Can people 'brew for me...

[MrStabby]

I am interested in soliciting views for a monk subclass. I can't promise it will be played, so as much looking for inspiration as anything else.

Mostly I am interested in how other people think though...

So what I am after is:

1) a monk
2) that has a strong incentive to have wisdom as the primary stat
3) that is roughly balanced against paladins, hexblades and clerics (the other party members)
4) has a more strongly magical theme than physical prowess (e.g. I would see shadowmonk and astral having this over kensei and drunken master)
5) rarely finding fights where subclass features are irrelevant (e.g. illusionist facing truesight enemies)
6) looks really fun to play!

Just really keen to see what people would come up with.

[animorte]

So, essentially you want a collaboration project?

Based off the information you’ve given, perhaps we’ll encounter a 1/3 caster Monk subclass. Looking forward to being part of this construction.

[MutantDragon]

At first, I was thinking about a half caster. But they tend to lean more martial. We could always do a half caster with a bunch of obviously magical goodies outside of casting, of course. But perhaps a two thirds caster like this: https://sw5e.com/rules/phb/classes/Sentinel? I dunno. It's an interesting idea, though.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I am interested in soliciting views for a monk subclass. I can't promise it will be played, so as much looking for inspiration as anything else.

Mostly I am interested in how other people think though...

So what I am after is:

1) a monk
2) that has a strong incentive to have wisdom as the primary stat
3) that is roughly balanced against paladins, hexblades and clerics (the other party members)
4) has a more strongly magical theme than physical prowess (e.g. I would see shadowmonk and astral having this over kensei and drunken master)
5) rarely finding fights where subclass features are irrelevant (e.g. illusionist facing truesight enemies)
6) looks really fun to play!

Just really keen to see what people would come up with.

I have a couple things:

Way of the Exorcist Monk (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ytJdx_sL_GzLQsslHIDn9WnkybJQf1ZV/view?usp=sharing)
Basically a half casting cleric Monk

Genjutsu Ninja (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tEEavkB348Kn69Od8_G8eHV-KErcj1su/view?usp=share_link)
This is actually a Monk/Rogue base class with a Genjutsu based subclass. (there's also a warrior archetype and an Artificer archetype. Have a look.) I'll note it uses Int instead of Wis for Ki DCs.

Zerth'Arai Monastic Tradition (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vYQIwkxxzKzAsIszONRz4SRJYQTZJ-8j-KtdlSot7oA/edit?usp=sharing). It's a Time Monk that can throw some temporary Haste and Slow. The 17th level feature is a "attack as many things as I can once each" time stop. Monk damage isn't amazing and spread out to one punch per target isn't super impactful, but it is very fun, and stuff like automatic knock downs and shoves can do some interesting things.

I hope any of this helps. Good luck!

[brian 333]

Arcane First

The monks of the Arcane Fist do not cast spells; they weave magical energies into themselves, creating a perfect balance of physical attack and defense with magical augmentation. In essence, they strive to become a magic weapon or shield.

They typically train along one of two paths: The Best Defense Is A Good Offense, or The Best Offence Is A Good Defense. As the monk gains levels the distinction between the paths becomes less pronounced until both styles are subsumed in the Master Of The Arcane Fist at level 20.

Both paths begin with +3/4 levels base attack. At Level 1, an Offense monk may add 1 point of Wisdom bonus, if available, as a +1 bonus to attack, and the +1 Wisdom bonus can be applied to AC by the Defense monk. This bonus may improve every four levels, up to the limit of the character's Wisdom bonus. A character with a +2 Wis bonus cannot gain +3 bonus this way unless the unmodified Wisdom score improves.

Offense:
Level 1: Base Attack 1, +1 Wis bonus to attack
Level 2: Base Attack 2
Level 3: Base Attack 3
Level 4: Base Attack 3, +2 Wis bonus to attack
Level 5: Base Attack 4
Level 6: Base Attack 5
Level 7: Base Attack 6
Level 8: Base Attack 6, +3 Wis Bonus to attack
And so on.

Defense:
Level 1: Base Attack 1, AC +1
Level 2: Base Attack 2
Level 3: Base Attack 3
Level 4: Base Attack 3, AC+2
And so on.

At level 1 a character may choose a spell from a list of offensive or defensive enhancements with a range of 'caster' and begin perfecting it as a fighting technique, useable 1/day. A Mage Weapon spell, for example, or a Mage Armor spell, either of which can be 'cast' using Wisdom and Monk levels.
A level 2 a second level 1 spell becomes available. The monk may choose a different spell from the list, or may choose a second use of the already known spell.
At level 3 a third slot for a level 1 spell is added.
At level 4 a level 2 slot becomes available. An additional level 2 slot is added at level 5. At levels 6 and 7, level 3 slots are added. At levels 8 and 9, level 4 slot is added, and at level 10 a level 5 slot becomes available.
In the level 11-20 range, the opposite path opens and additional slots become available which are dedicated to the spells of the other style. In this manner, a level 20 Arcane First has 3 offensive and 3 defensive level 1 slots, 3 offensive and 3 defensive level 2 slots, 2 offensive and two defensive level 3 slots, two offensive and two defensive level 4 slots, and one each level 5 slots.

An Arcane First may choose to drop a known style and learn another at each level, as a sorcerer can reassign known spells.

The list of spell effects may be quite small due to the requirement that it affect only the caster. With only a handful of effects available, the Arcane First should be encouraged to research and develop new styles. As an example, Mage Armor and Shield may be available at level 1, (with their divine counterparts from the cleric list.) An Arcane First might research how to Shield Other as a 2nd Level Style, and learn to grant the bonus to another character. The effect would still be required to be personal, which might force the monk to intervene between an attacker and the target to grant the bonus, but its effect would be applied to the target. Many other such alterations or innovations are possible. Converting damage types is an obvious one, (though a poisonous damage type would have to be applied to the monk first...)

