Is It Easy Or Difficult For Two Human Parents To Raised A Baby Gold Dragon Together?

[Bartmanhomer]

Is it easy or difficult for two human parents to raise a baby gold dragon together? For example two parents: a lawful good male human psion and a lawful good male human paladin. Both 30 years old and happily married want to raise a baby (hatchling) gold dragon as their child together.

[MandibleBones]

So they're probably going to have similar moral and ethical values, given the shared viewpoint with the Gold Dragon wyrmling's innate alignment.

Challenges are going to include housing and feeding: A Gold dragon begins life at medium size and rapidly grows to large, so a normal bedroom is right out, and once it hits Very Young is likely to eat more than both parents combined, every day.

Then there's facing the reality that dragons age differently than humans, and so will be very young for many years compared to a human child, but on the other hand the parents may not live to see them become a true young adult. But combine that with the intelligence with which dragons are born, and parents may not know how to support and raise a child who may, in fact, be smarter than they are even as a baby (probably not the psion, but possibly the paladin).

Finally, depending on how much dragons rely on instinct versus learned behavior in how to fly, how to breath fire, et cetera, your humans may not be in the best position to teach the dragon how to, well, dragon.

None of these challenges are insurmountable, but they should be taken into consideration, just as a pair of humans adopting an elven or dwarven orphan would want to take into account the difference in cultural expectations on their adopted child.

(TL;DR: Kids are hard; being a dragon makes it more so, but if it's what you want, go for it!)

[Bartmanhomer]

So they're probably going to have similar moral and ethical values, given the shared viewpoint with the Gold Dragon wyrmling's innate alignment.

Challenges are going to include housing and feeding: A Gold dragon begins life at medium size and rapidly frows to large, so a normal bedroom is right out, and once it hits Very Young is likely to eat more than both parents combined, every day.

Then there's facing the reality that dragons age differently than humans, and so will be very young for many years compared to a human child, but on the other hand the parents may not live to see them become a true young adult. But combine that with the intelligence with which dragons are born, and parents may not know how to support and raise a child who may, in fact, be smarter than they are even as a baby (probably not the psion, but possibly the paladin).

Finally, depending on how much dragons rely on instinct versus learned behavior in how to fly, how to breath fire, et cetera, your humans may not be in the best position to teach the dragon how to, well, dragon.

None of these challenges are insurmountable, but they should be taken into consideration, just as a pair of humans adopting an elven or dwarven orphan would want to take into account the difference in cultural expectations on their adopted child.

(TL;DR: Kids are hard; being a dragon makes it more so, but if it's what you want, go for it!)

Oh wow! So it is that difficult then. Thank you for telling me. :smile:

[pabelfly]

Well the Gold Dragon will never wonder if they were adopted or not.

[Maat Mons]

Gold dragons have the Alternate Form ability even in their youngest age category. So size is no issue. It can just transform into the form of a human child... or a human adult... or a halfling child... or a dog...

On the food front, the lore has never been clear on how form-altering effects interact with metabolism. If a great gold wyrm dragon spends a month disguised as a human, does it still need to eat enough food for a colossal creature every day? If so, how does it even fit all that food inside its human form?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Gold dragons have the Alternate Form ability even in their youngest age category. So size is no issue. It can just transform into the form of a human child... or a human adult... or a halfling child... or a dog...

On the food front, the lore has never been clear on how form-altering effects interact with metabolism. If a great gold wyrm dragon spends a month disguised as a human, does it still need to eat enough food for a colossal creature every day? If so, how does it even fit all that food inside its human form?

Steel dragons are known to fit into human societies so well that they willingly forget about their dragon life during this time. It would not be possible if they required the same amount of food.

That said, a gold wyrmling would not like to stay in human form all the time. They have to learn how to be a dragon, how to fly, how to control their fire and their strength, because they know that their parents won't live to see them become adult. They will have to go away someday, and that day, they will have to know about dragons.

Also, gold dragons are not just babies. They are not just fire-breathing hyper-intelligent super babies with shapechanging powers, they are fire-breathing hyper-intelligent super babies with shapechanging powers and a hero complex. Their whole mindset is focused on saving people from danger and bringing peace and happiness around them. They will ask to help the city fight every threat, and they will ask their parents to train them while they're young. I'm not sure if gold dragons are aware that gaining class levels is much much harder once they're adult and with many more HD, but being raised by adventurers will just exacerbate this trend. I can absolutely see the baby becoming a paladin in a few years.

