Increasing Spell Save DC?

[TheNerfGuy]

Is there a way to increase the DC of a spell you are casting on an opponent?

As we know, Spell Save DCs work as follows: 8 + Proficiency + Spellcasting stat modifier.

In my case, I'm a Lv6 Wizard with 18 INT. So, 8 + 3 + 4 = 15.

Are there magic items out there that can increase Save DCs for spells? If there are, what price would they be?

[KorvinStarmast]

Is there a way to increase the DC of a spell you are casting on an opponent?

As we know, Spell Save DCs work as follows: 8 + Proficiency + Spellcasting stat modifier.

In my case, I'm a Lv6 Wizard with 18 INT. So, 8 + 3 + 4 = 15.

Are there magic items out there that can increase Save DCs for spells? If there are, what price would they be? If you can use stuff from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, the following items may be in the game at the discretion of your DM.

Arcane Grimoire +1 (Uncommon Item)
Arcane Grimoire +2 (Rare Item)
Arcane Grimoure +3 (Very Rare item)

IMO, they ought to be rare, very rare, and legendary, but that's just me.

There is also the Robe of the Archmagi (legendary) that gives +2 ... it's in the DMG.

As to the price, this isn't a video game where you can go to a magic shop; if you want to trade for one or buy one, discuss with your DM on whether or not it is even available. (And at level 8, add 2 to your INT for a 16, then at level 9 your proficiency bonus is +4 so you'll have DC 17).

[Chaos Jackal]

Is there a way to increase the DC of a spell you are casting on an opponent?

As we know, Spell Save DCs work as follows: 8 + Proficiency + Spellcasting stat modifier.

In my case, I'm a Lv6 Wizard with 18 INT. So, 8 + 3 + 4 = 15.

Are there magic items out there that can increase Save DCs for spells? If there are, what price would they be?

There are items, yes. There's an ioun stone that gives a proficiency bonus (I believe it was Mastery) as well as straight DC bonus stuff, namely the All-Purpose Tool, Arcane Grimoire, Amulet of the Devout, Bloodwell Vial, Moon Sickle, Rhythm-Maker's Drum, Rod of the Pact Keeper and Robe of the Archmagi. Most of the aforementioned items are in TCE (the stone, rod and robe are DMG) and are also class-specific (except for the stone and robe). For your wizard in particular, the class-specific item is the Arcane Grimoire.

Regarding prices, that's not something with a straight answer. The DMG and XGE have guidelines for the prices of magic items based on rarity, but each book has different guidelines and instead of specific prices they use ranges, and rather big ones at that, owing to 5e's primary guideline of magic items not being for sale (which is irrelevant to it "not being a video game", magic item shops and fixed prices have been a thing in D&D for a while in the past). So if your world has magic shops (perfectly reasonable), the price of such items would depend greatly on the economy of the setting, the amount of gold the players can get and how much power the DM wants them to have. You can use the price range suggestions from the DMG (pg135) or XGE (pg126 and 133) if they suit the game world you're in, or you (or your DM) can assign them prices more fitting to that.

[Bobthewizard]

Also the Tomb of Clear Thought. If you can find 5 of them, I think you can get your Int up to 30.

[Amnestic]

As to the price, this isn't a video game where you can go to a magic shop;

Except when it very much is a game that has magic item shops, as it is in a number of official 5e settings including (but not limited to) FR, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandria, and Ravnica. Not super familiar with Spelljammer but guessing there's probably some magic item shops knocking around there too.

[Spo]

There is also the meta-magic option where opponents get disadvantage on their spell DC saves. You can get that through either a dip into sorcerer or the feat that gives you meta-magic (although can’t recall if the feat provides enough points for that option.

[Mastikator]

Also the Tomb of Clear Thought. If you can find 5 of them, I think you can get your Int up to 30.

Alternatively find one and wait 100 years between uses. Sequester yourself would do the trick.

[Tanarii]

IMO, they ought to be rare, very rare, and legendary, but that's just me.
Increasing spell save DC should have been restricted to Artifacts, but that's just me.


Except when it very much is a game that has magic item shops, as it is in a number of official 5e settings including (but not limited to) FR, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandria, and Ravnica. Not super familiar with Spelljammer but guessing there's probably some magic item shops knocking around there too.
5e doesn't have any real True Scotsman campaign setting products, calling them "official 5e settings" is a bit heavy.

And FR at least doesn't have magic item "shops" unless you take a bunch of time to leave adventuring areas and travel to the very largest cities. And even then they're likely to be like Auction Houses, not general goods stores.

[Amnestic]

5e doesn't have any real True Scotsman campaign setting products, calling them "official 5e settings" is a bit heavy.

Not really? "Official setting" means a setting with an official (i.e. not 3rd party) book, be it an adventure or setting book (or both, in FR/Exandria's case).

