Which monk subclass should I go for?

[Klorox]

Which monk class fits this theme best?

I’m playing a dwarf monk who is trying to resurrect an ancient order of dwarven monks dedicated to Moradin.

I can’t decide between open hand, drunken, or kensei (because what’s more dwarven than a battle axe?).

I’ve never played a monk before. I don’t care about making the best character possible or anything, I just want to make sure my character isn’t a gimp either.

TIA.

[LudicSavant]

Which monk class fits this theme best?

I’m playing a dwarf monk who is trying to resurrect an ancient order of dwarven monks dedicated to Moradin.

I can’t decide between open hand, drunken, or kensei (because what’s more dwarven than a battle axe?).

I’ve never played a monk before. I don’t care about making the best character possible or anything, I just want to make sure my character isn’t a gimp either.

TIA.

First thing, any dwarf Monk can use a battle axe as a Monk weapon, it's not a kensei-specific thing. Get the proficiency from your race (dwarf) and use it as a Monk weapon via the Tasha's feature, Dedicated Weapon. Consider Mountain Dwarf for the ability to get 18 Dex /18 Wis by level 4.

You'll definitely want to be using those Tasha's features, because they are sorely needed buffs for the class. Also so that you can swap out your racial stat bonuses, because Monks rely more heavily on their stats (both Dex and Wis) than just about any other class.

Drunken Master Monk is generally underpowered and, disappointingly, doesn't really do much to help with the Jackie Chan flavor. IMHO you'd be better off RPing a different Monk as a drinker rather than actually being Drunken Master.

Kensei is really best suited to a ranged playstyle using Gunner and/or Sharpshooter with KFA. Warrior monks famed for their mastery of black powder were a thing in real life, and Moradin is big on engineering, so if you deem a black powder monk as fitting your concept then this is well worth considering and is likely the mechanically best option for any of the three subclasses listed.

Open Hand is best used to combo with teammates who can capitalize on you knocking people around the map (think Clerics that like Spirit Guardians, Evokers that like Sculpted Hazards, things like that).

Aside from the subclasses you mentioned, you might consider Shadow for an "ancient order of diggers in the underdark" theme. It's also one of the strongest Monk subclasses right now (regardless of whether you prefer melee or range), assuming it's built properly. Make the stage go dark and Satsui no Hado people with an axe, if that's your jam. Mercy is also top shelf, and can grow to be a surprisingly meaty protector and can pretty easily be reflavored Moradin-style.

[sithlordnergal]

I'll be honest, I like Open Hand the most. It has some handy control options with its Open Hand Technique, Wholeness of Body is a handy heal when you really need it, and the auto-Sanctuary at the start of each day can be useful depending on what you're facing. Its a pretty solid Monk pick, through and through. Kensei and Drunken Master are fun too, with Drunken Master being more focused on mobility, and Kensei being focused on their weapon.

I've only ever seen a Drunken Master once, but it was heavily reliant on mobility and some minor battlefield control. Kensei's are particularly interesting since it makes your Kensei weapons magical, which is handy if you're low on magic weapons or choose a rare weapon. Additionally, they're one of the few ways you can improve a magic weapon that you have. If you find a weapon that doesn't have a bonus to hit and damage, like a Flametongue, you can turn it into a +3 Flametongue at level 11. That said, if you use the Dedicated Weapon rule variant, you can actually use a Battleaxe as an Open Hand Monk or Drunken Master and treat it as a Monk Weapon.


If you want a meme idea...you could go 1 level of Fighter, take the Unarmed Fighting Style, then go Monk. Just wear Heavy Armor and a Shield, then charge in and do your Monk stuff. The only things you'll lose are Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement. You keep all of the other class and subclass features, such as Ki, Stunning Strike, and whatever else you have. And by taking the Unarmed Fighting Style, you can use Flurry of Blows without losing the damage you'd normally have from Martial Arts. If you went this route, I'd go Kensei.

[KorvinStarmast]

First thing, any dwarf Monk can use a battle axe as a Monk weapon, it's not a kensei-specific thing.
Only if Tasha's is an available resource. Not all tables put up with it.