[SangoProduction]

Also, gold dragons are not just babies. They are not just fire-breathing hyper-intelligent super babies with shapechanging powers, they are fire-breathing hyper-intelligent super babies with shapechanging powers and a hero complex. Their whole mindset is focused on saving people from danger and bringing peace and happiness around them. They will ask to help the city fight every threat, and they will ask their parents to train them while they're young. I'm not sure if gold dragons are aware that gaining class levels is much much harder once they're adult and with many more HD, but being raised by adventurers will just exacerbate this trend. I can absolutely see the baby becoming a paladin in a few years.

Reminds me of the Smallville show. lol.

[Crake]

(Most) dragons come out of the egg with the same intelligence and cognitive capabilities (including being able to speak languages) as most human adults, and are fully capable of fending for themselves as soon as they hatch. There's not actually anything a human foster parent can offer them in the way of parentage, what they usually need most of all is protection from rival, larger dragons, but there are plenty of dragon species that grow up amongst humans for their first "lifetime" as they mature, and learn about the world, literally from the moment they hatch.

So at the end of the day, the question "is it easy?" is "yes", because the dragon can take care of itself from day one. It's quite possible that the dragon will even see an attempt to "foster" it as insulting coming from a lesser species, lawful good doesn't mean it can't be arrogant after all, especially in it's earlier years of development.

[redking]

Very difficult. For one, baby dragons are very intelligent, ESPECIALLY gold dragons. With 14 Intelligence and 15 Wisdom right out of the egg, the gold dragon hatching is going to see right through any impure motivations for raising a baby dragon. The gold dragon hatching will be able to ask very pointed questions to you such as "why do you not leave me in the care of my own kind? A dragon must needs learn the ways of being a dragon from a dragon. And should you not adopt a human? Are there not thousands of orphans in the world?".

If you try to BS the gold dragon hatchling, he is going to see right through your characters.

[Mechalich]

Functionally there is no such thing as a 'baby' gold dragon in the sense that the term is used among humans (and other mammals with altricial offspring). A dragon hatches out of the egg and is, within minutes, a fully functional medium-sized predator with magical abilities and the ability to fly. In biological terms it's probably more useful to think of dragons as having instars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instar) as in the case of insects with incomplete metamorphosis. Consider, for exmaple, this graphic (https://keepinginsects.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ghost-mantis-development-and-growth-1.jpg) of praying mantis instars and how similar it is to a true dragon ascending through age categories. Dragons grow in size and gain new capabilities as they age, which changes their ecological role, but they are full functional independent beings from the moment they leave the egg. While they may recieve parental care in some cases, they do not require it.

Note that there are rules in 3.5 for raising a dragon from the egg - in Draconomicon. You need high diplomacy and handle animal scores (though the same alignment does help). The same book also has rules for taking a dragon as a mount or as a cohort.

[Quertus]

You had me at “Is It Easy Or Difficult For Two Human Parents To Raised A Baby” :smallamused:

That said, a “baby” gold dragon is likely smarter (and possibly more capable) than its parents. And that’s not a happy fate. Best case scenario, it leaves the nest at the first opportunity, with minimal psychological scarring from having to teach its adoptive parents about the world.

[hamishspence]

Dragon Magazine 320 had a guide on the subject of "Fostering Wyrmling dragons" - the young dragons potentially have a lot to gain by being fostered with humanoids - including a much wider knowledge base than feral dragons (ones which have grown up alone with no parents or foster parents). That's why many dragons deliberately foster out their children.

One of the pitfalls is that even LG wyrmlings are greedy - especially gold dragon ones. A lot of work goes into preventing them from thieving from the neighbours, passers-by, etc.

[Xervous]

Steel dragons are known to fit into human societies so well that they willingly forget about their dragon life during this time. It would not be possible if they required the same amount of food.


I distinctly remember lore entries about steel dragons going on periodic hunts or otherwise tapping the local market to get the proper volume of food. IIRC it was in Dragons of Faerun, Jalanvaloss.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I distinctly remember lore entries about steel dragons going on periodic hunts or otherwise tapping the local market to get the proper volume of food. IIRC it was in Dragons of Faerun, Jalanvaloss.