What other term is appropriate? They're officially supported 1st party settings.




And FR at least doesn't have magic item "shops" unless you take a bunch of time to leave adventuring areas and travel to the very largest cities. And even then they're likely to be like Auction Houses, not general goods stores.

One of the adventures in FR literally starts in Baldur's Gate.
Another one is entirely set in Waterdeep.

It is entirely reasonable for players to go to a big city or even spend their entire time there. Urban adventures are not unusual, especially in the modern era of play.

If we're meant to accept that a city with a population of 20000 has a magic item shop (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Shining_Sword) but that Waterdeep with its 1.5-2 million and Baldur's Gate with its Sorcerous Sundries doesn't then idk what to tell you dude.

One of Thay's listed exports is 'magic items'. Someone's gotta be buying them somewhere. Probably from...a shop.

[Mastikator]

Except when it very much is a game that has magic item shops, as it is in a number of official 5e settings including (but not limited to) FR, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandria, and Ravnica. Not super familiar with Spelljammer but guessing there's probably some magic item shops knocking around there too.

The DMG even explicitly says that at the DM's discretion there can be magic item shops that would work in the same fashion of real world fine arts markets. Some rando can't enter a shop, grab a +1 longsword and try to run off with it. But it's definitely for sale at the DM's discretion.

On the flip side a DM that says no to all magic item trading is basically saying any amount of gold above 2k is meaningless. There's nothing useful for an adventurer to buy with 300 platinum pieces once they have a plate armor. It also means that treasure rapidly becomes worthless. It's virtually impossible to run a long campaign that goes beyond T1 without including some option for buying and selling uncommon+ magic items. (personally I'm a fan of the sane magic price list for magic items, rather than rarity. Whoever decided that winged boots are less valuable than sovereign glue needs to have their head checked.)

[TheNerfGuy]

I primarily asked about potential magic item prices since I assumed there would be magic shops in the game world. Mine does, but so far, everything is well out of the group's budget.

[KorvinStarmast]

Except when it very much is a game that has magic item shops, as it is in a number of official 5e settings including (but not limited to) FR, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandria, and Ravnica. Not super familiar with Spelljammer but guessing there's probably some magic item shops knocking around there too. Nope. But, in your defense, you can trade or earn credits for particular items in Adventuerer's League games.

I primarily asked about potential magic item prices since I assumed there would be magic shops in the game world. Mine does, but so far, everything is well out of the group's budget. You are having a conversation with the wrong people. Discuss with your DM. :smallwink:

[Mastikator]

Besides what has been mentioned, Ioun Stone of Mastery raises your proficiency bonus by 1, thus +1 to spell DC. It's legendary, the price would probably be 100k gold.

Amulet of the devout adds up to +3 to your spell DCs, it requires attunement by clerics or paladins, but the item itself makes no mention of being restricted to class spells. Thus a multiclass wizard/cleric could have both a amulet of the devout +3, an arcane grimoire +3 and an archmage robe. All giving a cumulative bonus of +8 to your spell DC and spell attack rolls. At level 6 with 18 int that would add up to 23. Sadly you can't get to 24 with the ioun stone of mastery, all items I mention require attunement slots. You'd need a whooping 10 levels of artificer to get your 4th attunement slot.

23 is pretty insane though.

[TheNerfGuy]

You are having a conversation with the wrong people. Discuss with your DM. :smallwink:

To be fair, the main point of this thread is finding a means of increasing Spell Save DCs outside of Proficiency and the stat mod. That was what I was inquiring about.

[LudicSavant]

Is there a way to increase the DC of a spell you are casting on an opponent?


Yes.


Are there magic items out there that can increase Save DCs for spells?
Yes.


If there are, what price would they be?

Whatever price the DM sets -- if they're even available for a price at all. Guidelines for setting such prices can be found in the DMG or XGtE, and are generally based on the item's rarity. So for example an Amulet of the Devout +1 would be priced as an Uncommon item, but an Amulet of the Devout +3 would be priced as a Very Rare.

[Unoriginal]

I think pretty much every straightforward ways have been mentioned already, but I'll just mention that you can also improve the chances of success of your save spells by temporarily (or as long as you have the item) improving your casting stat (not really an option for your PC since they're a 18 INT wizard), debuffing the stat your opponent will use in their save (ex: Feeblemind + spell targetting INT or CHA combo), or by imposing disadvantage on the relevant save.

[kazaryu]

Except when it very much is a game that has magic item shops, as it is in a number of official 5e settings including (but not limited to) FR, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandria, and Ravnica. Not super familiar with Spelljammer but guessing there's probably some magic item shops knocking around there too.

pretty sure they meant in terms of 'its not a video game where you can just google the price of shop items, since every DM runs their world differently'. not that noone has magic item shops.

