Telekinesis vs Bigby’s Hand (with video)

[yisopo]

I have just seen this video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZwDus5u7_8




What do you think about this comparison? If you have to choose one of them, which one would you choose and why?

[KorvinStarmast]

I have just seen this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZwDus5u7_8
What do you think about this comparison? If you have to choose one of them, which one would you choose and why? Very nice analysis. And if one is playing a bard, Jack of All Trades adds a bonus (1/2 your proficiency bonus) to the ability check. Hence my previous suggestion to take Telekinesis versus Bigby's Hand remains in place, although the flexibility of Bigby's hand is very nice. Bilbron does a good job of pointing out that is a little bit build/situation dependent.

[Segev]

The one big thing he missed was in his comments about using Bigby's hand to manipulate objects. He indicated it was a DM house ruling, not the RAW, to permit this, but he missed a key segment of the rules text for the spell:

"The hand lasts for the spell's duration, and it moves at your command, mimicking the movements of your own hand."

Now, the several specific things you can do with it outline pretty much all of the mechanical interactions you can have based on it. "Pretty much" because theoretically there are a few ability-check-based things you can do. But it mimics the movements of your hand, so anything you can do with one hand, you can do with Bigby's hand. It takes your bonus action to move it to location, but then it does whatever your hand is doing. With the exception of Interposing Hand, it doesn't move except for that 60 foot bonus action movement, so you can't have it reactively move (again, except for Interposing Hand). But anything you can do with a Large hand that mimics your own hand movements, you can do with Bigby's hand. And you ARE actually using your own hand to do things. The DM may assign a higher DC to tasks involving fine manipulation or which are generally two-hand jobs, but you can still try it. It almost certainly takes your action separately from the bonus action to move it to take the physical action with your hand that the Bigby's hand is mimicking, too. Since you'd be doing that action as an action with your hand if you weren't puppetting a magical force object, anyway.

This goes both ways, though, too: it mimics the movements of your hand, so even the listed options for what it can do require you to be holding your hand in position for it. Grasping hand requires you to actually make a grasping motion. Interposing hand requires you to hold your hand in whatever position it is assuming to block the way (though I suppose that's less problematic since it could be gesticulating wildly as you move your real hand about...but the image of the caster holding up his hand in a "talk to the hand" gesture to enact the interposing hand option is amusing). Shoving hand requires you to make a shoving motion. The spell has a semi-unwritten, or at least subtly-written, requirement that one of your hands stay free. Certainly, if you're using Grasping Hand and then try to use that hand for anything that requires letting go of the "grasp" formation of your hand, it should end the grapple on the target.

I do not see anything preventing using Grasping Hand one round and then Interposing Hand the next, and nothing requiring you to give up your grip on the first target to block the second, so that should work to help control two enemies with one spell, at least. Not one action/round, but one spell.

A question I have on interposing hand, though, is: it moves to stay between the target and you, but if the target exceeds the hand's strength score, the target can push through the hand's space as if it were difficult terrain. The first intuition I had was that this lets the target spend 20 feet of movement to move through the 10 feet of the hand's space, and then he's free to move. But if he were moving laterally - not through the hand's space towards you - the hand would move to stay between you and him (preventing him from coming any closer to you, e.g. by going around the hand). Does the hand continually move while he's pushing through it's space? Is he not shoving "through" the hand so much as shoving the hand backwards, thus making the hand's space shift to always be between the target and the caster, so it's "difficult terrain" all the way in towards the caster?

Also, you can theoretically use the hand as a sort of bonus action flying carpet, standing on it or even gently grasping yourself (who cares if you're grappled if you aren't planning on moving, yourself)?


On telekinesis, now, it definitely wins in the fine manipulation department, though the higher strength of Bigby's hand might factor in if you're trying strength checks rather than any other sort. Using it for pseudo-flight actually imposes Restrained condition on you, or on your target, so it's not as helpful there as an aid to allies. Of course, there's the actual fly spell, which does that better, anyway, than either of these (albeit you could possibly fly 60 feet, land on the hand, and then have the hand move 60 feet as a bonus action).

