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Satyr
2007-12-01, 05:05 AM
Imagine a campaign setting in which no gods exist, or the existing gods completely refuse to interact with mortals (in the end, there is no difference between these two approaches).

Now you have the normal amount of magic flowing around. Wizards sit in their towers and academies and study their big tomes, sorcerers have magic running through their veins, druids sit in their groves and bottlefeed bambi and his friends, etc.
But what happens to clerics? They are supposed to have the same kind of spellcasting (even if the division between arcane and divine is faded, because it doesn't make sense to call anything divine when it can't be of divine origin). They should have domains, a certain number of spells per day, etc. Mechanically, this should still be the same cleric as in the PHB (more or less).

Solution A: A cleric cheats himself. He needs to believe in the god they worship, or their magic cease to function. Therefore, a cleric who suffers from a crisis in faith loses his ability to cast spells and is ripe for an Atonement. The power to fuel the spellcasting comes from the cleric himself.

Solution B: The god itself is irrelevant, and the god is only a metaphor for the cosmoligical principle it represents. Said principe is the enery source of the cleric, and the god does not matter (therefore, the clerics with the same domains who worship different gods have access to the same spells).

Solution C: Actually, there is no difference between wizards and clerics. They are educated in a certain way of magic, and use said magic. Only the rituals and ceremonies differ. Clerics do not have to worship or even believe in their god.

What solution would you recommend? Or have you other - probably better - ideas how 'divine' magic could work in a world without gods?

Hagentai
2007-12-01, 05:25 AM
I've had players and dms (who normally lack faith out of game) try to bs in a cleric working for a ideal or greater good.

I guess if your comfortable with that, they'd be just as powerful as before.

Rad
2007-12-01, 05:36 AM
Clerics say that their power comes from the gods and that they only bestow their power to those who have faith and dedicate themselves to them.
Atheists say that clerics only cheat themselves and just draw their force from primal magic, in a similar way than sorcerers do. Some might think that the clerics are cheaters and some might think that fooling oneself is the only way to get the right state of mind to channel this power.
As for why the gods do not interfere... they created the world to function this way; if they wanted to change anything it would be so in the first place. Do not try to grasp their ways as they are unreachable by mortals...
All in all,whether the gods exist or not is up to personal belief, like it is in the real world. The fact that priests have magic is not a proof of the gods'existence when everybody and their storyteller can tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down. It also allows to roleplay faith in a deeper way than just "joining team Thakisis".

Exclusive cleric spells... there are some classes that manage to get some via eclectic learning, but they are all somewhat spontaneous... it's just yet another quirk of this kind of magic.
Ditto for paladins.

Hope this helps

Yami
2007-12-01, 05:36 AM
I've always just gone with Solution A in such scenarios. B seems kinda weak sauce to me, and C doesn't quite mesh with the whole casting in armour thing.

Chronicled
2007-12-01, 05:39 AM
Not exactly the solution you're looking for, but a cleric I've DM'ed for received his power from the spirits of the dead; specifically, the spirits of the fallen warriors of his clan/tribe. He meditated and communed with them for an hour to gain his spells each day--rather than having them "grant" him spells, the meditation established a spiritual link letting him tap into their power. He enjoyed roleplaying it, and the other players thought it was cool.

Morty
2007-12-01, 05:48 AM
I'm personally in favor of option A, that's what I used in my setting. Gods may or may not exist, but if they do, they don't give a damn about what's happening down on earth. Clerics are casting spells because they and other worshippers belive that the gods do look upon their followers, and by their faith they're able to shape the world. So of course a doubtful cleric will have troubles with spellcasting.

GolemsVoice
2007-12-01, 05:59 AM
The question is: Does the world know wether the gods exist or not?
If they know, and it's a common fact, than clerics have a hard time believing in anything, which would make the cleric-concept rather obsolete. In this world, they could worship principles, just as a standard paladin can be a paladin of good, rather than of a singular god. So these clerics would, for example, worship good, evil, gravitiy, wedding cakes, whatever gives them enough power to cast.

If it is not know wether god exists and influences the world, there might be all signs of an active worship, like churches, prayers, rituals, the like. Officialy, the spells clerics cast are seen as a manifestation of the deities will, but this is not true. It's up to you if this fact is known (making for an interesting status quo versus stop the lying situation) or unkown, with the clerics cheating themselvey without knowing it.

Premier
2007-12-01, 06:02 AM
Personally, I feel that declaring the gameworld to have no gods and then still have essentially the same divine spellcaster cleric class as in standard D&D is sort of cheating - it's trying to have your cake (by coming up with a profound and far-reaching twist) and eat it too (by still allowing the same clerics to be running around with some "workaround").