"Food is usually the dragon’s biggest problem: Although it might take the form of a man or woman, it must eat enough to maintain its true bulk. Every two weeks or so, it drops out of sight and travels to nearby wilderness areas (where it might to claim to own a hunting lodge). Here it hunts, making up for its enforced fast (at least, by dragon standards) in the city. Like other dragons, the steel variety is omnivorous, but it prefers fresh meat. It never eats domesticated herds, preying instead on wild animals – particularly those baneful to humankind."

Well remembered! That would apply to the gold wyrmling as well, and neighbours might start asking questions if you're in a city where nonhumanoid races are frowned upon (burned wolves and boars in the forest may raise a few eyebrows or even lead to citizens organizing a dragon hunt in case they think it's a red dragon). But I don't think it will be much of a problem if you're transparent from the start, both with the neighbours and with the authorities of the city. Don't expect your child to go unnoticed.

[Crake]

"Food is usually the dragon’s biggest problem: Although it might take the form of a man or woman, it must eat enough to maintain its true bulk. Every two weeks or so, it drops out of sight and travels to nearby wilderness areas (where it might to claim to own a hunting lodge). Here it hunts, making up for its enforced fast (at least, by dragon standards) in the city. Like other dragons, the steel variety is omnivorous, but it prefers fresh meat. It never eats domesticated herds, preying instead on wild animals – particularly those baneful to humankind."

Well remembered! That would apply to the gold wyrmling as well, and neighbours might start asking questions if you're in a city where nonhumanoid races are frowned upon (burned wolves and boars in the forest may raise a few eyebrows or even lead to citizens organizing a dragon hunt in case they think it's a red dragon). But I don't think it will be much of a problem if you're transparent from the start, both with the neighbours and with the authorities of the city. Don't expect your child to go unnoticed.

Solved by a ring of sustenance however. Seems like dragons hunt (for the most part) out of necessity more than desire or psychological need, and so a ring of sustenance, or other form of nutrient provision, will completely cut out the need to go hunt and thus potentially give up your charade.

[Ramza00]

Steel dragons are known to fit into human societies so well that they willingly forget about their dragon life during this time. It would not be possible if they required the same amount of food.

That said, a gold wyrmling would not like to stay in human form all the time. They have to learn how to be a dragon, how to fly, how to control their fire and their strength, because they know that their parents won't live to see them become adult. They will have to go away someday, and that day, they will have to know about dragons.

Also, gold dragons are not just babies. They are not just fire-breathing hyper-intelligent super babies with shapechanging powers, they are fire-breathing hyper-intelligent super babies with shapechanging powers and a hero complex. Their whole mindset is focused on saving people from danger and bringing peace and happiness around them. They will ask to help the city fight every threat, and they will ask their parents to train them while they're young. I'm not sure if gold dragons are aware that gaining class levels is much much harder once they're adult and with many more HD, but being raised by adventurers will just exacerbate this trend. I can absolutely see the baby becoming a paladin in a few years.

Bonus points if the Hatchlings name is Clark and they raising him on a farm.

[Telonius]

Age is the biggest factor, I think. 30 year old humans; they'll be around (minimum) 42 - (maximum) 80 more years, assuming they die of old age and not being eaten by monsters. Gold Dragons are Juvenile from 26-50 and Young Adult from 51-100. If the Gold Dragon is starting at zero when they're 30, unless there's some kind of magical intervention (or Epic feats) the parents aren't going to survive to see the dragon reach Adulthood.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Age is the biggest factor, I think. 30 year old humans; they'll be around (minimum) 42 - (maximum) 80 more years, assuming they die of old age and not being eaten by monsters. Gold Dragons are Juvenile from 26-50 and Young Adult from 51-100. If the Gold Dragon is starting at zero when they're 30, unless there's some kind of magical intervention (or Epic feats) the parents aren't going to survive to see the dragon reach Adulthood.

As was already said, age is very relative when you're dealing with true dragons. "Adulthood" for a dragon is the moment in life when they settle down and have the urge to have children of their own and care for them. Most dragons are already self-sufficient when Very Young, and often leave their parent's nest at that age, or when they are Young at the latest (so basically, at a similar age as we humans do). The main reason is that it's around that age that their innate greed starts to develop, and they gain an urge to own something for themselves, including their own "nest", or maybe house for a dragon raised among humans. I'm not saying the dragon's dads are not going to keep contact with them and would not love to see them grow to "true" adulthood, but they should not worry about the dragon lacking education even if they die a bit young.

