Which OOTS Books Do You Prefer and Why?

[Hyoi]

...........

[hamishspence]

Don't forget Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales. Though to be fair, that's pretty low on my list - plenty of funny moments, but it's not as essential as the prequels are.

[Peelee]

Good Deeds Gone Unpunished. What can I say, I'm a sucker for the heroes winning by acting heroically.

ETA: Start of Darkness as runner-up. Villains acting villainous is also delightful, especially when one is tragic.

[hroþila]

Either GDGU or SoD I think

[littlebum2002]

Good Deeds Go Unpunished is definitely the best prequel book, and Durkon has my favorite backstory so I have to go with his book. The rest of the Order's backstories are pretty common tropes (inattentive parent, evil father, parent who only trusts relatives, etc, all have been done before). But Durkon's story is totally unique and very specific to this setting and that's why it's the best for me.

[brian 333]

I have to go with Don't Split The Party. So much fantastic background development for so many characters. We got Roy, Haley, and Elan all fighting over the most RPEXP, then Vaarsuvius steps up to the plate and knocks it out of the park. I count at least four main storylines, and who knows how many subplots woven into the tapestry. It really requires reading it through writer's eyes to see how narratively complex it was, but it comes off smooth. Awesome story crafting.

Plus, Therkla.

[Mike Havran]

For me the comic reached the top plateau in chapters covered by strips between 600-834; that would make BRitF my favourite book and DStP the second. It's difficult for me to pinpoint the zenith more closely. After that section, the comic seems to me to be in slight but continuous decline.

SoD was great but would have benefited enormously had the Giant decided to write it later, perhaps in the middle of DstP.

[Robots]

BRitF is probably my favorite arc in the comic. Though DStP and SoD are my lesser favorites. I have yet to read GDGU... I wanted to get the physical version and not the e-book, but I may have to get the e-book.

[Fyraltari]

GDGU is the best for me. Especially O-Chul's backstory.

[Coppercloud]

I would like to nominate three books for different reasons:

Good Deeds Gone Unpunished has unlikely heroes on important but not "world-saving important" quests, which is a nice change of pace, and features great stories and backstories of good people doing what good they can. I can't help but feel a lot of nostalgia and dramatic irony since most of the Azurites and hobgoblins we meet are "now" (if you see what I mean) as dead as Thac0. It nevertheless has multiple happy endings and an overall positive feel, while the main comic has known and unknown threats looming everywhere and a lot of pressure on our heroes' shoulders. What's no to love between its great art and humor and the cursed bananas? It also contains several quotes that perfectly sum up O-Chul's morals and that I'm going to shamelessly reuse one day. Thog's preface is the cherry on top.

Start of Darkness is just the opposite, featuring bad people acting bad. It really deepens the main villains' characters and motivations, and spells out how horrible Xykon is and how flawed Redcloak became, while making the latter somewhat relatable. It also provides insight on the MitD's nature and other elements of the main comic. The book really contrasts with the more "classic" strips, where the Giant tries to squeeze a punchline at the end of every other page, and that makes it a real page-turner, allowed to be very dark and to weave several stories into a well-written tragedy. I enjoyed hating Xykon and yet I'm still in awe every time I read his big final speech again. Plus, there is a dog. For a few panels, but still.

Utterly Dwarfed shows an amazing art upgrade, which has to count for something. I really enjoyed Durkon's story, Oona is one of my favorite characters, and 1139's big revelation and the subsequent strips were excellent. But for all those reasons, I will probably end up preferring the current book, despite the writing impediment I foolishly brought upon myself a few strips ago.

[Lord Torath]

I'm not sure if I can really say what my favorite book is, but I can certainly say that the last panel of Advanced Color Theory (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) is the only time I've gotten chills reading this comic. After seeing the all the millions+ of planet memorials and the knowledge that the gods can't completely trap the Snarl, and then all of a sudden "There's a new color in the crayon box."

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'll have to agree with most people here, Good Deeds Gone Unpunished was freaking fantastic. In the main comic, though, Blood Runs in the Family was 10/10 on almost every page, and the way Tarquin is written is absolutely glorious from the beginning to the inevitable end. Those are my favorite ones. Utterly Dwarfed is definitely the next one, for the sheer amount of lore, for the whole arc in Valhalla and in the Astral Plane, for #1130, for Loki in general and for #1173. Although I fully expect my favorite to switch to the seventh book by the end of it.

[Metastachydium]

the whole arc in Valhalla

(Technically, we see a full two panels worth of Valhalla and one of those panels isn't really big.)