If I was running a setting like that, I'd just go full hog and eliminate the cleric class altogether. Or redesign it based on real-life priesthood, who manage to do pretty fine despite not casting spell.
If you still want to have organised religion and a PC class that's specifically about working in it, you could just create a class like that. Say, a class which has lots of scholarly knowledge, high charisma, commands great respect from all layers of society, and has a bunch of practical knowledge as well - speaking languages, healing with natural herbs and the like, probably dabbling in alchemy, and/or arcane-base divination, blessings and curses. And of course they would have the support of a large and powerful organisation which is something that fighters, thieves or magic users probably don't have.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 06:26 AM
Well, you could do the whole 'different school' of mage going on a bit cheap but it works...

if the gods are there but rarely if ever intervene, then clerics can be present like they normally are. As long as the gods do in fact exist, there is no problem. If gods do not exist, then there is a problem and if there is to be 'divine' magic, it should be either a different school or perhaps the people's way of trying to tap the power that gave life to the cosmos. After all...shamans cast spells as clerics and they invoke spirits and the earth...so why not?

If gods are there but do not interfere it could be very simple...the gods have made an agreement of non-interference. No direct contact with the mortal world, just influence, granting magic, etc...the rules are binding between all deities...the penalty for breaching the agreement is that all other dieties are free to break the rules in the same way. Exceptions to the rule...servents may act in your stead, avatars may witness and walk the planet but only in secret and may not use their powers to interfere. A diety is allowed to defend itself, but never to kill a mortal unless the mortal poses a threat to the deity (interpreted loosly). Also, the rules don't hold for any mortal not on the prime, or prforming an act that transcends the dealings of mortals (like giving a powerful artifact to a rival god...that makes it a godly issue and not a mortal one and marks the mortal as a direct servent and fair game same as any other servent)

The above 'gentlemen's agreement is my favorite way of handling the gods...they walk amongst the populace in secret, never directly interfering lest another deity also interfere...and when someone does...all hell usually breaks loose. A direct blessing gives rise to other champions...an unchannled resurrection allows another to be raised. it gets fun.

Riffington
2007-12-01, 06:37 AM
Do you have other (non-divine) supernatural creatures?
Perhaps clerics derive their magic from a pact with demons or Old Ones?
I personally think it would be awesome sauce to have a world where all clerics -good or evil- had to beg their power from evil entities...

Satyr
2007-12-01, 06:49 AM
There is no 'roof' ofd the god's existance. No one have ever seen a god, met one, talked to ne. That doesn't stop people from believing in them, though. The different religions work well enough without proof.

I have forgotten Solution D: While the class uses most of the mechanics of a cleric, the flavour is changed, as well as the name - there are revamped clerics, wizards and sorcerers who are all part of a clergy.
(This solution has the problem that I have to come up with a satisfying aslternative fluff for the cleric...), probably making some kind of shaman out of it. I particularly like the idea about worshipping the ancerstors of the tribe. Even though it doesn't work that well in a more impeialistic/feudal setting...

Edit: Yeah, there could be something like the great old ones who grants spells top their cultisdts, but that doesn't really scream "PC class!"

Iku Rex
2007-12-01, 06:57 AM
My version:

The gods do not exist (or don't interfere), but the beliefs of millions of sophonts constitute a powerful source of magical energy. In order to draw on this energy a spellcaster must be attuned to it - he must belive, strongly and unquestioningly.

Jarchh
2007-12-01, 06:57 AM
It's been a while since I've played a dragonlance game (atleast a couple of years) so sorry if I'm wrong. But I have a feeling that in the dragonlance campaign setting, there are time periods where what you're talking about actually occuring. This is lead by the gods being unable to find the campaign world and thus not being able to grant powers to their clerics. If I remember rightly in this time period clerics cant exist as their powers come directly from the gods, but instead they're replaced by a class called mystics, or something like that, which in effect do the same thing (cast devine spells in a similar way), but instead draw their powers from belief in theirselves not their gods.

So I'd assume that sure you could have a character who worships a god, but unless that god can actually interact with the character in anyway they couldnt be a cleric, or atleast they could be a "cleric" but they wouldnt have any of their divine powers as the power source that their drawing upon isnt available.

ghost_warlock
2007-12-01, 07:17 AM
Other than the Silver Flame, the gods on Eberron may or may not exist since they don't interact with mortals anyway. Clerics there seem to function just fine.