[Ramza00]

Dragon Magazine 320 had a guide on the subject of "Fostering Wyrmling dragons" - the young dragons potentially have a lot to gain by being fostered with humanoids - including a much wider knowledge base than feral dragons (ones which have grown up alone with no parents or foster parents). That's why many dragons deliberately foster out their children.

One of the pitfalls is that even LG wyrmlings are greedy - especially gold dragon ones. A lot of work goes into preventing them from thieving from the neighbours, passers-by, etc.


As was already said, age is very relative when you're dealing with true dragons. "Adulthood" for a dragon is the moment in life when they settle down and have the urge to have children of their own and care for them. Most dragons are already self-sufficient when Very Young, and often leave their parent's nest at that age, or when they are Young at the latest (so basically, at a similar age as we humans do). The main reason is that it's around that age that their innate greed starts to develop, and they gain an urge to own something for themselves, including their own "nest", or maybe house for a dragon raised among humans. I'm not saying the dragon's dads are not going to keep contact with them and would not love to see them grow to "true" adulthood, but they should not worry about the dragon lacking education even if they die a bit young.

One adventure hook that may work is if the Psion is level 9 or higher the Psion could have access to Psionic Planeshift and Teleport and it can affect the entire party. Thus the Wyrmling Good Dragon depends on the Psion and Paladin humanoid parents to provide a sense of direction to help excite the wanderlust and need for adventure / exploration / and experience of the outside world.

These experiences of the outside, in turn help the Wyrmling to integrate their inherited but unorganised genetic memories of their previous generation which is similar to a bird imprinting. The hoarding instinct does not kick in until the dragon is age 16 or so (Young) and it is not until roughly 100 (Adult) does the dragon transform their hoarding instinct into long term plans with an expanded or multiple lairs and seeing this world as theirs and they need to craft a home to their specifications during that time.

So with me if I were playing this campaigns I would focus on themes of inside and outside and the various combinations of these two. Dragons have some form of genetic memory, they also long term want to covet a world in a grain of sand, and eternity in an hour, to want such a thing is to make the outside into the inside, and the inside into the outside.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43650/auguries-of-innocence

So play with the contradictions and combinations of these two. It is not about knowledge, or intelligence. It is about experience, empathy, theory of mind, being sociable and so on. Help encourage the gold dragon Wyrmling to find it exciting to interact with the outside, an instinct that it needs to be nurtured against the upcoming instinct to possess, to covet, to be defensive of the outside by finding treasure and then storing it in a lair.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They could always spend time on a timeless plane so the parents can prevent themselves from aging while there, and either they can have their little wyrmling for longer, or they could invest in an acorn of far travel so the little dragon grows normally.

[noob]

Is it easy or difficult for two human parents to raise a baby gold dragon together? For example two parents: a lawful good male human psion and a lawful good male human paladin. Both 30 years old and happily married want to raise a baby (hatchling) gold dragon as their child together.

Horribly easy: they are born able to talk and already well versed in how to behave (lawful good from birth) and can literally eat anything including rocks (according to draconomicon), failing to raise such creature would take effort or unluck (ex: some creatures hunts it).
With how easy they are to raise, it is likely the main reason there is not more gold dragons around is people who likes to kill gold dragons for fun combined with the fact they can not reproduce before being 51 years old (shorter than for elves, if dragons were not such convenient source of precious ingredients then there would likely be more gold dragons than elves).

[hamishspence]

Draconomicon also stresses that while they can digest rocks, what they are is carnivores, who are at their happiest when they're eating half their weight in meat every day.

As well as saying that it's not easy raising them - and suggesting that even the nice ones will regard their foster parents as captors or fools, unless a lot of diplomatic work is done.

As I pointed out, "inborn alignment tendencies" still have nuance - that (at least according to Dragon Magazine) gold dragon wyrmlings are greedy and have a thieving streak - regardless of how atypical this is of LG.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Totally Lawful and Good, yep. At least as Good as Elves are, what with their inborn genocidal xenophobia and all.