[Tzardok]

Thor: "Valhalla!"

Minrah: "Valhalla!"

Durkon: "Valhalla!"

Odin: "It's only a model."

[Metastachydium]

Thor: "Eh, it's a silly place anyway."

[littlebum2002]

SoD was great but would have benefited enormously had the Giant decided to write it later, perhaps in the middle of DstP.

Just curious as to what your reasoning is here. Are you saying that by then we would have had more insight into Team Evil and could have had a more elaborate backstory?

[Ruck]

From the main series, I think Blood Runs in the Family is my favorite, especially the second half. The race to the gate is thrilling, and the low points hit hard and make the triumphs feel that much sweeter. Tarquin and Malack are terrific villains, too: more capable than many of the side villains we'd seen in the past, which makes them more dangerous, and terrifically written characters as well.

While I think stretches of Don't Split the Party do drag (mostly on the boat), the climatic sequence with Vaarsuvius and O-Chul vs. Team Evil is one of my favorite in the whole series and is packed with "[expletive] yeah!" moments.

Of the side books, tough to choose between Start of Darkness and Good Deeds Gone Unpunished. I think the tragedy of Redcloak is so well-done and adds so much depth to the overall story, but the execution of everything in GDGU really shows how far the Giant has come with his craft since the story started, I think. (Not that I ever thought he was a bad writer, but of course fifteen years of practicing his craft is going to make him better.)

Speaking of that craft, I really also want to highlight some of the work in Utterly Dwarfed and GDGU, specifically Sigdi's and O-Chul's stories, which I find really impactful in part for how well they depict these two characters being really committed to Good and the sacrifices that can require. It's easy to be nice, or even Good, when nothing is at stake-- what makes these two special is their commitment to living those principles even when so much is stake. I'm not sure if the Giant could've done this as well earlier in the strip's run, but in any case, when it was done, it was excellently done.

[Mike Havran]

Just curious as to what your reasoning is here. Are you saying that by then we would have had more insight into Team Evil and could have had a more elaborate backstory? I feel that many parts of SoD are permeated by the "simple zaniness" that is typical for pre-trial NCftPB, as if the book's plot was conceived roughy at the same time; and since SoD has significant impact on the overall story, I think this is a pity. I don't want to go into too many details because spoilers, but for example Lirian and Dorukan act only in SoD and they come across as far more irresponsible guardians than the rest of the Scribblers. If SoD was written along the DStP, it would be a more satisfying story, I think. Also, a longer one.

[TaiLiu]

Definitely either SOD or GDGU (the O-Chul story, anyway). These are self-contained books, which means that they can have a satisfying beginning, middle, and end. The "main" books are good, but they're all part of an extended saga and can't be read without the others.

[Beni-Kujaku]

GDGU is the best for me. Especially O-Chul's backstory.

I just reread GDGU, and I have to say that even if O-Chul's backstory is incredible, a tale of heroism, of sacrifice, of understanding, tolerance and of good people trying their best to do good, and/or Good, the backstory that hit me the hardest was Lien's. Specifically one panel. The "What the hell is wrong with you?!?".
This was not complex political intrigues, secrets hiding the fate of the world, genius strategies. This was just one woman seeing evil at work, and acting on it. O-Chul tells us that anybody can grow to become a hero, but Lien tells us than everybody can rise up to do good. There was no sacrifice, or danger, or windy path. Just the will to open your eyes, and the courage to act. I think it's beautiful.
Lien's backstory is also the one that tells you that you can be good without sacrificing your freedom, and that freedom is in fact a form of good. Do not force yourself to stay the way you are, or with whom you are, just because that's what it's been for a long time. And that seeing the beauty in the world is also a form of freedom.

[ZhonLord]

As someone who doesn't have access to the side stories and backstories, I would say my favorite book is a tie between the current one and BRitF. Because Tarquin is right, I love an engaging and intriguing villain, and Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts.

Tarquin is right up there with Harry potter's pink toad Umbridge in controlling over-detailed jerks whose downfall is a bit of chaos wrecking their established tyrannical order, it's one of my favorite antagonist types because the downfall can come from so many different sources and each execution is invariably unique.

Redcloak is compelling for his two-villages problem. He's a refreshing combination of driven zealot, cocerned leader, enough pride to rival Vegeta, and an exhausted parent with a hyperactive child. I love how Durkon and minrah have played off him so far and can't wait to see how things go in the party's next collision with him.

[Ruck]

Because Tarquin is right

In what sense do you mean?