Arcane Fists may cast spells from scrolls beginning at Level 2, with Monk levels treated as 1/2 arcane or divine caster levels, so a level 5 monk casts spells from scrolls as a level 2 cleric or wizard. Arcane Fists may scribe scrolls beginning at level 4, with Monk levels treated as 1/4 arcane or divine caster levels. Such scrolls may only duplicate known styles. Any character capable of using such scrolls can benefit from them.

Manual of Styles: Arcane Fists may record any known style for future use by themselves or by another Arcane Fist. These are not magical texts, though, like a wizard's spellbook, the information would be concealed in jargon only an Arcane Fist could understand.

Every 4th level up to level 20 an Arcane Fist gains a cumulative +1 bonus to resist magical effects, and a +1 damage reduction to Magic damage type.

Monk movement, unarmed combat progression, and most other benefits remain.

This was a quick brainstorm, and a whole lot of rewriting would be required, including a feat list if feats are available. My intent was for an unarmed combat class, but weapon use is certainly possible. I had also thought about Elemental Styles with their own lists of enhancements, but it was getting long already.

Feel free to use what you like and tweak or discard the parts you don't. I may revisit this idea if it interests you and try to adjust it to balance better.

[MrStabby]

So, essentially you want a collaboration project?

Based off the information you’ve given, perhaps we’ll encounter a 1/3 caster Monk subclass. Looking forward to being part of this construction.

Well I was thinking to just solicit people to create homebrew round a theme to see what comes up and to see what awesome range of ideas are out there. That said, if people want to do a collaboration on this I would be really happy to do that as well.




At first, I was thinking about a half caster. But they tend to lean more martial. We could always do a half caster with a bunch of obviously magical goodies outside of casting, of course. But perhaps a two thirds caster like this: https://sw5e.com/rules/phb/classes/Sentinel? I dunno. It's an interesting idea, though.

The example... I have difficulty really getting due to the very different setting, but from what I can tell... maybe.

On the casting side I have some concerns. Don't get me wrong, its not that its a bad idea but personal preference makes we worry about it. One of my gripes with the 4 elements monk (well my main gripe with it) is that it doesn't get much thats special - instead it just gets spells other classes got a long time ago and gets them when they are no longer exciting. Basically, I worry that if its a good spell someone else in the party will have taken it. And if its a bad spell, then its also kind of unexciting. The only exceptions might be paladin and ranger spells.

So by magical, I wasn't explicitly meaning spells. So something like the shadowmonk (spells aside) is able to do clearly magical things like teleport and turn invisible. Mercy has magical healing and so on. Kensei and Drunken master on the other hand are less fantasical.



I have a couple things:

Way of the Exorcist Monk (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ytJdx_sL_GzLQsslHIDn9WnkybJQf1ZV/view?usp=sharing)
Basically a half casting cleric Monk

Genjutsu Ninja (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tEEavkB348Kn69Od8_G8eHV-KErcj1su/view?usp=share_link)
This is actually a Monk/Rogue base class with a Genjutsu based subclass. (there's also a warrior archetype and an Artificer archetype. Have a look.) I'll note it uses Int instead of Wis for Ki DCs.

Zerth'Arai Monastic Tradition (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vYQIwkxxzKzAsIszONRz4SRJYQTZJ-8j-KtdlSot7oA/edit?usp=sharing). It's a Time Monk that can throw some temporary Haste and Slow. The 17th level feature is a "attack as many things as I can once each" time stop. Monk damage isn't amazing and spread out to one punch per target isn't super impactful, but it is very fun, and stuff like automatic knock downs and shoves can do some interesting things.

I hope any of this helps. Good luck!

The excorcist monk might be a decent example of a good theme. Whilst the spellcasting is still suffering from my concern above (personal view of what's fun) a lot of the other parts stack up and a strong enough emphasis on the spells means that a wisdom first monk is attracive (coupled with the channel divinity type effects).

The ninja is very cool and yes, the subclass is cool (actually the las one is pretty cool also) - and what a strong spell list. Somehing like that could be fun to explore.

The time monk on the other hand is right out - not because there is anything wrong with it per se, but rather because I already played something strikingly similar before (almost a one to one match between the themes of the abilities, though the mechanics were a bit different)!






Arcane First

The monks of the Arcane Fist do not cast spells; they weave magical energies into themselves, creating a perfect balance of physical attack and defense with magical augmentation. In essence, they strive to become a magic weapon or shield.

They typically train along one of two paths: The Best Defense Is A Good Offense, or The Best Offence Is A Good Defense. As the monk gains levels the distinction between the paths becomes less pronounced until both styles are subsumed in the Master Of The Arcane Fist at level 20.

Both paths begin with +3/4 levels base attack. At Level 1, an Offense monk may add 1 point of Wisdom bonus, if available, as a +1 bonus to attack, and the +1 Wisdom bonus can be applied to AC by the Defense monk. This bonus may improve every four levels, up to the limit of the character's Wisdom bonus. A character with a +2 Wis bonus cannot gain +3 bonus this way unless the unmodified Wisdom score improves.

Offense:
Level 1: Base Attack 1, +1 Wis bonus to attack
Level 2: Base Attack 2
Level 3: Base Attack 3
Level 4: Base Attack 3, +2 Wis bonus to attack
Level 5: Base Attack 4
Level 6: Base Attack 5
Level 7: Base Attack 6
Level 8: Base Attack 6, +3 Wis Bonus to attack
And so on.

Defense:
Level 1: Base Attack 1, AC +1
Level 2: Base Attack 2
Level 3: Base Attack 3
Level 4: Base Attack 3, AC+2
And so on.