For what it's worth, telekinesis also doesn't have a material component, making it harder to "disarm" you to prevent you from casting it.

1000 lbs. is heavier than the carry capacity of Bigby's hand, too. The hand's large size and strength of 26 lets it lift 780 lbs., so despite the lower strength score with which telekinesis performs ability checks, it lifts significantly more weight.

I think it's ultimately not just build-specific but concept-specific. What do you want to use the spell to do?

[Unoriginal]

he missed a key segment of the rules text for the spell:

"The hand lasts for the spell's duration, and it moves at your command, mimicking the movements of your own hand."

Now, the several specific things you can do with it outline pretty much all of the mechanical interactions you can have based on it. "Pretty much" because theoretically there are a few ability-check-based things you can do. But it mimics the movements of your hand, so anything you can do with one hand, you can do with Bigby's hand. It takes your bonus action to move it to location, but then it does whatever your hand is doing. With the exception of Interposing Hand, it doesn't move except for that 60 foot bonus action movement, so you can't have it reactively move (again, except for Interposing Hand). But anything you can do with a Large hand that mimics your own hand movements, you can do with Bigby's hand. And you ARE actually using your own hand to do things. The DM may assign a higher DC to tasks involving fine manipulation or which are generally two-hand jobs, but you can still try it. It almost certainly takes your action separately from the bonus action to move it to take the physical action with your hand that the Bigby's hand is mimicking, too. Since you'd be doing that action as an action with your hand if you weren't puppetting a magical force object, anyway.

This goes both ways, though, too: it mimics the movements of your hand, so even the listed options for what it can do require you to be holding your hand in position for it. Grasping hand requires you to actually make a grasping motion. Interposing hand requires you to hold your hand in whatever position it is assuming to block the way (though I suppose that's less problematic since it could be gesticulating wildly as you move your real hand about...but the image of the caster holding up his hand in a "talk to the hand" gesture to enact the interposing hand option is amusing). Shoving hand requires you to make a shoving motion. The spell has a semi-unwritten, or at least subtly-written, requirement that one of your hands stay free. Certainly, if you're using Grasping Hand and then try to use that hand for anything that requires letting go of the "grasp" formation of your hand, it should end the grapple on the target.

Needing a free hand to use Bigby's Hand has a lot of consequences, when you think about it. I never read that spell carefully until now, it seems.

[Segev]

Needing a free hand to use Bigby's Hand has a lot of consequences, when you think about it. I never read that spell carefully until now, it seems.

It is in what a lot of people might dismiss as "fluff text," but 5e doesn't technically HAVE fluff text. "Flavor is free," so a lot of mechanical truths can easily be homebrewed into something else as long as they don't make the spell more or less powerful than it should be, but this text is in the spell, and it both makes the spell stronger and more versatile in one way, and a lot more demanding on the caster in another.

That said, you can probably use Clenched Fist, Interposing Hand, and Forceful Hand without worrying about your hand's shape. A hand clenching a crossbow may have an odd "shape" it's resting in, but it can still block the way or bat at somebody. Grasping Hand will definitely require you to clench your own fist, though, or otherwise justify the grapple with how you shape the hand to hold the target.

[Witty Username]

Hm, I am not sure I agree that Bigby's hand is less damage than the Summons, at least not generally.
I think once they qualify for multiattack (either by being a 4th+ level, or by upcasting) it does have more by round damage, but until then the individual attacks aren't very strong.
Also, the hand is stickier, 60 ft move and attack is better than the movement options for all but Fey and devil class Fiends. AC 20 is better than all of them, and the HP of the Summons are pretty low, (looks like the highest one is 60 with Fiend, I feel like wizard maximum at level would be higher than most of them. At least for optimized builds).
This seems like that would make the hand more likely to do more turns of damage.