[sambojin]

Just for a ballpark, Adventurer League rules state that if you start at level 5 in a campaign (or reroll/edit your character then, for Tier 1 -> Tier 2 changeover/I didn't like that character), you can start with a +1 Moon Sickle or something as one of your options.

Here's the list:
+1 weapon •
+1 shield •
+1 rod of the pact keeper •
+1 wand of the war mage •
+1 all-purpose tool (TCE) •
+1 amulet of the devout (TCE) •
+1 arcane grimoire (TCE) •
+1 bloodwell vial (TCE) •
+1 dragonhide belt (FTD) •
+1 moon sickle (TCE) •
+1 rhythm-maker’s drum (TCE) •
Bag of holding

So it's sort-of intended for wider play for you to have some sort of magic item by lvl5, and this includes items that give +1DC to your class spells. They certainly do say +1 to "these class/es" spells though, so it'd require a pretty specific multiclass to get it for two lists. But yeah, magic items that give +1DC to spells are uncommoningly common in lvl5+ AL play.
(Or a magic weapon or shield or storage essentially. The Moon Sickle, while being a pretty bad weapon, does double duty as a +1 magic light weapon and a +1DC casting focus, with a small healing buff as well. And you can just start with it at lvl5 in AL). They're all very powerful for their respective classes, even more-so for casting classes, but apparently that's entirely intended. I'm don't really agree that it's a *good thing*, but that's 1st party official by-the-book AL for you. Even monks get a cool item though, so that's nice :)

So, by lvl5, at least one uncommon magic item is sorta expected in AL, as a general rule of thumb. And casters get the best ones. You could probably give pure martials and 1/3rd casters "any uncommon item" on top of this to help them keep up, because while a magic weapon or +1AC is nice, it's not nearly as nice as +5 sorcery points, or a free divinity use, or something like that each day, on top of +1DC to spells (or just having a really bad magic weapon that helps heals as well as +DC).


((An any Druid 4/ Life Cleric 1/ Druid X build is pretty funny to run with a +1 Moon Sickle as a starter item at lvl5. Best Goodberries, and insane spot heals, and summons/ conjures later on too. Start with CR1/2 wildshape and swims as well. Even a surprisingly good Cure Wounds through your familar (just a tad above simple pop-up healing). And you can just go Moon for "I don't need the HP, but you might" sorta stuff (cast bless, bonus wildshape and move, attack next turn), or Land for more spell preps and slot recovery, or whatever. The extra spell preps and cantrips from 1lvl of Cleric does weird stuff to what you can prepare as a Druid at higher levels. All the good spells, plus your heals, with 1-3 preps pre-done on basic usage by that one Cleric level. And 3+ a day "useful" preps taken care of is mighty powerful on an open spell list like a Druid's. Since you'll start at 4 lvl1 cleric preps (+Bless and Cure Wounds) at Wis16+ with 1lvl of Life Cleric, and get to 6 at Wis20, you'll be pretty prep happy on Schroedinger's Druid "I always have the thing prepped I need, and we all have full HP every encounter" at later levels, with no white room needed. It's like having a pseudo ritual caster feat or something, and +d4 Moon Sickle +3HP Life Cleric heals, and free spell preps for your actual druid slots, and +1DC for druid spells, and a magic weapon if you ever need that))

[TheNerfGuy]

^ Sadly, the campaign I'm in has us all start out at Level 1, so no starting magic items...

Only thing to do is either find them or, thankfully, build up enough gold to buy them from the campaign's local magic shop.

[TheNerfGuy]

I do have the Ultimate Adventurer's Handbook, and my DM has noted that it can be used so long as it's brought in.

One option I found in it was the Theurgy subclass, and it grants Channel Divinity. At first, it can be used either boost spell attacks or spell save DC by 2, "as appropriate".
PHB does have rules on allowing me to change subclasses, so changing him to Theurgy is an option.

[wizarddog]

5e should have kept crafting of magic items in the rules so you wouldn't need magic shops and you would have something to use the money for. Could had allowed other classes to craft through ritual or feat(s). Sometimes designers try to balance things in the wrong way.

[KorvinStarmast]

5e should have kept crafting of magic items in the rules They did. It's in the DMG. And the rule includes 'work with the DM' since the DM has to come up with the formula that fits their world. This isn't a computer game. The 3.x WBL thing was {censored} and thankfully, the 5e team got rid of it. Crafting rules have been in the game since the first books in 1974, but you had to become a wizard (11th level) to start doing that and surviving that long took a bit of luck and hard work. You had to earn it. Each edition had its own variation on the theme. (I remember a magic user being able to write scrolls at something like level 7 in AD&D 1e, but don't have the books handy at the moment).

The whole point is to go out and find / discover magic items and treasure. That why the characters are referred to as adventurers.

