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View Full Version : Enchanter wizard: 18 int or warcaster as first feat?



Hiro Quester
2022-11-11, 06:45 PM
My enchanter Artificer 1/ Wizard (enchanter) 3 will be taking a feat soon. Is it better to increase INT to 18, or take Warcaster first?

Role is party rogue (finding and disabling locks and traps) as well as BFC and buffing, and a little blasting when needed. The character is a curious scientist, who loves puzzles, and has a natural affinity for alchemy and making gadgets, curious and chaotic (worships trickster god) who investigates many situations by "let's try it and see what happens" then investigating the results.

17 Int, 16 Dex, 14 Con. Proficiency in arcana, stealth, investigation, thieves' tools, expertise in perception, and I know the guidance cantrip.

The enchanter's main class ability, Hypnotic Gaze, enables them to use an action to charm an enemy within 5 ft, and if they fail the save, use their action each turn to keep that enemy dazed and taking no actions. This does not require concentration.

So often I'm concentrating on a BFC spell that limits some of the bad guys' actions or debuffs them (e.g. web, hideous laughter, faerie fire) and then enchanting another bad guy to take no actions while my friends clean up the others. Failing to enchant a bad guy often means I'm left within 5 ft of them. Increasing that DC is important, but so is making Concentration saves if I don't charm them.

Thanks to the artificer level, I have medium armor and shield (AC 18 thanks to +1 chain shirt) and proficiency with CON saves. I usually have Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step and Mirror Image prepared as defensive options, and can use Shocking Grasp to disable bad guys' reactions and disengage without OAs.

My current plan is to take Skill Expert at Wizard 4, for increasing INT to 18, as well as gaining expertise in investigation, and proficiency in another skill (probably persuasion, because Enchanter with 8 CHA).

But I wonder if taking Warcaster would be a better option for the Wizard 4 feat? I'll be making a lot of concentration saves, and will have a few good single target spells to cast for opportunity attacks (e.g. hold person).

Which should be first: Warcaster, or Skill Expert increasing Int to 18 and getting expertise in investigation? I will take one at Wizard 4 and the other at Wizard 8.

My inclination is that increasing Int to 18 is more important, since it increases attack and spell DCsI have many defensive options to protect my concentration saves. But looking at spell lists, there are a lot of very valuable concentration spells I'll be learning between level 4 and level 8.

Skrum
2022-11-11, 10:17 PM
I would say 18 Int. I personally value getting my main stat to 18 very highly, so that's coloring it, but unless you're planning on making a melee wizard, I don't think War Caster is worth taking first. Generally, your allies are going to tank for you.

AttilatheYeon
2022-11-11, 10:24 PM
You have a decent AC that can be buffed and Con saves. Get your Int to 18 first. Honestly, i wouldn't bother with warcaster with that character.

Gignere
2022-11-11, 10:31 PM
If you’re afraid of losing concentration just grab another level of artificer and grab the mind sharpener extract. No need for warcaster.

Lokishade
2022-11-11, 10:48 PM
If you want to be a melee support tank, be in the fray, and flame on with Dragon's Breath, while deflecting attacks with Shield and ridiculous AC, by all means, go with Warcaster to help keep concentration in the case of the errant critical hit.

But if you're playing it more traditionally, you'll want that 5% bonus to nail those save-or-suck enchantments.

Hiro Quester
2022-11-11, 11:28 PM
If you’re afraid of losing concentration just grab another level of artificer and grab the mind sharpener extract. No need for warcaster.

The mind sharpener is a good infusion. So are many others at artificer 2. And any of the subclasses and abilities at artificer 3, or even up to 6 are pretty good too, and would totally fit this character especially.

In general, though, I'm concerned about further delaying wizard spell progression by taking the multi class more than that first level. And delaying getting Int 8. As a wizard, the 9th level spells and other high-level abilities are totally worth it.

Because artificer's contribution to spell slots are rounded up, a one-level dip does not delay progression of spell slots (you end up upcasting a bit, though, which is fine).

Adding another level doesn't increase spell slots, but just enables me to prepare one more 1st level spell. So a one-level dip at first level is totally worth it. But the second level is almost disincentivized.

