Should Druids be allowed to make paper scrolls?

[roguemetal]

Druids are by nature, supposed to be forces against the general concept of progress in a modern definition. Destruction of natural terrain and resources for extraneous things is considered a breach of their ideals to varying degrees of care. Progress of societal functions doesn't justify the destruction of the natural world. Thus the dilemma, would druids ever make paper scrolls? The by far easiest material for scrolls to come across, but also requires killing part of a healthy tree to make good paper. They're then contributing to logging, and the recession of their forests, as well as feeding a desire for more paper by the populous.

All of this seems antithesis to the druid, but there's nothing in any lore that I can find that addresses this. What justifications could exist? I have heard about vellum and grass paper as an excuse, but what about actual wood paper which is by far the more common?

[Telonius]

Trees have natural lifespans. Cutting one down at the end of its life - rather than having it fall into a healthy one - and making something useful out of it would be perfectly fine. Druids have never been prevented from using things made of wood; shields, quarterstaffs, even metal instruments like sickles have always been okay for them to use. And as far as recordkeeping goes, high-quality archival paper is excellent for storage. Vellum and company would need to be replaced or re-copied much more often, taking up more resources. For vellum, it's animal-based, so you do need to kill a calf to get it.

[Paragon]

We're talking about a world where prestidigitation, minor/major creation and fabricate make it so trees don't need to be fell for paper to be made

[Elkad]

If a druid can kill a bunch of oat plants to make breakfast, why not a tree to make a scroll?

[Maat Mons]

In the time periods D&D models itself after, wood pulp was nowhere near as commonly-used for paper making as it is today.

[Thunder999]

Why wouldn't they be able to, druids use weapons and armour made from plants and animals, eat plants and animals and really the only thing they don't do is wear metal armour. Druids probably wouldn't approve of you clearing an ancient forest to make paper, but it's really only such extremes that are a problem.

[Biggus]

A few hundred years ago, one of the largest libraries in Europe had less than 2000 books in it. In a medieval setting, where all books are written by hand, paper only accounts for a tiny amount of the trees felled. Wood for building, furniture etc would have used vastly more. Avoiding scrolls would be very low on a Druid's list of priorities if they were concerned about over-logging.

[Scots Dragon]

One flavourful option is the idea of druids scribing their spells on large leaves, like lilypads or such. They could also use parchment from older animals, which was common as a writing surface.

The main difference from others is that a druid's scroll is likely to be a little less neat and tidy, likely a roll of animal skin scribed with an ink or paint made from crushed berries or animal blood.

[Saintheart]

I mean, if the druid is going to lose his mind over writing on bark, imagine the existential crisis provoked when someone tells him what leather armor is made from.

[Rynjin]

I think Druids should spontaneously combust and die for even thinking about technology more complicated than a rock

[OracleofWuffing]

If you're not allowed to use a tree to make paper, then does a Druid become an Ex-Druid after a single casting of Goodberry?

That said, I was leaning more towards papyrus for my paper, but I guess that still presents the same issue.

... What if you transform into a paper wasp? Can you make paper then for your nest? :smalltongue:

[Yahzi Coyote]

Make scrolls? Druids shouldn't be allowed to use scrolls, let alone make them. My Druids are illiterate, in addition to being barred from using metal gear.

Druids need every nerf they can get, man.

[False God]

"Paper" traditionally, long before the printing press was made with pulp from reeds (papayrus) or from cotton. Both of which can be reliably harvested without destroying the natural world. Perhaps a druid even makes bargains with nature spirits to provide them with writing materials, from inks to quills to paper.

I don't think a druid must be opposed to civilization. Certainly they can't tolerate wanton destruction of nature, but there are many fantasy civilizations that live in harmony with nature, from simplistic pastoral life like halflings/hobbits to refined and advanced societies of elves. Just as there are many facets of nature, there are many types of druids. Druids of decay, druids of oceans, druids of mountains, and it's likely they have just as wide a variety of opinions on how they should behave.

A druid must kill to eat. Be they vegan or otherwise. At its very base, the "law of the jungle" applies. Is a druid stronger than a reed? Than a tree? Will the trees seek vengeance upon the druid for harvesting some of them for paper? These are perhaps considerations a druid is aware of when they choose to make paper, that the average farmer or townsfolk is not. Knowledge that there is risk does not mean they won't take the risk, only that they have a better understanding of the potential for consequences.