[Fyraltari]

Because Tarquin is rightIn what sense do you mean?

I'm guessing in the sense that:


Because Tarquin is right, I love an engaging and intriguing villain

[Ruck]

I'm guessing in the sense that:



It's not very clear as written. It could mean:

"My favorite book is BRitF because..."


Tarquin is right: I love an engaging and intriguing villain
Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts


Or it could mean, "My favorite book is BRitF because..."


Tarquin is right
I love an engaging and intriguing villain
Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts

[Mordokai]

All of them are good, really. From the upgraded art style(which I've really come to love and adore) to the deeper story... it's hard to argue the story hasn't advanced in leaps and bounds.

So I totally get it that what I'm about to say is somewhat contentious. With all of this in mind, my favourite book is still...

Dungeon Crawlin Fools.

Yeah, lots of it comes down to nostalgia. It reminds me of simpler times and I am at the time of my life where that counts, at least for me personally. And it is a start of a beloved story, that I've spent half my life with. And also, when it comes down to it, it's nice to pick up a book and just lean back to appreciate a few good laughs, without thinking too much.

[ZhonLord]

It's not very clear as written. It could mean:

"My favorite book is BRitF because..."


Tarquin is right: I love an engaging and intriguing villain
Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts



This is the correct meaning for what I said, sorry for the confusion.

[rgrekejin]

If I had to rank them in order, I think I would go with

1. Don't Split the Party
2. Start of Darkness
3. War and XPs
4. Blood Runs in the Family
5. No Cure for the Paladin Blues
6. Utterly Dwarfed
7. On the Origin of PCs
8. Dungeon Crawlin' Fools
9. Good Deeds Gone Unpunished
10. Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales

Don't Split the Party has what is probably the comic's best arc in Darth V, plus Belkar coming into his own as an interesting character, and Roy's afterlife hijinks. Start of Darkness is the comic at it's best, with razor-sharp writing, perfect pacing, and not a single ounce of storytelling fat. War and XPs contains the epic battle for Azure City, and the one comic that never fails to give me the chills, #449 Land of the Rising... These books are all really top-tier, and I wouldn't argue with however you order them.

Blood Runs in the Family has a lot of great moments, but Tarquin's schtick starts to grate after a while, and I found the conclusion to the search for Girard's gate a little anti-climactic. No Cure for the Paladin Blues really sets the stage for the comic to become more than a gag-a-week, and introduces us to a lot of important and interesting characters (and, you know, the main plot). Utterly Dwarfed has some great moments as well (the Godsmoot comes to mind), but also has a lot of what seems kinda like filler content (Tinkertown?). On the Origin of PCs has some good humor, and Dungeon Crawlin' Fools of course introduces us to our cast.

Clearly, the book that I most widely diverge from the rest of general board sentiment on is Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, a book which I've read cover-to-cover at least twice, and still find so forgettable that I always have to reach for it on my shelf when these sort of debates come up to remind myself what that book even contains. Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales is a fun extra for completionists, although the Julio Scoundrel and the 4th ed versions of the Order were fun.

[Ionathus]

The easiest part of this question for me is ranking the main comic books - UD is at the top and then we go backwards chronologically. I was blown away by the story of Utterly Dwarfed and the way Rich explored Durkon's upbringing and psyche. The "twist" of Durkon's memories is amazing, and speaking personally there's a lot in UD that hits the nail on the head in terms of loss, grief, honoring the memory of the people you've lost, and doing what you think is right even when it's hard or painful.

And before that, I loved BRitF. I loved the way Tarquin's character tried to force the story to go the way he wanted it, I loved the ways Elan was forced to grow as a result. I thought nothing would be able to top it but I was wrong. They just keep getting better, and that's so exciting to see this deep in a comic's run!

My bigger issue is where to fit GDGU and SoD. Both of the "main" characters (O-Chul and Redcloak) are immensely compelling and I loved how the format allowed Rich to tell a complete story in the span of a single book. I'd say GDGU edges out SoD just in terms of writing quality - Rich's work really has gotten very polished, and I loved the twists and turns of O-Chul's story (plus the bonus content with the other Azure City characters). But particularly I loved O-Chul. I loved how he was allowed to be incorruptible but still interesting as a character. I loved how his heroic resolve was tested in complex ways that are interesting to read about, instead of "oh no the kittens will die if I don't punch good enough." I adored his speech to the paladins at the end.

Final rankings:
Main comic by release order, with side stories distributed throughout.