But yeah, perhaps Warcaster isn't that necessary if I have other defensive options to avoid having to make a concentration save too often. I might take it and never need to use it. But I will definitely need INT 18, and won't ever regret having that. I just might need to play defensively if I'm concentrating on something very important.

If I'm failing concentration saves a lot, I guess I can take warcaster at Wizard 8. But I might find that something else like Resilient (wis) is even more needed.

LostBenefit
2022-11-11, 11:33 PM
. . . and can use Shocking Grasp to disable bad guys' reactions and disengage without OAs.
Taking the "Disengage" action is more effective than using your action to cast Shocking Grasp if the purpose is to negate reactions from enemies as the latter can miss.

Witty Username
2022-11-12, 12:56 AM
Your already ahead of the ball with concentration with con save proficiency.
18 int is always a good play for a first asi.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-11-12, 01:41 AM
The mind sharpener is a good infusion. So are many others at artificer 2. And any of the subclasses and abilities at artificer 3, or even up to 6 are pretty good too, and would totally fit this character especially.

In general, though, I'm concerned about further delaying wizard spell progression by taking the multi class more than that first level. And delaying getting Int 8. As a wizard, the 9th level spells and other high-level abilities are totally worth it.

Because artificer's contribution to spell slots are rounded up, a one-level dip does not delay progression of spell slots (you end up upcasting a bit, though, which is fine).

Adding another level doesn't increase spell slots, but just enables me to prepare one more 1st level spell. So a one-level dip at first level is totally worth it. But the second level is almost disincentivized.

But yeah, perhaps Warcaster isn't that necessary if I have other defensive options to avoid having to make a concentration save too often. I might take it and never need to use it. But I will definitely need INT 18, and won't ever regret having that. I just might need to play defensively if I'm concentrating on something very important.

If I'm failing concentration saves a lot, I guess I can take warcaster at Wizard 8. But I might find that something else like Resilient (wis) is even more needed.

I'm also in the camp of not needing Warcaster on this character. Warcaster, to me, is only good if you are regularly using more than one of the benefits. Also, your Con saves will come up as you level anyway. Most saves are going to be made against damage of 21 points or less, even at high levels, so you're usually gaining on a static target. Besides Resilient Wis, something like Lucky can be very helpful for covering both.
You mention missing Con saves a lot. A Bless spell goes a long way in helping out; no Clerics or Paladins in your group?

Bobthewizard
2022-11-12, 07:15 AM
I would take a half-feat to get INT to 18. Skill expert is fine, but on an enchanter you might want to consider telekinetic. With Hypnotic Gaze, you can't use actions but you can still use your bonus action. So you could use telekinetic for a little battlefield control while you lock down one enemy.

LostBenefit
2022-11-12, 04:07 PM
I would take a half-feat to get INT to 18. Skill expert is fine, but on an enchanter you might want to consider telekinetic. With Hypnotic Gaze, you can't use actions but you can still use your bonus action. So you could use telekinetic for a little battlefield control while you lock down one enemy.

I second this. Despite how useful expertise in Investigation would be, having a reliable use for your bonus action is necessary to maximize your action economy.

Hiro Quester
2022-11-13, 08:55 AM
Hmmm. My character, being the experimenter and trap finder, would want expertise in investigation. But I do see the benefit in having a reliably useful bonus action.

How often can one use a telekinetic shove? Pulling or pushing an enemy off a perch, or into a web, or pushing them out of melee range of you or your buddy (so saving a disengage) seems situationally useful.

I have never played with someone using this feat, though. How often do such opportunities come up?

Gignere
2022-11-13, 09:04 AM
Hmmm. My character, being the experimenter and trap finder, would want expertise in investigation. But I do see the benefit in having a reliably useful bonus action.

How often can one use a telekinetic shove? Pulling or pushing an enemy off a perch, or into a web, or pushing them out of melee range of you or your buddy (so saving a disengage) seems situationally useful.

I have never played with someone using this feat, though. How often do such opportunities come up?

Well you’re a wizard so you can build for it. Pick spells that said you do damage when they enter the hazard the first time on a turn. Like pushing them into a cloud of daggers, create bonfire, wall of fire, etc.. some of these would allow you to double dip because they also do damage when the creature start their turn in said hazard.