At level 1 a character may choose a spell from a list of offensive or defensive enhancements with a range of 'caster' and begin perfecting it as a fighting technique, useable 1/day. A Mage Weapon spell, for example, or a Mage Armor spell, either of which can be 'cast' using Wisdom and Monk levels.
A level 2 a second level 1 spell becomes available. The monk may choose a different spell from the list, or may choose a second use of the already known spell.
At level 3 a third slot for a level 1 spell is added.
At level 4 a level 2 slot becomes available. An additional level 2 slot is added at level 5. At levels 6 and 7, level 3 slots are added. At levels 8 and 9, level 4 slot is added, and at level 10 a level 5 slot becomes available.
In the level 11-20 range, the opposite path opens and additional slots become available which are dedicated to the spells of the other style. In this manner, a level 20 Arcane First has 3 offensive and 3 defensive level 1 slots, 3 offensive and 3 defensive level 2 slots, 2 offensive and two defensive level 3 slots, two offensive and two defensive level 4 slots, and one each level 5 slots.

An Arcane First may choose to drop a known style and learn another at each level, as a sorcerer can reassign known spells.

The list of spell effects may be quite small due to the requirement that it affect only the caster. With only a handful of effects available, the Arcane First should be encouraged to research and develop new styles. As an example, Mage Armor and Shield may be available at level 1, (with their divine counterparts from the cleric list.) An Arcane First might research how to Shield Other as a 2nd Level Style, and learn to grant the bonus to another character. The effect would still be required to be personal, which might force the monk to intervene between an attacker and the target to grant the bonus, but its effect would be applied to the target. Many other such alterations or innovations are possible. Converting damage types is an obvious one, (though a poisonous damage type would have to be applied to the monk first...)

Arcane Fists may cast spells from scrolls beginning at Level 2, with Monk levels treated as 1/2 arcane or divine caster levels, so a level 5 monk casts spells from scrolls as a level 2 cleric or wizard. Arcane Fists may scribe scrolls beginning at level 4, with Monk levels treated as 1/4 arcane or divine caster levels. Such scrolls may only duplicate known styles. Any character capable of using such scrolls can benefit from them.

Manual of Styles: Arcane Fists may record any known style for future use by themselves or by another Arcane Fist. These are not magical texts, though, like a wizard's spellbook, the information would be concealed in jargon only an Arcane Fist could understand.

Every 4th level up to level 20 an Arcane Fist gains a cumulative +1 bonus to resist magical effects, and a +1 damage reduction to Magic damage type.

Monk movement, unarmed combat progression, and most other benefits remain.

This was a quick brainstorm, and a whole lot of rewriting would be required, including a feat list if feats are available. My intent was for an unarmed combat class, but weapon use is certainly possible. I had also thought about Elemental Styles with their own lists of enhancements, but it was getting long already.

Feel free to use what you like and tweak or discard the parts you don't. I may revisit this idea if it interests you and try to adjust it to balance better.


I got very confused with this, trying to wrap my hear round it then I realised this seems to be more in the 3rd edition format than the 5th edition. Not a problem at all for a starting point though. So I am picking up as a theme:

Wisdom provides additional boosts to attack and defense
Some buff spells, but very broad selection to chose from

So the wisdom buffs to attack and defence I at first thought were a bit passive and uninteresting, but on thinking a bit more I think that some kind of monk tank could be interesting if we could find a good 5th edition way to represent it.

The buff spells I also think my first instinct might have been to misjudge. I think that there is an ability which is casting a spell - and if it is just a spell from a list being cast when its no longer new, then its not really that exciting. On the other hand, I think that this ability could be a lot more. If the abiliy is as much about the selecting the spell as the casting of it, then you have a class ability which is finding the perfect defensive spell/buff for the occasion. Given how niche some of them are it could be a neat ability. The ideal smite spell to target a weak save or a protection from evil and good spell or a shield effect and so on. I do like the focus on leaning more though - a nice extra touch.


Going to try and work up some ideas myself as well

[MutantDragon]

The example... I have difficulty really getting due to the very different setting, but from what I can tell... maybe.

On the casting side I have some concerns. Don't get me wrong, its not that its a bad idea but personal preference makes we worry about it. One of my gripes with the 4 elements monk (well my main gripe with it) is that it doesn't get much thats special - instead it just gets spells other classes got a long time ago and gets them when they are no longer exciting. Basically, I worry that if its a good spell someone else in the party will have taken it. And if its a bad spell, then its also kind of unexciting. The only exceptions might be paladin and ranger spells.

So by magical, I wasn't explicitly meaning spells. So something like the shadowmonk (spells aside) is able to do clearly magical things like teleport and turn invisible. Mercy has magical healing and so on. Kensei and Drunken master on the other hand are less fantasical.



Ok, I think I've got more of a handle on what you're saying. The different settings thing wasn't really a concern for me, I was just trying to show what I meant by 2/3rds caster, but I think I get where you're going with this. Traditional Ki, but making the Ki more of the focus. So, let's start by what we're stealing from the standard monk. Unarmored defense is a must. Martial arts is good too, but we should be careful to limit it a bit compared to the normal monk. Maybe we give it to them at 2nd level and swap in some early Ki? Now, Ki is obviously going to stay. The unarmored movement feels nice thematically, but we should be careful not to total take over the normal monk class's role, so I'll list that as a maybe. Deflect missiles and slow fall...same issue as unarmored movement really. It works thematically, but it's not really all that different from the monk. You know what, forget what I said about unarmored movement. All three are taking the boot. Stunning strike. Stunning strike. Same issue as before, but harder to justify the removal of. Ki empowered strikes and stillness of mind can stay. Evasion is right out. Purity of body...sure, you can stay. Tongue of sun and moon...with some modifications, yes, you can stay. Diamond soul is out. Timeless body and empty body can stay. Perfect self can stay if we modify it to actually be useful. Ok, cool. Now, assuming I'm on the right track with this, I'll see if I can find the time to come up with more monastic magic goodies to stuff into the monk chassis to replace the lost features.