Utterly Dwarfed
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished
Blood Runs in the Family
Start of Darkness
Don't Split the Party
War & XPs
No Cure for the Paladin Blues
On the Origin of PCs
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools

Snips, Snails, & Dragon Tails wasn't written to be part of a coherent story so I find it harder to care about it. The jokes were fun but without that character investment, I just can't rank it.

[Windscion]

SoD is my top because it gives us a much better look at Team Evil, which I appreciate.

War and XPs I like because it shows the party trying to work with the azurite army, which is very different from the usual usurpation of government authority. "We'll handle this, thanks. We're semitrained quasiprofessionals." While Roy is LG, DnD parties are often (necessarily) laws unto themselves, and rarely answer to authority except during the setup and rewards phase.

But GDGU was very good, and all the stories were very focused. It gave the story-protagonists their own day in the sun.

[Tubercular Ox]

I like Blood Runs in the Family because it shows off how much Rich has grown as an author. The party is broken up most of the time, how they're broken up keeps changing as they split up and come back together, there are three Team Evils: Team Tarquin, Team Nale (secret but properly foreshadowed), and Team Xykon (stuck in an independent subplot)

Team Tarquin is torn over Team Nale's presence, and Team Nale has Sabine and the imp working behind his back... although not necessarily against him.

There's a huge fight, also broken up into multiple sub fights, and in the end Teams Tarquin and Nale uneasily team up to chase after the Heroes.

Rich even has time to make us care about Enor and Gannji.

That's act two.

I love book 1, don't get me wrong, but how do I appreciate how much he's grown without pointing out that it's, "Gag-a-day, introduce a villain, light plot, introduce subquest, finish subquest, return to plot"

[littlebum2002]

It's not very clear as written. It could mean:

"My favorite book is BRitF because..."


Tarquin is right: I love an engaging and intriguing villain
Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts


Or it could mean, "My favorite book is BRitF because..."


Tarquin is right
I love an engaging and intriguing villain
Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts



This is a good example of why the Oxford Comma isn't always beneficial to use. In this situation, the Oxford Comma makes the sentence sound like a list of 3 things, and eliminating it would make it much clearer that the second and third parts go together.

"Because Tarquin is right, I love an engaging and intriguing villain and Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts."

[Peelee]

This is a good example of why the Oxford Comma isn't always beneficial to use. In this situation, the Oxford Comma makes the sentence sound like a list of 3 things, and eliminating it would make it much clearer that the second and third parts go together.

"Because Tarquin is right, I love an engaging and intriguing villain and Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts."

One could always use a period after "right" and just have two separate sentences, especially since thr independent clauses don't actually conjoin. Unless Tarquin said that he and Redcloak are both great.

[Persolus]

This is a good example of why the Oxford Comma isn't always beneficial to use. In this situation, the Oxford Comma makes the sentence sound like a list of 3 things, and eliminating it would make it much clearer that the second and third parts go together.

"Because Tarquin is right, I love an engaging and intriguing villain and Tarkie and Redcloak both have awesome moments under their belts."

...this wasn't really an oxford Comma, though? There isn't a list of things. There's a statement ("Tarquin is right"), an explanation of the statement ("engaging + intriguing"), and an example ("Tarkie + Redcloak").
If anything, the "Because" is the confusing part.

I'd say my favourite book was probably Blood Runs in the Family, because that was the first book i got to experience in real time.

[Ruck]

One could always use a period after "right" and just have two separate sentences, especially since thr independent clauses don't actually conjoin. Unless Tarquin said that he and Redcloak are both great.

That doesn't convey the correct meaning, though.

I'm kinda confused how this discussion picked up again anyway, considering we established the intended meaning six weeks ago.

[Tzardok]

I'm kinda confused how this discussion picked up again anyway, considering we established the intended meaning six weeks ago.

This forum follows the dao of Nitpicking? :smalltongue:

[ZhonLord]

For the love of....

Final clarification: Tarquin is right that I love an engaging and intriguing villain. Two examples of which are Redcloak and Tarkie himself.

Now stop debating over my phrasing, and answer the question posed by the opening post!

[Precure]

OotS has been peaked with DStP.

[Trixie_One]

Start of Darkness followed up by Utterly Dwarfed. Both have by far the best character plotting that made my jaw drop when Durkon's and Redcloak's individual arcs in those books paid off so well in so very different ways.

Blood Runs might be third as I love a hell of a lot of it, Tarquin and the bounty hunters especially, but I'm less keen on everything post pyramid where it goes from top notch to somewhat wonky in the plot movement that was needed to finish the arc as quickly and comletely as it did. I also find the fight with Throg before that back in the arena a tad too on the nose in terms of an author having a go at his audience for engaging with his work wrong.

