Hallowed Witch [Ravenloft - Van Richten's Arsenal]

[eBarbarossa]

So I stumbled over the Hallowed Witch PrC and I kinda like the flavor. But is it useful AT ALL? What kind of tricks could I pull with that?

[JoshuaZ]

So I stumbled over the Hallowed Witch PrC and I kinda like the flavor. But is it useful AT ALL? What kind of tricks could I pull with that?

Well, it is strictly better than Mystic Theurge but with slightly harder entry requirements. You get full advancement for all casting classes, and you get a bunch of free nice spell-like abilities. It isn't a class that's massive on the ridiculous tricks, but it is strong enough. It may require a lot of DM persuasion to allow though, because it is very setting specific.

[eBarbarossa]

Well, it is strictly better than Mystic Theurge but with slightly harder entry requirements. You get full advancement for all casting classes, and you get a bunch of free nice spell-like abilities. It isn't a class that's massive on the ridiculous tricks, but it is strong enough. It may require a lot of DM persuasion to allow though, because it is very setting specific.

Wait a second - I thought it just added on the caster level, not the number and level of spells you can cast?

[JoshuaZ]

Wait a second - I thought it just added on the caster level, not the number and level of spells you can cast?

Oh. Hmm. My memory may be wrong here, and I don't have a copy of the book to consult off-hand. if it just adds to caster level then that's not nearly as good.

[Thurbane]

I was unaware of this PrC.

Aside from harder entry reqs (including a feat), it's a pretty solid theurge class. Full progression of any arcane or divine casting classes (note: if I'm reading it right, not limited to only two classes); stacks for purposes of familiar abilities, 2 good saves, 4 skill points/level, bonus SLAs, and SR.

That's a pretty good deal, a lot better than Mystic Theurge, and possibly even slightly better than Arcane Hierophant, depending on the build focus you're going for.

The ability to progress ALL casting classes you have could potentially be huge...


Oh. Hmm. My memory may be wrong here, and I don't have a copy of the book to consult off-hand. if it just adds to caster level then that's not nearly as good.

Yeah the wording is a bit wonky, but it then goes on to give the example that a Druid 4/Sorcerer 5/Hallowed Witch 2 casts spells as a Druid 6/Sorcerer 7. I think the intent is for it to be a full theurge class.

[Thurbane]

Here's the wording. It's definitely a bit poorly worded. It could be taken as CL advancement only, or full casting advancement:


Primal Magic: Hallowed witch levels stack with other arcane or divine spellcasting classes for the purposes of determining caster level. For example, 4th-level druid/5th-level sorcerer/2nd-level hallowed witch casts druid spells as a 6th-level caster and sorcerer spells as a 7th-level caster. If a hallowed witch has a familiar, her hallowed witch levels stack with her sorcerer and/or wizard levels for the purposes of the familiar's advancement.

[StSword]

Yeah, no way they meant full advancement.

"Yeah let's make a prestige class that lets you advance sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid at the same time! No DM could possibly have a problem with that" said no professional game designer ever, I reckon.

But yeah i suspect few players thinking trading spells for spell like abilities a worthwhile trade, but I've seen more than one prestige class that seemed to make the odd conclusion that players who choose to play spellcasting classes don't actually care about the spellcasting.

I mean if I've ever seen a prestige class for martials designed to make you worse at combat I must have blanked it out in horror.

[redking]

Unfortunately, the Hallowed Witch is among the Ravenloft 3E line of classes (almost all of them) that have great fluff and terrible mechanics.