[Yakk]

Because ... why not?
Bender

Bender monks have learned to extend their Ki to manipulate the elements of reality. Each Bender specializes in a specific element.

Elemental Disipline
Benders are spellcasters. They use their wisdom to determine their spell DCs and spell attack rolls. Starting at 3rd level, a Bender picks an elemental discipline and learns spells.

A Bender can cast each of the non-cantrip spells it knows once before completing long rest. In addition, by spending Ki equal to the spells level, they can cast it an additional time before completing a short rest.

If the spell can be cast using a higher level slot, the Bender is always considered to be using a spell slot of 1/3 of their monk level (rounded up). This does not increase the Ki cost of the spell.

Benders can cast a bender spell that usually takes an action as a bonus action, but if they do so the only actions they can take are attack, dash or dodge.

All Bender spells require only S components, plus access to your element (even if only a small pot of water or raindrops in the air) on yourself or near the target. Fire benders typically carry flint and steel on rings and can strike sparks as part of casting a spell. You can treat this as you would a component pouch.

Earth: An Earth Bender learns the Move Earth and Magic Stone cantrips. Their magic stones count as monk weapons for them. They also gain Termorsense 20' and are resistant to bludgeoning damage.
3rd: Shield, Earth Tremor, Maximillian's Earthen Grasp
6th: Wall of Sand, Erupting Earth, Stone Skin (self only)
11th: Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, Move Earth
17th: Transmute Rock, Investiture of Stone, Bones of the Earth

Air: An Air Bender learns the Thunderclap and Gust cantrip, and can cast Feather Fall and Levitation (self only) without expending any spell slots or ki. For each point of Ki the Bender spends, they can fly 10'; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
3rd: Catapult, Zephyr Strike, Thunderwave
6th: Dust Devil, Gust of Wind, Kinetic Jaunt
11th: Fly, Wind Wall, Steel Wind Strike
17th: Investiture of Wind, Whirlwind, Control Winds

Fire: A Fire Bender learns the Fire Bolt, Control Flames and Campfire cantrips.
Spells known:
3rd: Absorb Elements (fire only), Burning Hands, Searing Smite
6th: Aganazzar's Scorcher, Ashardalon's Stride, Flame Blade
11th: Fireball, Scorching Ray, Elemental Weapon (fire)
17th: Wall of Fire, Flame Strike, Investiture of Flame

Water: A Water Bender learns the Ray of Frost, Frostbite and Shape Water cantrips. In addition, Water Benders can breathe water, and have a swim speed equal to their speed.
3rd: Armor of Agathys, Fog Cloud, Ice Knife
6th: Rime's Binding Ice, Icingdeath's Frost, Freedom of the Waves
11th: Tidal Wave, Wall of Water, Control Water
17th: Investiture of Ice, Maelstrom, Cone of Cold

Elemental Attacks:
Starting at 3rd level, a Bender can use their element to attack foes. They can make unarmed attacks using their wisdom modifier for attack and damage, instead of dexterity. In addion:

Earth: The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed attack they must make a save against the Benders Spell DC or be knocked prone.

Air: Creatures that the Bender has hit with an unarmed strike are at disadvantage to hit the Bender until the end of the Bender's next turn.

Water: The Benders unarmed strikes have a reach of 15', and the Bender can choose to deal slashing damage.

Fire: Your unarmed attacks can deal fire damage. Creatures you hit with unarmed attacks that deal fire damage are set aflame. Creatures who are aflame take your martial arts die plus your wisdom bonus damage at the end of their turns. This fire can be put out as an action by the creature or anyone adjacent to it, or by exposure to sufficient water or wind.

Elemental Affinity
Starting at 6th level your affinity to your element gives you these benefits

Earth: You cannot be moved or knocked prone so long as you are touching stone or ground. While you are touching stone or ground, you have advantage on all saving throws.

Air: When you or an ally within 30' fails a dexterity saving throw or are hit by an attack, you can expend a reaction to add your wisdom bonus to the saving throw or the AC against the attack.

Water: Whenever you spend Ki, you heal a roll of your monk damage die plus the ki spent damage. If you are missed by an attack, you have advantage on your next attack on the attacker. If you pass a saving throw, the creature who caused that saving throw has disadvantage on the next saving throw you impose upon them.

Fire: Your unarmed attacks score critical hits on a 19 or 20, and deal an extra set of monk damage dice as fire damage. You become resistant to both fire and cold damage.

Elemental Manifestation:

Starting at 11th level,

Earth: After every long or short rest, you gain temporary HP equal to twice your monk level.

Air: At the start of your turn, roll 1d20. You can use this to replace a saving throw you make or an attack roll made on you until the start of your next turn.

Water: Once, as an action, you can transfer any amount of damage, curses, magical effects or conditions to yourself from a willing or incapacitated creature you touch. Any damage you transfer is halved. If the curse, magical effect or condition was applied via a saving throw failure, you can repeat that saving throw with advantage to shrug off the effect.

Fire: You are under the effects of the spell Fire Shield(warm) without concentration. You can activate it as a bonus action, and it lasts until you deactivate it as a bonus action or become incapacitated.

Elemental Mastery

Starting at 17th level, Benders are true masters of their element.

Earth: You regain your temporary from HP Elemental Manifestation at the start of each of your turns.

Air: You gain a fly speed equal to your movement speed. While you are flying, all attacks on you are at disadvantage and you have advantage on dexterity saving throws.

Water: When you are reduced to 0 HP, you cast mass heal. You can only do this once before completing a long rest.