Get the proficiency from your race (dwarf) and use it as a Monk weapon via the Tasha's feature, Dedicated Weapon. Consider Mountain Dwarf for the ability to get 18 Dex /18 Wis by level 4.
You care to explain how to do that with a Mountain Dwarf? (I think Hill dwarf might be more doable at that point).


Open Hand is best used to combo with teammates who can capitalize on you knocking people around the map (think Clerics that like Spirit Guardians, Evokers that like Sculpted Hazards, things like that).

I like your idea on shadow, though.

[Keravath]

Only if Tasha's is an available resource. Not all tables put up with it.

You care to explain how to do that with a Mountain Dwarf? (I think Hill dwarf might be more doable at that point).



I like your idea on shadow, though.

Mountain dwarf gets +2 to two stats. Use the custom lineage in Tasha's to assign those to dex and wis. Take a +1, +1 for dex and wis at level 4. Voila :)

I used the same technique for a mountain dwarf barbarian but in that case the +2 str and +2 con didn't need to be moved :)

However, the monk will probably need a 14 in con which will leave them with 2 8's and a 10 in other stats if using point buy.

[Schwann145]

Gotta agree with Ludic here on several points and recommend the Mountain Dwarf Kensai Gunk (Gun Monk), assuming guns are allowed in your game.
It's incredibly thematically on-point as a devoted follower of Moradin, it's a great switch-hitter since you can treat that Battleaxe as a Monk weapon, and Mountain Dwarf getting to start with 2 17s (assuming point buy) is about as good as it gets for a Monk who strongly wants two Feats (an expensive ask for a class that really wants ASIs).

A small dip into Fighter (1 or 2 levels) for a Weapon Style and/or Action Surge is also something to strongly consider if you go the ranged route (Archery Style is incredibly strong on it's own, but goes a long way to offset that Sharpshooter penalty of -5). Also, getting Second Wind on a Monk is quite valuable since your HD is only a d8. And, of course, Action Surge is a powerhouse ability that basically everyone wants for obvious reasons (an extra free Action is biiiig).
Alternatively, you could take a bigger (3 level) dip into Gloomstalker Ranger and pick up a bunch of great stuff, most of which remains on-point for a Dwarf!
•Favored Enemy for those traditional Dwarven enemies like Goblins, Orcs, Giants, etc. or the Tasha's version, Favored Foe, which will increase your damage on one (of any) target for a minute.
•Natural Explorer for better, well, everything, while in a specific terrain (such as Hills or Underdark, both very suited for a Dwarf!) or the Tasha's version, Deft Explorer, which will give you the equivalent of Expertise in a chosen skill as well as two additional languages.
•A Fighting Style; Archery again highly recommended.
•Spellcasting, giving you access to some 1st Level Ranger spells.
•Primeval Awareness which lets you sense creatures of various types within 1 mile (6 in Favored Terrain) of you, or the Tasha's Version which adds Speak With Animals as a free known spell usable once for free per long rest.
•Gloom Stalker Magic which adds Disguise Self to your known spells for free.
•Dread Ambusher which increases your Initiative by your Wisdom (which will be high!), increases your walking speed on the first turn of combat, and gives you a free first-turn extra attack with a damage bonus!
•Umbral Sight which improves the distance of your Darkvision to 90ft and makes you invisible to anyone using their own Darkvision against you! Very appropriate for a tunnel-dwelling Dwarf, eh?

The Multiclassing requirements are incredibly easy to meet as a Monk (Dex 13 for Fighter, Dex/Wis 13 for Ranger). Personally I'm a huge fan of adding the 3 Ranger levels, but 3 levels is a pretty significant dip, so if you're more interested in the Monk levels, that's something to consider.

[Klorox]

First thing, any dwarf Monk can use a battle axe as a Monk weapon, it's not a kensei-specific thing. Get the proficiency from your race (dwarf) and use it as a Monk weapon via the Tasha's feature, Dedicated Weapon. Consider Mountain Dwarf for the ability to get 18 Dex /18 Wis by level 4.

You'll definitely want to be using those Tasha's features, because they are sorely needed buffs for the class. Also so that you can swap out your racial stat bonuses, because Monks rely more heavily on their stats (both Dex and Wis) than just about any other class.

Drunken Master Monk is generally underpowered and, disappointingly, doesn't really do much to help with the Jackie Chan flavor. IMHO you'd be better off RPing a different Monk as a drinker rather than actually being Drunken Master.