The writers did not consider what kind of powers a single classed character would have if they did not take levels in Hallowed Witch. Their spell-like abilities are not that great, either. A possible fix to this would be to use the spell progression of the ultimate magus and use it for the divine/arcane classes the Hallowed Witch has and remove the verbiage that the Hallowed Witch increases caster level of all spellcasting classes. So it would look like this -

Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both an arcane casting class and a divine spellcasting casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class or divine spellcasting class with the lowest caster level. For example, a 4th-level wizard/1st-level favoured soul who gained one level of hallowed witch would gain increased spellcasting ability as if she had gained a level of favoured soul (since that class's caster level is lower than his wizard caster level). If all your arcane spellcasting classes and divine spellcasting classes have equal caster levels, you can apply this benefit to any of your existing arcane spellcasting or divine spellcasting classes. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

Finally, you'd change the entry requirements to -

Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells, able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells.

Without a fix, the Hallowed Witch is an NPC class.

[eBarbarossa]

Unfortunately, the Hallowed Witch is among the Ravenloft 3E line of classes (almost all of them) that have great fluff and terrible mechanics.

Were there ever erratas for that kind of stuff?

[ciopo]

It's seems a case of poorly worded feature to me, caster level is not an unambigous game term for D&D after all. It seems to me it's implied you advance caster level (as in, spell known/spell slots) of the two class you used to qualify for the prerequisites(which among other things are 2nd level divine spellcasting and 2nd level arcane spellcasting)


Yeah, no way they meant full advancement.

"Yeah let's make a prestige class that lets you advance sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid at the same time! No DM could possibly have a problem with that" said no professional game designer ever, I reckon.

But yeah i suspect few players thinking trading spells for spell like abilities a worthwhile trade, but I've seen more than one prestige class that seemed to make the odd conclusion that players who choose to play spellcasting classes don't actually care about the spellcasting.

I mean if I've ever seen a prestige class for martials designed to make you worse at combat I must have blanked it out in horror.

Definetively agree that it potentially advancing "all" classes is unintended. However, without early entry tricks I wouldn't have a particular problem accepting it. Let's say it's a cleric 3 / wizard 3 / sorcerer 1 / druid 1 / bard 1 / othercaster 1 / witch 10

Either you start witch levels as soon as possibly to get access to higher level spells as soon as possible and therefore you are little different from a normal mystic theurge for most of your playtime, only adding the equivalent of 11th level casting of a third/fourth/nth class at 17th+ character class. Definetively powerful, but it's broad powerful,not peak powerful if that makes sense.

Or you frontload all those 1st-level and only access third level spells at like level 12, but then advance more or less by the by.

Broad selection and lots of slots makes for versatility, but you are actively avoiding "the worst" by not pursuing 8th/9th spell levels. If you think about it, an hypothetical cleric 3 / wizard 3 /harrowed witch 10 with 13th/13th casting, if adding 1 level of sorcerer adds 11th sorcerer casting... well he isn't getting anything that he couldn't already do, it's just a bunch more slots and a smattering of spell known and that flexibility of now being allowed to prepare differently in the wizard slots since he can select the cookie cutters to have multiple a day...but only of 1st-5th spell levels.


I play an arcane hierophant, currently level 16, unlocked 7th level druid and 6th level arcane spell just 2 sessions ago, I can tell you with absolute confidence 3rd and 4th spell lev3ls are my current bread and butters and I am NOT running out of them despite our rest are somewhat sparse. If I were to suddenly double those slots on the arcane side? Yeah that's basically no difference because having 12 haste/displacement/greater invisibility is of no difference from having 6 haste/displacement/greater invisibility, I'm still only using 1 of these per encounter, it's my singular 7th slot and my 3 lonely 6th level slot that are big guns. I'm still limited to 1 action per round.

[redking]

Were there ever erratas for that kind of stuff?

There was errata - see here (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/TheVault/RL_Errata.html) - but only for outright mistakes, not bad design.

[Thurbane]

Definetively agree that it potentially advancing "all" classes is unintended. However, without early entry tricks I wouldn't have a particular problem accepting it. Let's say it's a cleric 3 / wizard 3 / sorcerer 1 / druid 1 / bard 1 / othercaster 1 / witch 10

I think issues may arise when you throw a couple of fast progression classes like Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord into the mix, if you let it advance both of them, plus any base classes as gravy on top...