Fire: As a bonus action you may transform into a Fire Elemental. You keep your own attributes, except you change creature type, replace your HP with its HP, gain +20 speed, the damage resistances/immunities/senses of the elemental and all of its abilities.

In this form, your fire elemental Touch attack deals 2 sets of monk damage dice as fire damage, and uses your wisdom bonus for attack and damage.

When killed or reduced to 0 HP, you revert from this form. Leftover damage is ignored, and any conditions on the elemental you wish to end also end.

You can do this once before completing a long or short rest.

...

Probably too strong. It is aimed at generating the feel of Avatar Benders.

You get 3 spells at each of 3/6/11/17 useable 1/rest, and can double it with Ki. These spells scale roughly as if you are a half caster, and can combo with an attack action.

Then I added flavourful abilities which are also pretty decent.

Overall, you'll end up as strong as a full caster, able to do things with your element more frequently and stronger than a full caster focused on that element could do. Which is way out of bounds for a monk.

...

Ok, I tuned it down.

1) 1 free casting per spell per long rest instead of per rest.
2) Limit 1 casting of each spell using ki per short rest (instead of how many ki you want to spend)

This keeps the "use a variety of effects" encouragement intact while dropping its power budget.

I have no intention of balancing it against the 4 elements monk. The 4E monk has a fundamental error, in that as a subclass it adds basically zero power and just an alternative way to spend ki. The ratio of ki:effect is also mediocre compared to baseline monk abilities. This makes it sort of a trap.

The above monk tries to avoid that trap; you'll want to use your elemental abilities, and a variety of ones, in fights. And you'll also want to do it while being a monk (punching things etc). The restriction on how many times you can use each spell helps prevent "well, I just spend ki on fireball". By level 20, it is possible you spend your each of your turns punching and casting fire spells, but that is very on-brand.

[kosh49]

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I just submitted version 2 of the Way of the Harbinger which is a pact magic using monk subclass. This idea of having both the spell slots and the ki points recover during a short rest felt very appropriate to me. The previous version just used the warlock invocation list, but the more I thought about it the more I felt that the monk's equivalent to invocations (which I call omens) should be unique to the class, which allowed for the inclusion of things that interacted with the monk's own ki powers. That said, all of the omens are new to this version, and so I would appreciate any feedback about whether they look balanced.

[MrStabby]

Ok, I think I've got more of a handle on what you're saying. The different settings thing wasn't really a concern for me, I was just trying to show what I meant by 2/3rds caster, but I think I get where you're going with this. Traditional Ki, but making the Ki more of the focus. So, let's start by what we're stealing from the standard monk. Unarmored defense is a must. Martial arts is good too, but we should be careful to limit it a bit compared to the normal monk. Maybe we give it to them at 2nd level and swap in some early Ki? Now, Ki is obviously going to stay. The unarmored movement feels nice thematically, but we should be careful not to total take over the normal monk class's role, so I'll list that as a maybe. Deflect missiles and slow fall...same issue as unarmored movement really. It works thematically, but it's not really all that different from the monk. You know what, forget what I said about unarmored movement. All three are taking the boot. Stunning strike. Stunning strike. Same issue as before, but harder to justify the removal of. Ki empowered strikes and stillness of mind can stay. Evasion is right out. Purity of body...sure, you can stay. Tongue of sun and moon...with some modifications, yes, you can stay. Diamond soul is out. Timeless body and empty body can stay. Perfect self can stay if we modify it to actually be useful. Ok, cool. Now, assuming I'm on the right track with this, I'll see if I can find the time to come up with more monastic magic goodies to stuff into the monk chassis to replace the lost features.


I was thinking much like a 5e subclass, but if there is a whole other class in there that could also be fun to explore.

As for Wisdom/Ki to be the major focus - I think Wisdom can be without Ki. I suppose I would look to the Paladin as an example. Abilities like Aura of Protection don't use spell slots but does key of Charisma. I think that on a deeper dive you also have things like Conquest Paladin with a Chanel Divinity that needs a save, more Oath spells that need saves etc.. And then contrast this to the Ranger where the spell list is less save focussed, the class abilities don't really use wisdom that much and so on.





Because ... why not?

An excellent attitude. I had tried some ideas myself and revisited them on the next day, hated everything I had written and threw it out. I can respect the progress!


Bender

Bender monks have learned to extend their Ki to manipulate the elements of reality. Each Bender specializes in a specific element.

Elemental Disipline
Benders are spellcasters. They use their wisdom to determine their spell DCs and spell attack rolls. Starting at 3rd level, a Bender picks an elemental discipline and learns spells.

A Bender can cast each of the non-cantrip spells it knows once before completing long rest. In addition, by spending Ki equal to the spells level, they can cast it an additional time before completing a short rest.

If the spell can be cast using a higher level slot, the Bender is always considered to be using a spell slot of 1/3 of their monk level (rounded up). This does not increase the Ki cost of the spell.

Benders can cast a bender spell that usually takes an action as a bonus action, but if they do so the only actions they can take are attack, dash or dodge.

All Bender spells require only S components, plus access to your element (even if only a small pot of water or raindrops in the air) on yourself or near the target. Fire benders typically carry flint and steel on rings and can strike sparks as part of casting a spell. You can treat this as you would a component pouch.