There is precasting, which favors the Summons though with the one hour casting time.

Eh, this may be disillusionment talking though. I was interested when the Summons came out but I feel like they lost their luster. The Conjure spells feel more immersive and titanic. And the chaos of summon lesser demons and greater demon can dramatically change the tone of a scene.

Hm, a quick note, if you successfully grab a creature with the hand when you cast it, you can do the 2d6+mod damage in the same turn since the bonus action clause is a separate one. Not big but that does possibly make it the most attractive turn 1 move for it.

[icedraikon]

Hm, a quick note, if you successfully grab a creature with the hand when you cast it, you can do the 2d6+mod damage in the same turn since the bonus action clause is a separate one. Not big but that does possibly make it the most attractive turn 1 move for it.

This was covered in the video, but since the text of Bigby's states "subsequent" turn, you cannot Action cast -> Bonus Action clench on the same turn.

[yisopo]

"The hand lasts for the spell's duration, and it moves at your command, mimicking the movements of your own hand."

I agree this part implies you can use Bigby's Hnd to manipulate objects. But I'm not so sure you need to use your hand in order to command it.

Anyway, I'm torn about whether to choose one or the other. What I'm looking for is which one is better for moving/blocking enemies.


Bigby's Hand PRO

- 120 feet of range instead of 60. I think Bilbron underestimated this variable.
- 60 feet of movement instead of 30. The same as above: this was underestimated.
- It provides a bit of battlefield control (10 by 10 ft)
- It is (statistically) easier, for the caster, to push/grasp.
- The enemy must use their action to try to free from the grasp.
- It uses your bonus action. (As a monoclass wizard, I don't have great bonus action options to use.)
- It doesn't require sight.

Telekinesis PRO
- You can grasp and push in the same turn.
- Restrained is much much more better than grappled.
- You can take worn/carried object from enemies.
- It may last 10 minutes (potentially multiple combats) instead of 1.
- You cannot destroy Telekinesis.


If it weren't for the restrained condition, I would prefer Bigby's Hand without hesitation. But the restrained condition is so strong that it may overshadow all the good things from Bigby's Hand.

[Segev]

One more thing in favor of actual summons: Bigby's hand has even more restrictive move-and-act rules than 3.5 movement: you can move it, then have it act, but you can't have it act, then move, nor do move-act-move like a summon could. The wording of the spell is quite specific: you use your bonus action to move the hand and "then" take one of the "following" actions.

However, there's a slight saving grace: nothing in it prevents you from changing what "shape" the hand is in (via moving your own hand whose movements it mimics) mid-move, nor requires you to move it all at once. So, while the specific combat actions must happen AFTER the movement of the bonus action, you can use your bonus action to cause the hand to move, use your action or object interaction to move your own hand to have the hand do whatever you're spending your action on (e.g. picking up an object, writing in the dirt, possibly even making an attack with an oversized weapon, or whatever), and then finish the move and still do the hand's own combat option. This may sound cheesy, but you're spending your own action on this, now, so you're not actually doing anything more than you could, economy-wise, with a different spell to cast on your action. The attack is especially questionable, but all you're doing at most is attacking with a bigger weapon than if you made the attack with your own hand.


"The hand lasts for the spell's duration, and it moves at your command, mimicking the movements of your own hand."

I agree this part implies you can use Bigby's Hnd to manipulate objects. But I'm not so sure you need to use your hand in order to command it.You don't need to use your hand to command it; you do need to use your hand to have it assume any particular shape. This is mostly only relevant to grasping hand, unless you're trying to take advantage of using your action to pick things up and manipulate them with the hand.

As a side note, Bigby's hand is an excellent example of how badly 5e handled Metamagic. A sorcerer being so good with this spell that he can conjure two of them and use them together sounds like exactly the sort of thing Metamagic is supposed to emulate, but Twin Spell doesn't work because Bigby's hand doesn't target "one creature."