If not Blood it's probably Don't Split as while yes it drags in places but it's got such immense moments to make the hanging about worthwhile. 'Do you wanna play blocks with me' destroyed me, and that was the page where a stick figure rpg parody comic left me in floods of tears.

Worst is Origin of PC's. There's not much that entertained me in there, and it really comes of the worse as it's hard not to compare it to the triumph that was SoD.

[Coppercloud]

Start of Darkness followed up by Utterly Dwarfed. Both have by far the best character plotting that made my jaw drop when Durkon's and Redcloak's individual arcs in those books paid off so well in so very different ways.

Blood Runs might be third as I love a hell of a lot of it, Tarquin and the bounty hunters especially, but I'm less keen on everything post pyramid where it goes from top notch to somewhat wonky in the plot movement that was needed to finish the arc as quickly and comletely as it did. I also find the fight with Throg before that back in the arena a tad too on the nose in terms of an author having a go at his audience for engaging with his work wrong.

If not Blood it's probably Don't Split as while yes it drags in places but it's got such immense moments to make the hanging about worthwhile. 'Do you wanna play blocks with me' destroyed me, and that was the page where a stick figure rpg parody comic left me in floods of tears.

Worst is Origin of PC's. There's not much that entertained me in there, and it really comes of the worse as it's hard not to compare it to the triumph that was SoD.

I agree with pretty much every word of your post except for the part which I assume is about Tarquin's comment in the fifth panel of 788 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html). I don't think it is fair to describe it as an aggressive behavior towards the readers. At least, the Giant's explanation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?324413-Thog-Z-and-Nale-s-whereabouts/page2&p=16772859#post16772859) convinces me that this wasn't his intention. If this isn't enough for you, an equally valid interpretation would be that this comment simply hints at Tarquin's control-freak impulses and his unhealthy obsession with "proper" narrative structure.

[Trixie_One]

More the Throg fan getting decapitated which as your comment confirms was indeed intended as a take that. So yeah as I said I do think it's a tad too on the nose. It's not a major problem in the slightest. It's just something I've found in other works too is getting adversarily meta needs to be handled carefully as it can really backfire.

[Kish]

Well, I might be inclined to have a go at my audience if they added gratuitous r's to my characters' names too...

...oh, that's not what you meant.

[woweedd]

I agree with pretty much every word of your post except for the part which I assume is about Tarquin's comment in the fifth panel of 788 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html). I don't think it is fair to describe it as an aggressive behavior towards the readers. At least, the Giant's explanation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?324413-Thog-Z-and-Nale-s-whereabouts/page2&p=16772859#post16772859) convinces me that this wasn't his intention. If this isn't enough for you, an equally valid interpretation would be that this comment simply hints at Tarquin's control-freak impulses and his unhealthy obsession with "proper" narrative structure.

Also, i'd like to note a meta-gag here: Namely, that that description could also apply to the way lots of fans talked about Tarkie himself...

Either way, on that note, my favorite is BRITF. The start of Belkar's character development, arguably the comic's best action scene in the Thog fight, the Order actually getting to be very competent in battle with stuff like the Nale ambush and taking down Tarquin and co, the whole bit with the illusion, Nale and Tsukiko's deaths, and the Order's all-is-lost moment in the pyramid after Durkon's death, with the entire party in despair, Roy nearly killing Belkar out of denial-induced fury, and even Belkar himself being in full-on shock. Plus, the gags are on point as ever. Shout out to the Glibness potion. And, yes, Tarquin. While I may think he's a sexist sack of crap who isn't half as smart as he thinks, I can still appreciate him as a well-constructed character, and God is he. A perfect facade of cool, calm planner-ness that we get to watch unravel as things fall to pieces. The idea of a villain who's entire plan is based around exploiting NARRATIVE structure is a great play on the Lawful Evil alignment (after all, author shares a root word with authority), and a great way to play off the comic's fourth-wall-breaking meta-humor for actual drama, with his blend of actual genre savvy and very much wrong genre savvy playing well into Elan's arc. Speaking of which, this is Elan's book to shine, as his rose-colored glasses get knocked off, and he fights his evil father. He gets some great moments of counter-acting his dad's genre shenanigans, like WEAPONIZING the unspoken plan guarantee with Julio, while also reflecting on his own history of ocassionally placing stories above people like with the Gate explosion. Elan is not a character that gets to show off range often, so it's nice when it happens.