So, if you're playing a druid, you'll need to establish all that for yourself and then answer "Should I make/use paper?" If you're a DM for a druid, you should make sure your player has established that, before you start throwing all sorts of unexpected roleplay restrictions at them. Nobody enjoys it when they're playing a class with innate alignment restrictions and roleplay limitations and suddenly the DM starts going "Ooooo!!! Gotcha you did the thing, you lose all your powers and can never be a *class* again!"

[Ramza00]

Why does the paper scrolls matter? Why can it not be something else as a unit of exchange like the Druid meditating and endowing magic energy into rocks and one throws the stone to activate the spell?

Remember where the word stocks come from. Stocks also known as tally sticks were memory devices where one etches onto wood. Well eventually in the medieval era these medieval devices were used with wood where one had the wood split in half and one can confirm this is an original split in half, due to the wood lines matching on both sides confirming it was a specific tree and thus a specific legal contract confirm its unique validity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick#Split_tally

And this is why financial stocks and bonds use the same wood origin word as the stocks like one put a person between two boards as a public shaming, for the etymology origin of stock is tree trunk. Likewise other words meaning a store of supply derive from here.

=====

So a Druid may learn magic techniques to make scrolls with different materials that are not paper. Likewise a Druid may make paper out of things that are reclaimed wood without cutting down the original tree.

Furthermore wood paper is not common until the 1800s due to chemistry techniques such as sodium sulfate where one pretreats the wood chips to make it easier to extract pulp. Using grass and other methods were common, likewise animal hides was the main method throughout the medieval era in Europe. (This is not the case with China or the Middle East, paper is a weird thing with history for how we make it over 2000 years is a dozen different ways.)

[Duke of Urrel]

They could also use parchment from older animals, which was common as a writing surface.

This is not only flavorful but also follows the descriptions of scrolls that appear in the SRD: here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) and here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm).


Scrolls
A scroll is a spell magically inscribed onto paper or parchment so that it can be used later.


Physical Description
A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper.

The italics are my own.

According to the United States National Archives and Records Administration (https://www.archives.gov/preservation/formats/paper-vellum.html):


The term parchment is a general term for an animal skin which has been prepared for writing or printing. Parchment has been made for centuries, and is usually calf, goat, or sheep skin. The term vellum from the French veau refers to a parchment made from calf skin.

The Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2012) also provides these descriptions on page 127.


Paper: A sheet of standard paper is made from cloth fibers.

Parchment: A sheet of parchment is a piece of goat hide or sheepskin that has been prepared for writing on.

I concur with other commenters who mention that manufacturing paper from wood pulp is a comparatively modern practice. This is what Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_paper#Fiber_sources) says:


Before the industrialisation of the paper production the most common fibre source was recycled fibres from used textiles, called rags. The rags were from hemp, linen and cotton. It was not until the introduction of wood pulp in 1843 that paper production was not dependent on recycled materials from ragpickers. It was not realized at the time how unstable wood pulp paper is.

So the phrase "cloth fibers" in the Player's Handbook most likely refers to hemp, linen (i.e., flax), or cotton.

[OracleofWuffing]

Is anyone else walking away from this with a quest hook where the Druids have to form an uneasy alliance with the Blighters in order to curb the Beaver Menace?

[Telonius]

Is anyone else walking away from this with a quest hook where the Druids have to form an uneasy alliance with the Blighters in order to curb the Beaver Menace?

Origin of the Beaver: Garl Glittergold is chilling and talking with a groundhog friend, sees Ehlonna and Obad-Hai getting all upset about Gnomes using too much wood for their inventions. He looks at the groundhog, they look at the two gods, then back to each other, and nod.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by roguemetal
Druids are by nature, supposed to be forces against the general concept of progress in a modern definition.

That’s a modern take on druidic attitudes, but I’d say that in-game they’re more concerned with balance and preservation than the outright blocking of all advancements. As noted by others, druids wear armor made from animals and use both metal and wooden implements.

And there are many shades of druid. In the Forgotten Realms, there are druids of Malar who embody merciless predation, druids of Mielikki who are protectors and preservers of wild things, and druids of Chauntea who are active participants in rural agriculture.

Thus even wood-paper scrolls shouldn’t be that controversial, and there are plenty of other options.


Originally Posted by Scots Dragon
One flavourful option is the idea of druids scribing their spells on large leaves, like lilypads or such.

Birch is especially useful here, since birch bark can be peeled away and used as rough paper.

Also, American beech has remarkably papery leaves, which stay on the trees all winter. If you write in a tidy and compact hand—and there’s no reason druids can’t—you could fit one spell per beech leaf.