D&D's alignments are...FUBAR'd.

[Quertus]

“I fully understand morality… except for property laws.”

Now why does this sound familiar? :smallmad:

[noob]

“I fully understand morality… except for property laws.”

Now why does this sound familiar? :smallmad:

So does it means that now we can use gold dragons as Kender substitutes?
Or are all gold dragons just Kenders who forgot diets were a thing?

[Beni-Kujaku]

So does it means that now we can use gold dragons as Kender substitutes?
Or are all gold dragons just Kenders who forgot diets were a thing?

No, kenders are "nobody was actively using it, so I can use it, and I don't want to give it back because I think I will need it later".
Gold dragons are "I mean, the whole world will eventually belong to me, this is just skipping forward."

[wilphe]

Note that there are rules in 3.5 for raising a dragon from the egg - in Draconomicon. You need high diplomacy and handle animal scores (though the same alignment does help). The same book also has rules for taking a dragon as a mount or as a cohort.

IRC the same source says Gold Dragons do foster their young with humans - albeit normally at a royal court.

This does mean that any precocious 6 year old you meet in such circumstances is one you should probably be wary of.

[noob]

IRC the same source says Gold Dragons do foster their young with humans - albeit normally at a royal court.

This does mean that any precocious 6 year old you meet in such circumstances is one you should probably be wary of.

They use alter self so the newborn dragon could probably decide to directly look like an 90 year old human if it wished to.
A dragon taking the appearance of 6 year old being unlikely because the dragon would likely not want to be treated like an human child.

[Bohandas]

So they're probably going to have similar moral and ethical values, given the shared viewpoint with the Gold Dragon wyrmling's innate alignment.

Challenges are going to include housing and feeding

Feeding probably wouldn't be as much of a problem as you might expect given that dragons in D&D are (non-obligate) lithovores. The trick would be knowing this fact

[Promethean]

That said, a gold wyrmling would not like to stay in human form all the time. They have to learn how to be a dragon, how to fly, how to control their fire and their strength, because they know that their parents won't live to see them become adult. They will have to go away someday, and that day, they will have to know about dragons.


Funny thing about gold dragons if we use lore, they actually prefer human form to their draconic form(a trait they share with silvers).

The wyrmling is more likely to throw a hissy fit any time you make it Leave human form rather than the reverse.

If 2e lore still applies, golds are unique in that they retain the ability to fly while polymorphed... so Never take your eyes off them, even in human form. They're effectively a toddler with 3d maneuverability.

[Ramza00]

Funny thing about gold dragons if we use lore, they actually prefer human form to their draconic form(a trait they share with silvers).

The wyrmling is more likely to throw a hissy fit any time you make it Leave human form rather than the reverse.

If 2e lore still applies, golds are unique in that they retain the ability to fly while polymorphed... so Never take your eyes off them, even in human form. They're effectively a toddler with 3d maneuverability.

What is their maneuverability and flight speed while polymorph? Do the Gold Dragon toddlers act like Peter Pan for a few decades prior to settling down as Lawful Good?

[Promethean]

What is their maneuverability and flight speed while polymorph? Do the Gold Dragon toddlers act like Peter Pan for a few decades prior to settling down as Lawful Good?

Same as their dragon form.

For the second point, maybe.. would depend on the wyrmling and their veiws on what "lawful" means.

[Ramza00]

That is the thing about toddler socialization and teen socialization (we are assuming this human sociability translates to dragons)

They are still figuring it out, sure they have a lawful trace, an imaginary they are testing as the thesis, but they are also pushing the boundaries, finding the limits, etc. It is not pure habit (yet).

Peter Pan Lawful Good dragons are possible 🤔

[aglondier]

Alignment isn't set in stone. Sure, a gold dragon is naturally inclined towards being orderly and generally benevolent, but events in its childhood can definitely send it in new and interesting directions. A gold dragon raised by a thieves guild will definitely express the draconic greed natural to all dragons, just as a red dragon raised in a monastery may have a strong self discipline despite its nature.

This would be why hatchlings would be fostered out to humanoids of appropriate moral standing.

Particularly for a species with a tendency to nap for years or decades at a time. Parent dragon takes a brief nap, and suddenly your kid is a rebellious teen with a case of kleptomania...

Easier to have a shorter lived species with a better attention span babysit for a while...