Kensei is really best suited to a ranged playstyle using Gunner and/or Sharpshooter with KFA. Warrior monks famed for their mastery of black powder were a thing in real life, and Moradin is big on engineering, so if you deem a black powder monk as fitting your concept then this is well worth considering and is likely the mechanically best option for any of the three subclasses listed.

Open Hand is best used to combo with teammates who can capitalize on you knocking people around the map (think Clerics that like Spirit Guardians, Evokers that like Sculpted Hazards, things like that).

Aside from the subclasses you mentioned, you might consider Shadow for an "ancient order of diggers in the underdark" theme. It's also one of the strongest Monk subclasses right now (regardless of whether you prefer melee or range), assuming it's built properly. Make the stage go dark and Satsui no Hado people with an axe, if that's your jam. Mercy is also top shelf, and can grow to be a surprisingly meaty protector and can pretty easily be reflavored Moradin-style.

Thank you to everyone who’s replied. I greatly appreciate it.

It’s been a while since I played 5e, and I’ve never used Tasha’s at the table. I’ll ask about the battle axe being a monk weapon, I didn’t know that was an option without choosing kensei (and, in all honesty, that’s what made me want to choose kensei). If I can do this, my choice will be much easier.

If tthis is allowed, do I need to make any sacrifices or anything to make the battle axe a monk weapon?

Another question: isn’t there a way to get a fighting style without multiclassing? I’d ideally like to lean into the Kung fu aspect of the monk (he looks like a short, stocky Pai Mei), and I’d like to have maximum levels in this class.

We used a different array (the DM called it a heroic array) and my stats are 12/18/16/10/17/8.

Last additional question: if I hit level 4, and then level 8, how should I spend my ASI? I think the best bet is to first sink it into a 20 DEX, but is there a half feat that is good for monks to give a +1 WIS? Or, I could go +1/+1 CON/WIS and hunt for a good half feat that bumps CON.

Thanks a lot again all.

[Greywander]

If tthis is allowed, do I need to make any sacrifices or anything to make the battle axe a monk weapon?
It's the Dedicated Weapon optional feature, gained at 2nd level. You aren't required to give anything up, you just get it for free if your DM allows it. You do need to be proficient in the weapon, but that's not an issue for a dwarf.


Another question: isn’t there a way to get a fighting style without multiclassing? I’d ideally like to lean into the Kung fu aspect of the monk (he looks like a short, stocky Pai Mei), and I’d like to have maximum levels in this class.
There's the new Fighting Initiate feat. Given how ASI-starved monks are, I think you'd be better off skipping fighting styles or dipping 1 level into fighter. If you do decide to go for it, there's a new Blind Fighting style that gives you blindsight out to 10 feet; really nice on any melee build, particularly if you (or your party) have ways to create darkness, fog, smoke, or other area obscurement.


Last additional question: if I hit level 4, and then level 8, how should I spend my ASI? I think the best bet is to first sink it into a 20 DEX, but is there a half feat that is good for monks to give a +1 WIS? Or, I could go +1/+1 CON/WIS and hunt for a good half feat that bumps CON.
Maxing DEX and WIS are both important for monks. DEX influences your AC and your attack and damage rolls, WIS influences your AC and your ki saves. I'd make boosting those a priority. See if your DM will allow a free feat at 1st level. Alternatively, I make a strong case in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651189-Slowing-down-ASI-progression-while-giving-out-more-feats) for why you should be doubling up on ASIs and feats, and how you could do so while simultaneously slowing down power growth instead of speeding it up. It's a long shot, but it doesn't hurt to at least ask the DM, and monk was specifically one of the classes I had in mind when I posted that thread.

As for half feats, here's some options you could consider:

Gunner. +1 DEX, gives firearm proficiency, removes the penalty for making ranged attacks while in melee.

Crusher. +1 STR or CON, 1/turn push an enemy 5 feet when you deal bludgeoning damage, bludgeoning crits give advantage on attacks against that target for one round. Use a hammer instead of an axe so both weapon strikes and unarmed strikes can benefit.

Dwarven Fortitude. +1 CON, can spend a hit die to heal any time you take the Dodge action. Patient Defense was already pretty baller, now it's flat out broken.