Originally Posted by False God
"Paper" traditionally, long before the printing press was made with pulp from reeds (papayrus)….

Early paper made from papyrus (note spelling) did not use pulped papyrus, but rather finely shaved sheets of papyrus pith which were laid in crosswise patterns and pressed together. I’ve done this myself, and the process yields a rather stiff but serviceable paper.

[lylsyly]

Only if they take the Scribe Scroll Feat!! Dungeons and Dragons pretend world is nothing like our history.

[Crichton]

Druids are by nature, supposed to be forces against the general concept of progress in a modern definition. Destruction of natural terrain and resources for extraneous things is considered a breach of their ideals to varying degrees of care. Progress of societal functions doesn't justify the destruction of the natural world. Thus the dilemma, would druids ever make paper scrolls? The by far easiest material for scrolls to come across, but also requires killing part of a healthy tree to make good paper. They're then contributing to logging, and the recession of their forests, as well as feeding a desire for more paper by the populous.

All of this seems antithesis to the druid, but there's nothing in any lore that I can find that addresses this. What justifications could exist? I have heard about vellum and grass paper as an excuse, but what about actual wood paper which is by far the more common?



Druids aren't against progress. They're for preservation of nature and harmony. If anything, the druid circles would be teaching the peasant farmers how to maximize their crops and maintain the health of their fields and farms in harmony with nature, so the farms would provide enough food for the local society while encroaching on as little wilderness as possible

As for paper, as some have mentioned - paper wasn't made from trees until the 1800s. For the roughly 1700 year history of paper before that, it was made from any fibrous plant around. Cotton and linen in medieval Europe, mulberry and hemp and any other bast fibers in its original invention in China. In other words, seasonal, perennial plants that die off and grow back every year. I don't see any reason a druid would take issue with using some of that dead plant fiber to make a writing medium

[Jay R]

A druid is no more opposed to paper than she is to corn. But she would probably prefer to take an already deforested area and re-plant it with trees over time.

Harvesting the plants you planted is the circle of life. It's no more anti-nature than a wolf killing for food.

[Coeruleum]

Druids cover themselves in wood, bone, and furs from dead things when there's perfectly good non-living metal available. I would think druids would love paper.

[Thunder999]

Druids cover themselves in wood, bone, and furs from dead things when there's perfectly good non-living metal available. I would think druids would love paper.

It makes sense now, druids refuse to wear metal because nothing died to make it and nature is all about things killing each other to survive. Perhaps there should be a druid-friendly special material that's just normal steel, except from mines with poor safety standards that killed people?

[hamishspence]

There's a monster called a Steelwing in MM V, which has feathers that can be used to make Masterwork Adamantine Arrows.

I could see somebody making scale armour out of those feathers, similar to the way dragonhide can be used to make various armours, and is permissible for druids to use without penalty.

[loky1109]

It makes sense now, druids refuse to wear metal because nothing died to make it and nature is all about things killing each other to survive. Perhaps there should be a druid-friendly special material that's just normal steel, except from mines with poor safety standards that killed people?

I wanna look how you make steel without fire to say "nothing died".

[Maat Mons]

Well, there's Wall of Iron + Shape Metal. Or there are magical heat sources. I think some of the aquatic races are noted to use hydrothermal vents. It wouldn't surprise me if someone or another used a volcano as a heat source. Maybe just have someone with the Fire subtype sit in the forge?

[loky1109]

Well, there's Wall of Iron + Shape Metal. Or there are magical heat sources. I think some of the aquatic races are noted to use hydrothermal vents. It wouldn't surprise me if someone or another used a volcano as a heat source. Maybe just have someone with the Fire subtype sit in the forge?

With this logic there could be wood, bone, and furs made with nothing died.

[Maat Mons]

Wood, definitely. Deadfall is an instantaneous Conjuration that creates wood. I don't know how you'd get bone or furs other than True Creation or Wish, and both of those are too expensive to be practical. Or were you figuring on harvesting body parts from creatures, but then using Regenerate to keep them from dying?

[vasilidor]

The singular advantage of using wood for paper is it is easier to bleach.
Otherwise you can make paper from grass.
Or almost any other plant.
So they could go ham wild on making paper on an invasive species of bamboo or something.

[ericgrau]

Where exactly do you think druids get food and clothing?

I'm sure it's fine as long as it came from responsible harvested trees rather than from clear cutting. Iirc all USA wood is produced this way. Circle of life bla bla bla.