Anyway, I'm torn about whether to choose one or the other. What I'm looking for is which one is better for moving/blocking enemies.

(...)

If it weren't for the restrained condition, I would prefer Bigby's Hand without hesitation. But the restrained condition is so strong that it may overshadow all the good things from Bigby's Hand.It is pretty nice. I think the fact you find it that good, but still questionable which is better, means they did a good job placing both spells at 5th level.

[Unoriginal]

My headcanon is that Mordenkainen's Sword is the result of Mordenkainen attempting to one-up Bigby and failing miserably.

[Chronos]

I think that, while you're commanding it, it mimics your hand's movement, but you don't have to always be commanding it. If you're not commanding it, it'll just keep doing whatever it was, but you're then free to use your own hand for whatever without it mimicking it.

[Segev]

I think that, while you're commanding it, it mimics your hand's movement, but you don't have to always be commanding it. If you're not commanding it, it'll just keep doing whatever it was, but you're then free to use your own hand for whatever without it mimicking it.
Possibly within the wording of the spell, sure. Not how I'd rule it, based on the strict text, but I can see others ruling it your way without violating or house-ruling the text.

[tiornys]

This was covered in the video, but since the text of Bigby's states "subsequent" turn, you cannot Action cast -> Bonus Action clench on the same turn.
The description of the Clench bonus action is not in the list of commands, but instead contained in the description of the Grab command. That puts it firmly in TRDSC/ask your DM territory as far as whether or not you can use it the same turn as casing the spell.

[Witty Username]

This was covered in the video, but since the text of Bigby's states "subsequent" turn, you cannot Action cast -> Bonus Action clench on the same turn.
Not quite, the bonus action clause for crushing is separate under grasping hand and doesn’t have a timing restriction, if you want to crush it is allowed, anything other than crush, you have to wait.
Also, based on how it is written, you can't move the hand while crushing, so it's not all roses with that reading.

On, Mordenkienen's sword:
So, I personally like framing it as a user manual thing. So, a bit of HEMA trivia I heard at some point, fencing masters when they made manuals for sword fighting they would sometimes include joke moves (apparently something about tripping people up for people who copied the guide without context).

[Unoriginal]

On, Mordenkienen's sword:
So, I personally like framing it as a user manual thing. So, a bit of HEMA trivia I heard at some point, fencing masters when they made manuals for sword fighting they would sometimes include joke moves (apparently something about tripping people up for people who copied the guide without context).

You mean like the (in)famous "to end them rightly, unscrew your sword's pommel and throw it at your opponent's face"?

I don't think Mordenkainen has the self-derision necessary to do such a thing. IMO He's too arrogant to allow a joke move to taint his portfolio, especially since he would be someone thinking others are too dumb to get such a joke and such would think he really thought this move was worthy.

"Tried to one-up Bigby and failed" fits both Mordenkainen's characterization (or at least, the one 5e gave him) and the effects of the spell much more, IMO.

[Witty Username]

You mean like the (in)famous "to end them rightly, unscrew your sword's pommel and throw it at your opponent's face"?

I don't think Mordenkainen has the self-derision necessary to do such a thing. IMO He's too arrogant to allow a joke move to taint his portfolio, especially since he would be someone thinking others are too dumb to get such a joke and such would think he really thought this move was worthy.

"Tried to one-up Bigby and failed" fits both Mordenkainen's characterization (or at least, the one 5e gave him) and the effects of the spell much more, IMO.

Yeah, that was my line of thinking.
Fair enough, I can personally see it either way, thinking so little of his opponents to think it would be a real spell in there opinion, or being so pompous himself that it was a failure of his own abilities or delusional thinking on his own part that it was effective. It is very hard to take him seriously to any degree, I grant.

[Chronos]

And then Bigby commissioned a 30' long sword from a master blacksmith, and picked it up with his Hand to duel Mord.