Earth: An Earth Bender learns the Move Earth and Magic Stone cantrips. Their magic stones count as monk weapons for them. They also gain Termorsense 20' and are resistant to bludgeoning damage.
3rd: Shield, Earth Tremor, Maximillian's Earthen Grasp
6th: Wall of Sand, Erupting Earth, Stone Skin (self only)
11th: Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, Move Earth
17th: Transmute Rock, Investiture of Stone, Bones of the Earth

Air: An Air Bender learns the Thunderclap and Gust cantrip, and can cast Feather Fall and Levitation (self only) without expending any spell slots or ki. For each point of Ki the Bender spends, they can fly 10'; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
3rd: Catapult, Zephyr Strike, Thunderwave
6th: Dust Devil, Gust of Wind, Kinetic Jaunt
11th: Fly, Wind Wall, Steel Wind Strike
17th: Investiture of Wind, Whirlwind, Control Winds

Fire: A Fire Bender learns the Fire Bolt, Control Flames and Campfire cantrips.
Spells known:
3rd: Absorb Elements (fire only), Burning Hands, Searing Smite
6th: Aganazzar's Scorcher, Ashardalon's Stride, Flame Blade
11th: Fireball, Scorching Ray, Elemental Weapon (fire)
17th: Wall of Fire, Flame Strike, Investiture of Flame

Water: A Water Bender learns the Ray of Frost, Frostbite and Shape Water cantrips. In addition, Water Benders can breathe water, and have a swim speed equal to their speed.
3rd: Armor of Agathys, Fog Cloud, Ice Knife
6th: Rime's Binding Ice, Icingdeath's Frost, Freedom of the Waves
11th: Tidal Wave, Wall of Water, Control Water
17th: Investiture of Ice, Maelstrom, Cone of Cold


Well this is a powerful ability... this is a really powerful ability.

Casting. Free spells. Casting spells as a bonus action. Casting spells without material components (suddenly stone skin seems a bit more attractive). Honestly this seems a bit much.

Look at third level - a cleric or druid or bard would be casting six spells over the day as their major class feature. The monk would be casting three spells for free, and if they wanted to they could still have the slots for three more spells... and at the same time still getting to attack each turn as well. This is a lot of power. Also this would be upcasting any level 1 spells to level 2 also. At higher levels stunning strike to force failed dex saves and the great mobility of the class will make some of these spells much more deadly in a monk's hands than in the hands of an ordinary caster.

I do like the spell lists though - I think that the elemental themes are well supported by available spells. Some of these are unfamiliar to me though - freedom of the waves for example?







Elemental Attacks:
Starting at 3rd level, a Bender can use their element to attack foes. They can make unarmed attacks using their wisdom modifier for attack and damage, instead of dexterity. In addion:

Earth: The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed attack they must make a save against the Benders Spell DC or be knocked prone.

Air: Creatures that the Bender has hit with an unarmed strike are at disadvantage to hit the Bender until the end of the Bender's next turn.

Water: The Benders unarmed strikes have a reach of 15', and the Bender can choose to deal slashing damage.

Fire: Your unarmed attacks can deal fire damage. Creatures you hit with unarmed attacks that deal fire damage are set aflame. Creatures who are aflame take your martial arts die plus your wisdom bonus damage at the end of their turns. This fire can be put out as an action by the creature or anyone adjacent to it, or by exposure to sufficient water or wind.

This is another powerful set of abilities. We can see from the popularity of the hexblade how important moving attack bonuses to a casting stat can be. I think given the relative importance of wisdom saves relative to charisma saves and the importance of perception skills that providing an incentive to boost wisdom migh be even stronger - on the other hand it would probably be at the expense of dexterity which is a strong enough stat itself.

And for each ability:

Earth - well knocking people prone is close to half of shield master, only shield master needs a bonus action also. Getting this for free in terms of action economy is very, very nice. Save type must be specified, but I assume a strength save? A nice boost to its power will be the auto-fail if you stun the target.

Air - So if earth was much like half of shield master, this is like half of mobility. It feels very air-like in theme at least (if not impact). Also the duration of this makes it very powerful indeed. You can basically force a lot of enemies to attack you with disadvantage... because you have a lot of attacks to land. In any kind of dueling scenario this is increadibly powerful. Now add on something like the sentinel feat so that if they try and move away to attack someone else instead they get stuck. I am not sure that one of the best tanking abilities in the game should be associated with the air element.

Water - This is interesting. 15ft reach will be screwing with attacks of opportunity somewhat but adding more versatility. I would say this is a very powerful ability on a less mobile class, but I fel the monk is mobile enough it doesn't need this boost to hit things in melee anyway. Now combine with bugbear for punching 20ft away... The slashing damage seems odd. I get it allows the slasher feat but it probably wont do much else and cold is usually the damage type associated with water (sometimes bludgeoning but adding that as an option for unarmed strikes seems redundant.

Fire - Not bad. Fire damage may be commonly resisted but this part is optional. Importantly, fire is also one of the most comon damage to have some kind of weakness to, such as vulnerability or troll regeneration etc.. And then they get set on fire. This is a Huuuuge potential damage boost. With flurry of blows and no cap on the number of creatures that can be hit you can be adding a lot of burnitude to enemies. If they extinguish it, then thats still a more than adequate trade. For "free" damage from an action economy perspective this is awesome. I would also add that with stunning potentially preventing a target from extinguishing the flame the effects could be really nasty.


My initial feeling is that this archetype feels very, very front loaded. I get you don't want to balance this against 4 elements but casting abilities to make full casters jealous (the ability to cast a spell and make an attack is something the valor bard doesn't get till level 14, and even then its just one attack and it doesn't have all the awesome riders/benefits that this class gets).

Then add in another strong ability as well and it seems a very attractive subclass at this level. Its a toss up between air and fire as to which I think seems the strongest. I would guess fire a lower levels but maybe air later.





Elemental Affinity
Starting at 6th level your affinity to your element gives you these benefits

Earth: You cannot be moved or knocked prone so long as you are touching stone or ground. While you are touching stone or ground, you have advantage on all saving throws.

Air: When you or an ally within 30' fails a dexterity saving throw or are hit by an attack, you can expend a reaction to add your wisdom bonus to the saving throw or the AC against the attack.