As for clerics needing to "cheat themselves," there's nothing wrong with a cleric being devoted to an ideal or a philosophy and receiving their power from such. Heck, it's core; in the PHB on page 30. By Core, clerics don't technically NEED gods for their power any more than wizards do.

For many players, gods are an easy solution to the source of divine energy. But, really, why do gods make more sense than some other energy source, such as sheer belief, force of will (admittedly stepping on the toes of psionics a bit, there), or some strange between-the-planes energy? Maybe clerics think that they get their power from gods, but actually all receive it from other powerful outsiders.

For that matter, morality is anything but gray in many D&D games. Alignment is an attribute, a semi-vital statistic*, and a mechanical device that affects the way magic works. Protection from evil, blashphemy, many other spells, and some forms of damage reduction all depend on alignment. Maybe, instead of some deity, clerics drawn their power from the Alignments themselves. In this case, a cleric may not draw his/her power from devotion to an alignment-based principle or philosophy, but directly from some manifestation of the alignment itself. Alignment could be somewhat like oxygen atoms; all around the characters but essentially invisible to them. Complete Mage has some fluff about magic in general being like this, alignment could work the same way and grant clerics their power.

* Perhaps not a primary attribute like Strength or Wisdom, but maybe something like touch AC or size.

Satyr
2007-12-01, 07:32 AM
As for clerics needing to "cheat themselves," there's nothing wrong with a cleric being devoted to an ideal or a philosophy and receiving their power from such. Heck, it's core; in the PHB on page 30. By Core, clerics don't technically NEED gods for their power any more than wizards do.

Yeah, but according to core, you could be a cleric of YOURSELF and grant yourself 1st and 2nd level spells...

Arakune
2007-12-01, 07:48 AM
Personally, I feel that declaring the gameworld to have no gods and then still have essentially the same divine spellcaster cleric class as in standard D&D is sort of cheating - it's trying to have your cake (by coming up with a profound and far-reaching twist) and eat it too (by still allowing the same clerics to be running around with some "workaround").

If I was running a setting like that, I'd just go full hog and eliminate the cleric class altogether. Or redesign it based on real-life priesthood, who manage to do pretty fine despite not casting spell.
If you still want to have organised religion and a PC class that's specifically about working in it, you could just create a class like that. Say, a class which has lots of scholarly knowledge, high charisma, commands great respect from all layers of society, and has a bunch of practical knowledge as well - speaking languages, healing with natural herbs and the like, probably dabbling in alchemy, and/or arcane-base divination, blessings and curses. And of course they would have the support of a large and powerful organisation which is something that fighters, thieves or magic users probably don't have.

Interesting that almost no one uses this approach. This is, technically, a Medieval Fantasy game and yet almost no sign of what happened in the medieval-feudal period are show in the game, like how the religion/cleric order interact with people and politics and instead are concerned with the spells/domains of the cleric. It is possible to show that in a normal D&D campaign, but it's not the first thing that comes in people mind, maybe because they like the CodZilla, or at least, want the possibility to make one.

Satyr
2007-12-01, 08:04 AM
In the setting I think of, Ordination would probably be a feat which gives you a bonus to social skills when dealing with people from the same religious background. The same is true for Knighthood or Noble Heritage.

But in deed, I think I'm better off without clerics. That way, I have wildness magicians (shamans and druids) who are empowered by the environment and urban, 'civilized' magicians like wizards and sorcerers. That should suffice.

Rigon
2007-12-01, 08:10 AM
domains... i think the answer lies in the domains. domains = beliefs.
you bear the cross of the domain you choose... this would mean you have to wear a sign for all domains you represent (and this would replace the God's magical symbol, maybe an amulet with the symbols of each domain merged together). if you believe that "altruism(healing i mean) can save the world" or that "death is inevitable" or "evil shall rule" or anything like this "strong enough", you gain magical abilities. and with your travels you gain experience and your views change/expand little by little, allowing you take new domains. and obviously this would limit your aligment (you can't take an aligment opposed to your domain or you will lose all powers sourced from that domain).

psychoticbarber
2007-12-01, 10:26 AM
This is the take that I'm using for my game:

Nobody knows if the Gods are real.

Not even me.

The point of this is that there are Clerics, who believe in the Gods (or God, in some cases, I have some monotheistic faiths), and who cast spells. Do the Gods grant those Clerics the spells? Some (many) people think so. The Clerics certainly do. Those who don't think the Gods do anything tend to believe that the power comes from within, channeled through faith. But those who know are those who have died and refused to return. Everybody has some sort of belief, but nobody really knows for sure where magic (arcane OR divine) comes from.