Observant. +1 INT or WIS, +5 to passive Investigation and Perception, you can read lips.

Skill Expert. +1 any, gain one skill proficiency, turn one skill proficiency into expertise.

There are other half feats out there, but these are the ones that are generally considered to be pretty good on monks.


Which monk class fits this theme best?
There isn't really a good monk subclass with a strong thematic connection to Moradin, the forge, crafting in general, or fire. The closest is probably actually Sun Soul, as it does have a loose connection to fire. Sun Souls kind of suck, though. Kensei works as a general weapon-focused monk. Kenseis are also considered a bit suboptimal, though they're far from terrible. Astral Self might fit, if you treat the astral self as some sort of minor manifestation of Moradin or something.

TBH, I'd look at them strictly from a mechanical perspective to make your choice, then figure out a way to refluff it to match the theme.

[Klorox]

TBH, I'd look at them strictly from a mechanical perspective to make your choice, then figure out a way to refluff it to match the theme.

Well, if I did follow this, what monk classes are the best?

[LudicSavant]

If tthis is allowed, do I need to make any sacrifices or anything to make the battle axe a monk weapon? The only opportunity cost to taking a battleaxe as your Dedicated Weapon is that you can't take something else as your Dedicated Weapon. Like a shortbow. Or a gun.

If you want to be a melee Monk, a dedicated battleaxe is a solid enough choice, as you can wield it in two hands and it'll give you a 1d10 damage die.


TBH, I'd look at them strictly from a mechanical perspective to make your choice, then figure out a way to refluff it to match the theme.

Agreed.


Another question: isn’t there a way to get a fighting style without multiclassing? Fighting Initiate, from Tasha's.


Well, if I did follow this, what monk classes are the best?

My vote for best Monk subclasses goes to Mercy and Shadow.

Roughly:

Mercy: Smite-like mechanic not only offers ki-efficient extra damage, but also gives people Disadvantage to hit (anyone in the party) with no save when you punch them. Also gets a genuinely beefy healing feature. Can even tank if you want (especially from 11+).
Shadow: For taking advantage of the shadows and converting your whole party into a ninja strike team. Also the best Monk at mining through dungeon walls :smallwink:.
Kensei: Sort of the "samurai sharpshooter" of gunks; reliable, but not a lot of frills.
Astral Self: If you want your Monk to grapple, this is the one that does that.
Long Death: Janky, but the jank can potentially be played around or exploited. Very defense-oriented.
Open Hand: Best used with party comps that can really capitalize on knocking people around the map. Can shoryuken people with Crusher.
Ascendant Dragon: Weird to rate because of how uneven its progression is. Plays like it barely has subclass features until level 11, after which point pretty much all of its stuff scales into relevance and it's okay (comparable to some of the ones I rated over it).

Pick what sort of thing you're going for mechanically and it can pretty easily be refluffed into an order of Moradin.


As for half feats, here's some options you could consider:

Gunner. +1 DEX, gives firearm proficiency, removes the penalty for making ranged attacks while in melee.

Crusher. +1 STR or CON, 1/turn push an enemy 5 feet when you deal bludgeoning damage, bludgeoning crits give advantage on attacks against that target for one round. Use a hammer instead of an axe so both weapon strikes and unarmed strikes can benefit.

Dwarven Fortitude. +1 CON, can spend a hit die to heal any time you take the Dodge action. Patient Defense was already pretty baller, now it's flat out broken.

Observant. +1 INT or WIS, +5 to passive Investigation and Perception, you can read lips.

Skill Expert. +1 any, gain one skill proficiency, turn one skill proficiency into expertise.

Replace Dwarven Fortitude on that list with Aberrant Dragonmark (Shield). Gives you the same +1 Con, but also, well, Shield. Fluff it as a mark of the forge, you take a "tekkai stance" and no-sell attacks with a raiment of dwarven armor forged from your ki, and can even burn people with its spiritual flames. Get a useful utility cantrip like Control Flames while you're at it.

[Evaar]

Also remember the Dwarves have a larger pantheon than just Moradin. By all means go with him if that’s what you want, but there are different twists and flavors to explore while retaining the “ancient order of dwarves dedicated to a particular god” theme.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Morndinsamman