Water: Whenever you spend Ki, you heal a roll of your monk damage die plus the ki spent damage. If you are missed by an attack, you have advantage on your next attack on the attacker. If you pass a saving throw, the creature who caused that saving throw has disadvantage on the next saving throw you impose upon them.

Fire: Your unarmed attacks score critical hits on a 19 or 20, and deal an extra set of monk damage dice as fire damage. You become resistant to both fire and cold damage.

Earth - advantage on all saving throws? If you are touching the ground? Unless you take the monk on like Antaeus then this is obscenely powerful. I guess if you have a nautical campaign or something, this might not dominate - but generally its a huge boost. And being unable to be moved or knocked prone - well thats a nice bonus. Indeed I would compare to the drunken master ability of the same level to stand up from prone for 5ft of movement and still having all the disadvantages of being prone in the meantime.

Air - well this ability isn't as strong as the Paladin's aura of protection... so ther is that. Although it does have a longer range which makes this a really solid ability. I honestly really like this ability. Its powerful and unique without being overbearing.

Water - "damage die" =Martial arts die? This is quite a bit of healing over a day. Actually his is an obscenely colossal amount of healing over a day. If a cleric put all of their spell slots into casting cure wounds it would be casting 16 spells and 47 spell levels worth - for 47d8+80 poins of healing (assuming a wisdom bonus of +5 for the cleric) for about 211 damage healed. A water monk would get 33d8+33 healing for about 168 points of healing, so whilst its lot less,its not that much less and a) the monk is still using their Ki for whatever they are actually spending it on, and b) its not consuming their action to do so. I do like the idea of the water mon getting some healing abilities but tis seems a bit strong, and its only half of he ability. The other abilities are not bad either. Disadvantage on saves when a monk passes a save is great, but becomes obscene at level 14 when a monk can reroll the save and has proficiency in all saves.

Fire - I am not sure if the extra damage dice is part of the description of a critical or something more on top... but if its expanded critical range plus exra dice then thats pretty damn powerful. No other class does both. If you were to add in feats like elven accuracy then this goes totally nuts... and it isn't like monks don't have ways o get advantage on enemies as it is.... Oh and you get two resistances at this level as well.

These are some seriously powerful level 6 abilities.






Elemental Manifestation:

Starting at 11th level,

Earth: After every long or short rest, you gain temporary HP equal to twice your monk level.

Air: At the start of your turn, roll 1d20. You can use this to replace a saving throw you make or an attack roll made on you until the start of your next turn.

Water: Once, as an action, you can transfer any amount of damage, curses, magical effects or conditions to yourself from a willing or incapacitated creature you touch. Any damage you transfer is halved. If the curse, magical effect or condition was applied via a saving throw failure, you can repeat that saving throw with advantage to shrug off the effect.

Fire: You are under the effects of the spell Fire Shield(warm) without concentration. You can activate it as a bonus action, and it lasts until you deactivate it as a bonus action or become incapacitated.

Earth - this is a lot of temp HP. Its not totally crazy and it kind of fits the class. Still, its a powerful ability.

Air - OK, this seems reall powerful. You can already force disadvantage on attacks against you and this then lets you replace any succesful atack with this die? Or you can use it to pass a save? Mor ultimate air-monk tanking I guess! hat said, its is a fun ability, I just worry its a bit much with everything else.

Water - This is another really strong ability, even if you do nothing more with it. Taking an injured PC right back into the fight is awesome. Following on from getting the level 6 ability with is one of the best passive healing abilities I have seen, this would be really neat. Futhermore, it may mean that an enemy can't even avoid triggering your level 6 ability on givin them disadvantage on the save. If you wanted to get even more power out of abilities like this I guess you could be a race like a gnome, Yuan-ti or kalashtar to get advantage on the save. At level 14 you will be able to shake off a lot of effects thanks to your superior saves. Lets also not forget Stillness of mind and purity of body might help get more value out of this as well. With zero healing spells you are still an awesome healer. This is "once as an action" - is this once per short rest? Per long rest?

Fire - A concentration free version of a level 4 spell... I would look to the Fey ranger to guage power level. At the same level the ranger also gets access to a concentration free version of a spell, however its a level 3 spell not a level 4 spell, in exchange for the lack of concentration its duration is a fraction of the normal length... and its once per day no whenever the PC wants it. This is somewhat on the strong side - though I do note that the damage resistance is unimportant as it overlaps with existing features.


I think level eleven is still providing a lot of very strong features.







Elemental Mastery

Starting at 17th level, Benders are true masters of their element.

Earth: You regain your temporary from HP Elemental Manifestation at the start of each of your turns.

Air: You gain a fly speed equal to your movement speed. While you are flying, all attacks on you are at disadvantage and you have advantage on dexterity saving throws.

Water: When you are reduced to 0 HP, you cast mass heal. You can only do this once before completing a long rest.

Fire: As a bonus action you may transform into a Fire Elemental. You keep your own attributes, except you change creature type, replace your HP with its HP, gain +20 speed, the damage resistances/immunities/senses of the elemental and all of its abilities.

In this form, your fire elemental Touch attack deals 2 sets of monk damage dice as fire damage, and uses your wisdom bonus for attack and damage.

When killed or reduced to 0 HP, you revert from this form. Leftover damage is ignored, and any conditions on the elemental you wish to end also end.

You can do this once before completing a long or short rest.


Earth: Whut?! 34+ temp HP at the start of each turn? No action cost. No need to be conscious?

Air: Honestly, just a concentration free flying speed is a pretty adequate as a capstone for the likes of the draconic sorcerer

Water: Ok, I quite like this. Yes, its a strong ability but I think it is really leaning into the water identity. The healing interactions are all stacking up and you are soaking a LOT of damage.

Fire: More speed, an HP buffer, extra damage and a way to remove conditions... Its not bad a all.

...


Probably too strong. It is aimed at generating the feel of Avatar Benders.

