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Farmerbink
2022-11-10, 02:47 PM
Heya playgrounders of all types. I have a quandary I'd like some input on.

I'll soon be starting a Carrion Crown game, using basically all of the first-party PF 1 content. For story purposes, I've settled on Dhampir as a class, and want to lean hard into the idea that he has power over the undead, but does not like what that means about what he is.

SO the plan is generally speaking to exert his will over them in a fairly concrete, spell-based (ideally a result of charisma) fashion. As it stands, I'm familiar with 3 options to do this:
* Dirge bard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/dirge-bard/) at level two can hit all undead with [mind-affecting] spells only as if they were living creatures, with the notable (and odd) exception that the more "personal" spells don't work. Can't target undead with anything that specifies humanoid as its target.
* Undead bloodline sorcerer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline/) can treat corporeal undead that were once humanoids as humanoid, for all his spells. In terms of the applicable spells, much more broad. In terms of the legal targets, much more narrow.
* Spirit Walker mesmerist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/mesmerist/archetypes/paizo-llc-mesmerist-archetypes/spirit-walker-mesmerist-archetype/) at level 5 can hit all undead ((this ruling given by DM)) as if their nearest non-undead type (a zombie lion gets treated like an animal) with [mind-affecting] spells and abilities

Obviously, there's weird subtle intricacies here. The bard archetype can use a wide array of "living creature" spells to target undead. The sorcerer can use things like charm person and hold person on a comparatively narrow range of undead targets. The mesmerist can hit a wider range of targets with a wider range of spells (and abilities, so intimidate should be on the table), but takes level 5 to come online, and is saddled with some WEIRD clearly non-good class features. I'm familiar with Threnodic spell, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic) as well, but since that isn't as clearly tied to character design choices, it's less immediately relevant.

FIRST ACTIONABLE QUESTION: Am I missing anything? I scanned the bones oracle, death and undead domains, and the list of first-party classes.
SECOND: Is there an obvious critical caveat to any of those three I've overlooked or misrepresented?
THIRD: Is there clear, over-arching value to any of the three options in notable excess of the others. I'm strongly considering pairing basically any of them with a 1-level dip in heavens oracle for awesome display, and just trying to meaningfully assess the relative value.

Thanks in advance for the read!
-FarmerBink

vasilidor
2022-11-10, 04:30 PM
With the dirge bard, if it is humanoid only, it wont work. Hold monster would, but not hold person. Same with the charm spells. But he does get necromancy spells so if you want to get Hold Undead you can. Spells like Hideous Laughter and Sleep now work on undead though.

Kurald Galain
2022-11-10, 05:20 PM
SECOND: Is there an obvious critical caveat to any of those three I've overlooked or misrepresented?
Possibly.

Undead are immune to a ton of things, including but not limited to (1) mind-affecting, (2) spells that only target humanoids, (3) strength damage, and (4) almost anything that gives a fort save.

Dirge Bard and Spirit Walker override #1 only. Undead Bloodline is ambiguously written, and can be read as either overriding #1 and #2, or overriding all of the above; either way it's the best of the three.

Aside from the above: Boneshaker and Halt Undead are two great spells to use against undead, and they're not on the bard's or mesmerist's spell list (dirge bard can get them but sorc gets them earlier). That's another good reason to go for sorc. But, the Spirit Walker's L3 ability is basically a swift-action Animate Dead, which is a very fitting ability. Finally, bring a potion of Hide From Undead, specifically because it doesn't give a saving throw if the undead are mindless. HTH!

Faily
2022-11-11, 11:07 AM
Choose Cleric, choose Negative Energy Channeling and pick up the feat Command Undead which allows you to take control of undeads with your channel.

As a Dhampir, you can choose the Favored Class option of adding +1 Caster Level to your channeling effects that target undeads.

The Ancestors subdomain (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo-domains/repose-domain/ancestors/) could work well in having power over those who are dead as well as you get the ability to Speak With Dead several times per day.

You don't have to be Evil to use Channel Negative Energy, but you must at least be neutral to choose it. None of the other options above require Evil alignment either. Ancestors subdomain could represent his vampiric ancestry too. :)

Maat Mons
2022-11-12, 01:01 AM
Is the preference for Charisma motivated only by Dhampir’s racial ability score adjustments? If so, you might consider some of the variant Dhampir heritages (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/RACES/other-races/featured-races/arg-dhampir/#Variant_Dhampir_Heritages).

If you’re half Chinese hopping vampire, you get +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Dex.
If you’re half Romanian generic vampire, you get +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Con.
If you’re half Hindu psychic vampire, you get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis.
If you’re half etymologically questionable hideous vampire, you get +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Con.
If you’re descended from the Vampire King, you get +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Dex, regardless of what type of vampire you come from, as far as I can tell.


If you like the Arcana of the Undead Bloodline, it can also be obtained via the Blood Arcanist archetype for the Arcanist class.