Any rules or lore on selling your soul to a demon?

[redking]

I am not speaking of Faustian Pacts with Harvester Devils (Baatezu), but rather selling your soul to demons (Tanar'ri). The WotC website has a fellow called Ormad Sulpar, Master of Demons (https://web.archive.org/web/20130531123005/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040315a). He sold his soul to six different demons.

When a mortal with a Faustian Pact dies, the devils collect automatically. How does it work with demons? I presume that they have to collect directly. Any ideas?

[Biggus]

I don't know of anything specific about how the soul is taken, but there's general information about how corruptor demons work in FC p.16-17, and FF p.202-204 has the Fiend of Corruption prestige class which both demons and devils can take.

[hamishspence]

The Abyss-Bound Soul feat (Champions of Ruin) I think specifically states that the being's soul automatically goes to the relevant demon's domain after death.

[Particle_Man]

You get warlock powers?

[hamishspence]

There's nothing about Being A Warlock that limits one's afterlife destination - a CG warlock can easily get into the CG afterlives.

[Crake]

There's nothing about Being A Warlock that limits one's afterlife destination - a CG warlock can easily get into the CG afterlives.

Correct, warlocks in 3.5 do not have pacts like they do in 5e, they can equally be pact-based, or hereditary-based, so warlocks specifically aren't tied to the source of their power (though they feasibly could be)

[Tzardok]

I am not speaking of Faustian Pacts with Harvester Devils (Baatezu), but rather selling your soul to demons (Tanar'ri). The WotC website has a fellow called Ormad Sulpar, Master of Demons (https://web.archive.org/web/20130531123005/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040315a). He sold his soul to six different demons.

When a mortal with a Faustian Pact dies, the devils collect automatically. How does it work with demons? I presume that they have to collect directly. Any ideas?

Why do you presume that demons can't automatically collect souls?

One of the main differences between a devil pact and a demon pact would be IMO that demons are a lot more informal about that whole thing. Instead of a written contract with clauses and exact definitions and so on it would be propably just a verbal "I do this for you, you do this for me" thing with a handshake and some kind of token or brand to ensure that you won't try to doublecross the demon. Demons are also a lot more likely to lie about the exact nature of the given service, and a lot less likely to do longterm things that don't pay off quickly.

And finally there's always the chance that the demon breaks the deal on a whim if not compelled to do otherwise. Devils are at least reliable.

[Crake]

And finally there's always the chance that the demon breaks the deal on a whim if not compelled to do otherwise. Devils are at least reliable.

If the demon breaks the deal though, they'd lose rights to your soul, so only time they'd do that is if a more worthwhile opportunity arises where they can break the deal, lose your soul, but gain something greater in return.

That being said, souls don't have the same value to a demon as they do to a devil. At best they're a trophy to gloat over, at worst they're 10xp to throw into a dark craft. Devils on the other hand literally use souls to reproduce, so their entire society is structured around collecting souls to throw into the infernal engine.

As such, demons are typically more satisfied with merely corrupting you and ruining your life, ensuring you're bound to the abyss through your own actions simply for the pure, sadistic pleasure of condemning a soul to an eternity of suffering.

[Tzardok]

Why would that prevent them from taking the soul anyway? They are chaotic after all, they aren't bound by honor. I could imagine a demon who succesfully "marked" someone through a deal then saying after getting bored with it:

"You don't get any benefits anymore, but I'll take the soul after death anyway."

"You can't do that! That wasn't the deal!"

"I'm altering the deal. Pray that I don't alter it further."

[Mordante]

Slightly off topic. But in my games I would never allow any pact between demons and mortals. IMHO demons are unthinking mindless being/forces of destruction. Almost like a force of nature.

[Crake]

Why would that prevent them from taking the soul anyway? They are chaotic after all, they aren't bound by honor. I could imagine a demon who succesfully "marked" someone through a deal then saying after getting bored with it:

"You don't get any benefits anymore, but I'll take the soul after death anyway."

"You can't do that! That wasn't the deal!"

"I'm altering the deal. Pray that I don't alter it further."

Presumably because there is some pact magic at play that enforces it on the mortal's end as well? That's what I would guess anyway, pacts for souls can exist outside of the pact primeval and faustian bargains, the fiend of corruption and fiend of blasphemy both show this. That being said, the fiend of corruption pact states that it is utterly inviolable, so that presumably goes both ways, neither the fiend nor the mortal can break the terms of the agreement, so a demon wouldn't be able to break their word in that case even if their whims decided they wanted to.

[redking]

The Abyss-Bound Soul feat (Champions of Ruin) I think specifically states that the being's soul automatically goes to the relevant demon's domain after death.

That's good information, but I doubt that the soul-selling mortal is going to be willing to take Abyss-Bound Soul and Evil Brands feat to help consign themselves to the Abyss.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That's good information, but I doubt that the soul-selling mortal is going to be willing to take Abyss-Bound Soul and Evil Brands feat to help consign themselves to the Abyss.

Not necessarily, but it means there is a precedent for the fact that if "You have pledged your immortal soul to a particular demon lord in return for a gift that aids your evil works in life.", then there is an automatic retrieval of said soul upon death.

[redking]

Not necessarily, but it means there is a precedent for the fact that if "You have pledged your immortal soul to a particular demon lord in return for a gift that aids your evil works in life.", then there is an automatic retrieval of said soul upon death.

Precedent, yes, but the method for it (the two feats) is given at the same time. With devils you've got the Pact Primeval and your soul goes auto-magically to the hells. With demons, it seems likely that you could stiff them by not paying up with your soul.

[Crake]

With demons, it seems likely that you could stiff them by not paying up with your soul.

Right, but likewise, the demon could also just stiff you, so if there's no magical enforcement, then... its not really a magical pact for your soul, is it? There ARE magical pacts that can be made for a soul, but it's not something a demon seems to be inherently capable of, unlike faustian bargains, which any devil can make. If a demon wants to consign mortals into pacts for their soul, they'll need to use various forms of magic to back that up, like being a fiend of corruption/blasphemy/whatever magical spell combination they can muster.

[Biggus]

IMHO demons are unthinking mindless being/forces of destruction.

A Balor has Int 24, that doesn't seem very unthinking/mindless to me...

[the_tick_rules]

Book of Vile Darkness should have that info.

[redking]

Book of Vile Darkness should have that info.

It should but it don't!

[Particle_Man]

There's nothing about Being A Warlock that limits one's afterlife destination - a CG warlock can easily get into the CG afterlives.

Rules-wise you are right but fluff-wise and lore-wise it pulls strongly in the demonic direction. Morthos doesn’t give off a Fey vibe, somehow. :smallsmile:

[the_tick_rules]

It should but it don't!

if you don't mind using 3.5 fiendish codex 2 has it. it starts around page 22

[Crake]

if you don't mind using 3.5 fiendish codex 2 has it. it starts around page 22

those are the faustian deals referenced in the OP, and are exclusive to devils, not something demons have access to.

[redking]

if you don't mind using 3.5 fiendish codex 2 has it. it starts around page 22

Crake has the right of it -


those are the faustian deals referenced in the OP, and are exclusive to devils, not something demons have access to.

Which is why I am looking for any lore at all about whether the demons can collect automatically. It seems that they cannot, and are reliant on spells like soul bind.