Need some help understanding Polymorph!

[Max Caysey]

So I know this has probably been asked many times, but I am severely confused and I can't seem to find the answer online... So I'm hoping you guys can help:

So what really happens when - as a bear warrior - i change from dwarf into bear?


1) Since polymorph says "like alter self" and alter self says that I loose all ex that are not derived from class levels, and racial traits are (Ex), and the racial bonuses to str, con, etc. (including humans' bonus feat) are part of those traits, do I loose my racial ability bonuses (or bonus feat) when polymorphing??


2) Polymorph says that your creature type and subtype (if any) change according to your new form, however it also says that I don't gain the Ex qualities of my new form so what exactly is my traits when polymorhed into an animal (black bear in my case)? It's not dwarf or human and its not animal... so what traits do I have? Eating and sleeping is also under trait so I guess I don't need to do so, when polymorphed?


3) Vow of Poverty bonuses are not derived from class levels, but from HD, I assume you loose all (Ex) abilities from that feat when polymorphed?


So this is related to my bear warrior character, which I'm still working on. All of a sudden it dawned on me, that I actually don't really understand how my build changes when I polymorph into a bear. What I retain and what I gain. Sure I can read the Polymorph spell and the alter self, but it seems like the spells have been worded a bit unclear!

Also, does anyone have the "Rules of the Game" articles on polymorphing? Those might help!

Cheers!

[Duke of Urrel]

I possess all eight articles concerning polymorphing in the "Rules of the Game" series in dot-PDF form.

I would willingly share them with you, but I would need help from somebody, maybe you, to make the necessary web-link between us. Maybe a Google Drive? Or good-old e-mail?

The old links where I found Skip Williams's "Rules of the Game" series online all seem to have been severed.

POST-SCRIPT: Although, to be honest, the "Rules of the Game" series won't necessarily answer all the questions that you have. Some of them unavoidably require our own interpretive judgement.

[Melcar]

So I know this has probably been asked many times, but I am severely confused and I can't seem to find the answer online... So I'm hoping you guys can help:

So what really happens when - as a bear warrior - i change from dwarf into bear?


1) Since polymorph says "like alter self" and alter self says that I loose all ex that are not derived from class levels, and racial traits are (Ex), and the racial bonuses to str, con, etc. (including humans' bonus feat) are part of those traits, do I loose my racial ability bonuses (or bonus feat) when polymorphing??


2) Polymorph says that your creature type and subtype (if any) change according to your new form, however it also says that I don't gain the Ex qualities of my new form so what exactly is my traits when polymorhed into an animal (black bear in my case)? It's not dwarf or human and its not animal... so what traits do I have? Eating and sleeping is also under trait so I guess I don't need to do so, when polymorphed?


3) Vow of Poverty bonuses are not derived from class levels, but from HD, I assume you loose all (Ex) abilities from that feat when polymorphed?


So this is related to my bear warrior character, which I'm still working on. All of a sudden it dawned on me, that I actually don't really understand how my build changes when I polymorph into a bear. What I retain and what I gain. Sure I can read the Polymorph spell and the alter self, but it seems like the spells have been worded a bit unclear!

Also, does anyone have the "Rules of the Game" articles on polymorphing? Those might help!

Cheers!

Im going to give a few answers here... its goint to be a bit of a rant. So bear with! :D

Firstly, yes you are correct that you loose all (EX) which are not based on class levels from your original form, while gaining non of the (Ex) abilities from your target form. However, since physical and mental traits are all (Ex) you loose all of them despite polymorph (alter self) say you keep your mind. The designers did not make a distinction between physical and mental traits. So we loose on all accounts. It also don't make sence that you loose darkvision from dwarf, but dont gain low-light vision from animal when eyes are clearly a physical aspect. In conclusion I think the polymorph rules suck, are poorly written and illogical...

There are a few ways to play a bear warrior.

1) You either accept that it sucks and take all the penalties of polymorph (and the few good things) and rework your character accourdinly. Having two sheets. One where you are a dwarf and one where you look like a bear but have no animal traits... This is probably the most RAW/ rule legal way of playing it, and probably what is intented. Imagin being a human and having to figure out which skills the human bonus skill point was put in and then remove that when polymorphed... how stupid is that!

2) However I do believe there is an argument to be made that since you transform as part of raging, you only gain/loose specifically what is mentioned in the text and completely forget that polymorph is even mentioned. Just take the str and con bonus and be on your way... I think this is the easiest way of going about it. And I don't think there are really any down sides to it either. And I don't think there is supposed to be down sides to the raging except the standard rage penalties. After all, I don't think bear warrior is meant as a trap and loosing your entire racial traits sure seem like it!

3) Lastly - and how I would most likely rule if I was the DM - I would simply substitute all the places where it says polymorph with wild shape. This make a lot of sense and fit perfectly.

I don't know if you can use this, but that's the way I would go about it. Because really following the RAW of polymorph sucks!

[Max Caysey]

I possess all eight articles concerning polymorphing in the "Rules of the Game" series in dot-PDF form.

I would willingly share them with you, but I would need help from somebody, maybe you, to make the necessary web-link between us. Maybe a Google Drive? Or good-old e-mail?

The old links where I found Skip Williams's "Rules of the Game" series online all seem to have been severed.

POST-SCRIPT: Although, to be honest, the "Rules of the Game" series won't necessarily answer all the questions that you have. Some of them unavoidably require our own interpretive judgement.

Hi...

I actually fund them myself. Haven't had a chance to look them over tho. Cheers!

[Melcar]

I actually did a little more research. Apparently, at the time of publication, the Bear Warrior/ druid both functioned like polymorph. However the druids wild shape ability was changed, in 2006, to work based on alternate form. Therefore, I strongly suggest that Bear Warrior also works off of wild shape/ alternate form!

This cements (IMHO) my suspicions that Bear warriors transformation is supposed to work like druids wild shape. And back in 2003 when CW came out it did. But since druids wild shape ability has been changed so too should bear warrior!


Links: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/156515/whats-the-story-to-wotc-gave-up-on-fixing-polymorph

[Crake]

3) Vow of Poverty bonuses are not derived from class levels, but from HD, I assume you loose all (Ex) abilities from that feat when polymorphed?

Vow of poverty (and in fact all exalted and vile feats) is Su, not Ex. Can be found in the description of the relevant feat tags at the beginning of the books' respective feat chapters.

[Max Caysey]

Vow of poverty (and in fact all exalted and vile feats) is Su, not Ex. Can be found in the description of the relevant feat tags at the beginning of the books' respective feat chapters.

When you read under the discription under chapter two under voluntary poverty multiple of the benefits are (Ex)... so what would happen to them?

[Feantar]

When you read under the discription under chapter two under voluntary poverty multiple of the benefits are (Ex)... so what would happen to them?
Well... you don't lose the source of the ability, (the Su feat part) so you'd lose them but immediately gain them back as they are derived from it. Or, at least, that's how I'd interpret it.