +8 racial bonus to Listen and a +8 to Spot in areas of shadowy illumination (which I imagine would come up fairly often), and a +6 to WIS. I'm assuming we have 14 INT and 24 WIS, the rest of our rolls/point buy go to support whatever combat style we want to run.

1: Skill Prodigy (Spot and Listen) Listen 19 (4 ranks + 8 Racial bonus + 7 WIS) Spot 11 (4 ranks + 7 WIS) (+8 circumstantial bonus)
F1: Thug Fighter Variant
F2
3: Alertness (Listen 24, Spot at 16)
4: WIS +1
F4
F6
6: Skill Focus: Spot (Listen 27, Spot 22)
8: WIS +1 (Spot 30, Listen 25)
F8:
9: Skill Focus: Listen (Listen 31, Spot 23)

I'm not sure what other feats would improve Spot, let alone improve it most efficiently but I think that's a good starting point for our theorycrafting.

[Biggus]

As competence bonuses do not stack, we will take whichever is best allowed via wealth by level.

There are quite a few items on that list which give bonus types other than competence.

[bean illus]

Skill Prodigy is 3.5 material and gives you class skills equal to your INT mod each time you take it.


? Are we talking about Skill Knowledge in UA?
_______

To be truly observant and be a fighter, you might want to check your perceptions twice as often, while retaining your move action.



Quick Reconnoiter [General]

Prerequisite
Listen 5 ranks, Spot 5 ranks,

Benefit
You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action. You also gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks.

Normal
Using Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action.
Quick recon gives you two move equivalent actions, something that can't even be done normally, even by a sentry, as a free action.
Two move equivalents, even while moving full speed, full attacking, distracted, etc.


Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner (for example, when someone tries to sneak past you while hidden, or you move into a new area), you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

This implies that if a sniper is hidden well, you may only get one chance to spot him with a reactive check. With quick recon you get another check as an active check (as a free action), and repeated free checks on every round.

Spot has similar wording, and you get only one chance to hear that low hum, or small drip, or footsteps. Now you get many. Apparently even while asleep.

The +2 initiative is nice, and stacks with improved initiative, which a fighter can use. Obviously, being observant but last isn't nearly as useful.

[pabelfly]

? Are we talking about Skill Knowledge in UA?

Skill Prodigy is from Kingdoms of Kamalur and due to a legal dispute, an agreement was reached which technically makes KoK first-party 3.5.

[bean illus]

Skill Prodigy is from Kingdoms of Kamalur and due to a legal dispute, an agreement was reached which technically makes KoK first-party 3.5.

Ah, yeah. Well if that's unavailable ...


Skill Knowledge [General]
Prerequisite
Benefit
Choose any two skills from one of your current classes' skill lists. You now know these skills as class skills.

Special
Instead of choosing two class skills, you may choose one cross-class skill (whether you already know it or not) and learn it, treating it as a class skill from that point forward.

[bean illus]

Skill
I'm picking Owl for minmaxing purposes. For LA 1, it comes with +8 racial bonus to Listen and a +8 to Spot in areas of shadowy illumination (which I imagine would come up fairly often), and a +6 to WIS. I'm assuming we have 14 INT and 24 WIS,

1: Skill Prodigy (Spot and Listen) Listen 19 (4 ranks + 8 Racial bonus + 7 WIS) Spot 11 (4 ranks + 7 WIS) (+8 circumstantial bonus)
F1: Thug Fighter Variant
F2
3: Alertness (Listen 24, Spot at 16)
4: WIS +1
F4
F6
6: Skill Focus: Spot (Listen 27, Spot 22)
8: WIS +1 (Spot 30, Listen 25)
F8:
9: Skill Focus: Listen (Listen 31, Spot 23)


I don't understand what happened here (in bold). Why does listen go down 2, but spot goes up 8, in 2 levels?

*Skill Focus is obvious, but I'd much rather squeeze in Quick Reconnoiter, asap.

[Doctor Despair]

Don't forget about Keen-Eared Scout! Great for someone investing in Listen

[JNAProductions]

I don't understand what happened here (in bold). Why does listen go down 2, but spot goes up 8, in 2 levels?

*Skill Focus is obvious, but I'd much rather squeeze in Quick Reconnoiter, asap.

They probably just switched the skill names by mistake.

[bean illus]

Don't forget about Keen-Eared Scout! Great for someone investing in Listen

I usually skip thinking of keen eared scout, partly due to it's prerequisites; Alertness (PH) [b)(or)[/b], Skill Focus (PH) (Listen), Listen 6 ranks. In this case it fits well. I'd probably take is before Skill Focus.

Keen eared scout works great with quick recon, since it seems you could make multiple checks each round.

These phrases sound cheesy:


If you beat the DC by 15 or more, you determine the type of armor the creature wears and what it carries, if anything.

If you beat the DC by 20 or more, you learn the creature's type and subtypes.

'Hey, there're 3 giants at the end of the path walking this way. They'll be here in 2 minutes. They have lot's of gold, and a magic axe, and an undead animal'.

A creature rolling +30 Listen twice per round is going to beat a lot of DCs by 20

[pabelfly]

They probably just switched the skill names by mistake.

Yeah, this.

[ericgrau]

A 1 level dip boosts your max ranks to the same as a single classed character but you still have to pay double for points during fighter levels. Making your first level the cross class level can help a lot.

Eyes of the eagle give a +5 spot bonus for 2500 gp without getting into custom items. But I think unlike some other abusive or nonsensical custom skill items it's pretty reasonable to ask your DM for custom items for both spot and listen. Call listen helmet of the bat and style it up with metal bat ears. Or something like that.