[Segev]

People keep mentioning a cap of 30 on stats even with Tomes. Can anybody please provide the citation for this? I can't find it anywhere I have thought to look. It is not in the Tomes, themselves.

[Rukelnikov]

People keep mentioning a cap of 30 on stats even with Tomes. Can anybody please provide the citation for this? I can't find it anywhere I have thought to look. It is not in the Tomes, themselves.

Here you go, under Ability Scores and Modifiers


The Ability Scores and Modifiers table notes the ability modifiers for the range of possible ability scores, from 1 to 30.

[Amnestic]

Here you go, under Ability Scores and Modifiers

Not that I actually believe this is or should be the case, but wouldn't the "specific trumps general" stuff mean you could break the 30 limit with tomes? They specifically increase your "maximum" for that score.

[Chaos Jackal]

Not that I actually believe this is or should be the case, but wouldn't the "specific trumps general" stuff mean you could break the 30 limit with tomes? They specifically increase your "maximum" for that score.

They do indeed. Maximums are a case of specific beats general, as evidenced by PC maximum actually being 20, rather than 30, but with specific items beating the general statement.

However, the rule in pg173 isn't about maximums, which is an important distinction. It refers to the range of possible ability scores, ie anything outside that range flat out doesn't exist. A score of 32 in a stat isn't any more possible than someone having a Combat Maneuver Bonus in 5e.

I believe most people would agree the RAI is definitely on the hard cap at 30 side, but even RAW arguably supports it.

[Amnestic]

They do indeed. Maximums are a case of specific beats general, as evidenced by PC maximum actually being 20, rather than 30, but with specific items beating the general statement.

However, the rule in pg173 isn't about maximums, which is an important distinction. It refers to the range of possible ability scores, ie anything outside that range flat out doesn't exist. A score of 32 in a stat isn't any more possible than someone having a Combat Maneuver Bonus in 5e.

I believe most people would agree the RAI is definitely on the hard cap at 30 side, but even RAW arguably supports it.

That's a reasonable RAW response, I'd agree with that - not that I expect it to ever come up outside of silly whiteroom discussions.

[Osuniev]

If your DM is willing to have people selling magic items in his world but is afraid of unbalancing his game, this is a good resource to give them : it lists every official magic items , with the suggested price ranges in the PHB, XGtE, Sane Magic Items Prices (a discussion in this forum correcting some of the weirdest advice), and the Discerning Merchant Price Guide (another attempt at reasonable price).

The only "official" price is the one chosen by your DM, but this is a good starting point for them to define their own.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OG7UsbsjNFX4zVkDORiem1ySUGYrhu-wrTRnGEk4jgc/edit?usp=sharing

[Segev]

If your DM is willing to have people selling magic items in his world but is afraid of unbalancing his game, this is a good resource to give them : it lists every official magic items , with the suggested price ranges in the PHB, XGtE, Sane Magic Items Prices (a discussion in this forum correcting some of the weirdest advice), and the Discerning Merchant Price Guide (another attempt at reasonable price).

The only "official" price is the one chosen by your DM, but this is a good starting point for them to define their own.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OG7UsbsjNFX4zVkDORiem1ySUGYrhu-wrTRnGEk4jgc/edit?usp=sharing

Another place to find prices, though not a free source, is "Advanced 5e," which is a third party product that attempted their own, crunchier adaptation of 5e that also, I think, would generally be pretty popular with people who find they have issues with things like the monk's ki level and the ranger in general; it looks like it was designed by people who share a lot of this forum's preferences, though it doesn't go so far as to try to tackle martial/caster imbalance by (for example) removing spellcasting at high levels.

One thing it does do is have a book that has the DMG-style catalog of magic items, priced explicitly the way 3e did.

Tomes are about 20,000 gp in there, IIRC.

[Tanarii]

Tomes are about 20,000 gp in there, IIRC.
So the party can afford about 2 per level in Tier 3, and 18 per level in Tier 4?

[Segev]

So the party can afford about 2 per level in Tier 3, and 18 per level in Tier 4?

Honestly, I have no idea. I haven't studied their WBL table (though I assume they have one) enough to know. But possibly!

[Tanarii]

Honestly, I have no idea. I haven't studied their WBL table (though I assume they have one) enough to know. But possibly!
Ah my mistake, it didn't occur to me they might (probably even) have their own version of the treasure tables. :smallredface:

[Segev]

Ah my mistake, it didn't occur to me they might (probably even) have their own version of the treasure tables. :smallredface:

Like I said, I legitimately don't know. I'm in a game using the book that has the magic item catelog for its pricing, because the adventure module is put out by the same company and so the loot tables for that are going to be what they want them to be. We are at a point at level 10/11 that we can afford a tome each if we wanted to, but that would be a big bite into our individual wealth, which could go to other magic items instead.