You get 3 spells at each of 3/6/11/17 useable 1/rest, and can double it with Ki. These spells scale roughly as if you are a half caster, and can combo with an attack action.

Then I added flavourful abilities which are also pretty decent.

Overall, you'll end up as strong as a full caster, able to do things with your element more frequently and stronger than a full caster focused on that element could do. Which is way out of bounds for a monk.

...

Ok, I tuned it down.

1) 1 free casting per spell per long rest instead of per rest.
2) Limit 1 casting of each spell using ki per short rest (instead of how many ki you want to spend)

This keeps the "use a variety of effects" encouragement intact while dropping its power budget.

I do think it might just still be a teensy bi on the strong side. Each level seems to stack on powerful abilities and I think the growth in the availability of spells and Ki can fly a bit below the radar here. The thing is, I like a lot of the themes but I think there might be too much power.


I have no intention of balancing it against the 4 elements monk. The 4E monk has a fundamental error, in that as a subclass it adds basically zero power and just an alternative way to spend ki. The ratio of ki:effect is also mediocre compared to baseline monk abilities. This makes it sort of a trap.
I agree that would be a bad thing to do.



The above monk tries to avoid that trap; you'll want to use your elemental abilities, and a variety of ones, in fights. And you'll also want to do it while being a monk (punching things etc). The restriction on how many times you can use each spell helps prevent "well, I just spend ki on fireball". By level 20, it is possible you spend your each of your turns punching and casting fire spells, but that is very on-brand.
I think that even if the spells were all stripped out of the class what you would be left with would still be very powerful.





I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I just submitted version 2 of the Way of the Harbinger which is a pact magic using monk subclass. This idea of having both the spell slots and the ki points recover during a short rest felt very appropriate to me. The previous version just used the warlock invocation list, but the more I thought about it the more I felt that the monk's equivalent to invocations (which I call omens) should be unique to the class, which allowed for the inclusion of things that interacted with the monk's own ki powers. That said, all of the omens are new to this version, and so I would appreciate any feedback about whether they look balanced.

Sure, I will see if I can find it and take a look.

Thanks all for the input - I will really try and get some of my own ideas out soon!

[Greywander]

I am interested in soliciting views for a monk subclass. I can't promise it will be played, so as much looking for inspiration as anything else.

Mostly I am interested in how other people think though...

So what I am after is:

1) a monk
2) that has a strong incentive to have wisdom as the primary stat
3) that is roughly balanced against paladins, hexblades and clerics (the other party members)
4) has a more strongly magical theme than physical prowess (e.g. I would see shadowmonk and astral having this over kensei and drunken master)
5) rarely finding fights where subclass features are irrelevant (e.g. illusionist facing truesight enemies)
6) looks really fun to play!

Just really keen to see what people would come up with.
What are your thoughts on Astral Self?

Setting that aside, though, let's consider some broad points that could be used to construct a subclass with the traits you desire.


2) that has a strong incentive to have wisdom as the primary stat
Even the Astral Self still needs DEX for AC. Do you just want to boost WIS first, or do you not want to have to boost DEX at all? If the former, then simply allowing attacks to use WIS like the Astral Self does should suffice. If the latter, then you're probably looking at some kind of armored monk build. How much do you care about losing Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement? Personally, I feel like those features should be usable so long as you're proficient with the armor, same as casting in armor. This could easily be made a feature of the subclass, if you didn't take it as a general monk houserule.


3) that is roughly balanced against paladins, hexblades and clerics (the other party members)
Ideally, every class is balanced against every other class. In practice, it's not that simple. I don't think this is a useful parameter that could inform the design of the subclass, since class balance can be all over the place, even within a single class. This basically amounts to "make sure it's not too strong or too weak," which should go without saying.


4) has a more strongly magical theme than physical prowess (e.g. I would see shadowmonk and astral having this over kensei and drunken master)
Shadow and Astral Self both have a very strong thematic identity. There are infinite ways this could go, so narrowing down what kind of theme you're looking for would help tremendously. Not just on the theme, but also consider questions like melee vs. ranged, damage vs. defense vs. support, single-target vs. AoE and so on. You should have both a strong flavor identity and a strong mechanical identity.


5) rarely finding fights where subclass features are irrelevant (e.g. illusionist facing truesight enemies)
Does this mean you want something with more of a combat focus? Shadow is more focused on out of combat utility. This would be a good point to nail down, the proportion of combat vs. noncombat features you want. It's also worth noting that only the blandest of features are universally applicable; anything that's interesting or fun to use is going to have some limits in its applicability. For example, I'm touching up a witch class, and one of the subclass capstones is going to be permanent Tree Stride, which is great if you're anywhere with trees but useless without any trees. When you're able to use it, it will be really fun, but it's precisely because it has limits that make it feel good to use.

Instead, I think it makes more sense to give the subclass some kind of gimmick where the counters to that gimmick will be uncommon, and then give you the tools to deal with those counters, albeit not as effectively as if you could employ your main gimmick. Conquest paladins are a good example: even when something is immune to fear, they're still a paladin and will kick butt. Not being able to use their fear gimmick certainly makes them less effective, but they're still far from ineffective.

So put some thought into those questions and see if you can bring a concept into focus. No point in working on a subclass you won't like, so the more we know what you're looking for, the more willing we'll be to design something for you. Or maybe you'll discover how much fun homebrewing is and decide to make it yourself.


I got very confused with this, trying to wrap my hear round it then I realised this seems to be more in the 3rd edition format than the 5th edition.
You should be able to edit the OP to select which system this thread is intended for. There wasn't really any indication, so that poster probably assumed this was a 3.x thread.

[kosh49]

Here is the link:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651406-Way-ot-the-Harbinger-V2-0-a-pact-magic-using-monk-subclass-PEACH