Renx
2007-12-01, 10:29 AM
If I was running a setting like that, I'd just go full hog and eliminate the cleric class altogether. Or redesign it based on real-life priesthood, who manage to do pretty fine despite not casting spell.
If you still want to have organised religion and a PC class that's specifically about working in it, you could just create a class like that. Say, a class which has lots of scholarly knowledge, high charisma, commands great respect from all layers of society, and has a bunch of practical knowledge as well - speaking languages, healing with natural herbs and the like, probably dabbling in alchemy, and/or arcane-base divination, blessings and curses. And of course they would have the support of a large and powerful organisation which is something that fighters, thieves or magic users probably don't have.

...and, of course, has fun with choirboys whenever they have time.

Fiery Diamond
2007-12-01, 10:36 AM
Howdy.

I DM, and I always homebrew my worlds. My most recent one is like your opening post says - there are no gods. My solution for clerics: they are devoted to a cause, similar to the way a paladin would be, but without the alignment and code restrictions. There are still "temples," but they serve merely as a focal point for clerics and a place of organization. The clerics' magic comes from the "spiritual," as opposed to the wizards' magic coming from the "material." Soul vs. Body, basically. In the end, gods are unnecessary to my campaign world.

- Fiery Diamond

Mikeavelli
2007-12-01, 01:19 PM
sounds a lot like Dark Sun (www.athas.org).

Essentially, the conduits that allow human belief to funnel up to the gods don't exist on Athas, so gods can't exist. And even if they did, they wouldn't be able to grant spells. Worshippers of gods existed, back in the day, but they didn't get spells.

Clerical magic comes either from the Elemental Planes, which are just a re-tooled standard Cleric class - or from the Sorceror Kings, godlike Wizard\Psion\Dragons that gained spiritual conduits (like the ones that don't work for gods) at the same time they gained immortality and all sorts of kickass powers.

The ones who've survived to present day (Immortality just means they don't age. Getting beaten to death by giant black lens still works) - can grant spells to their followers along the same lines as true gods could.

The Dregoth Ascending modules revolve around this theme.

SurlySeraph
2007-12-01, 02:18 PM
Lack of gods definitely doesn't mean lack of sources of spiritual power. Here are a few places clerics could draw power from:
Ancestors
Their race as a whole (sort of like a psionic link - think the Protoss in Starcraft)
Nature, or a specific part of nature (the sea, the plains, the forest, etc.)
Different planes of existence
A specific magical location, like a rift of magical energies
Morality (their belief itself powers their spells)
Light or darkness

Talkkno
2007-12-01, 02:36 PM
The Athar nuff said.

Theodoxus
2007-12-01, 02:39 PM
Just make divine magic be psionic in nature. Problem solved. Sure, the cleric believes his power comes from a divine source, but it's really just a manifestation of his psionic power - self delusionment so to speak.

He can still use armor (yay no ACP for psionics), can be a member of a Church, and fullfill all the obligations of a devote divine follower, with never actually ever being in contact with a god. Basically, 'Voices in my head' taken to the extreme.

Actually, I kinda like this idea... I might just incorporate this world view into my current rogue... not as a cleric himself, but how he will now see all clerics here on out... (until such time as one of the FR gods zaps him in his sleep - they're kinda predisposed to proving their existance.)

:)

Theo

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-01, 04:22 PM
Solution A: A cleric cheats himself. He needs to believe in the god they worship, or their magic cease to function. Therefore, a cleric who suffers from a crisis in faith loses his ability to cast spells and is ripe for an Atonement. The power to fuel the spellcasting comes from the cleric himself.

Solution B: The god itself is irrelevant, and the god is only a metaphor for the cosmological principle it represents. Said principle is the energy source of the cleric, and the god does not matter (therefore, the clerics with the same domains who worship different gods have access to the same spells).


I sort of use both these.

In my setting, there are no gods - or at least, there are no gods granting spells to the clerics. Whether some divine force created the multiverse or whatever isn't relevant: there are no extraplanar power granting blessings to worshippers.

Meanwhile Clerics cast spells, turn undead and get domain access, because magic works that way - their belief is strong enough, so they have spells. Rather than the sorcerer imposing their view on the world, the cleric draws on the power of faith to change the world.

A cleric faced with a crisis of faith loses powers, sure - but a cleric faced with ultimate, incontrovertible proof that his god is a fiction... well, he has two options: realise that he got the powers he used to access through no-one but himself, or lose his abilities and walk that old atonement path again.
I make this a Wisdom check, DC 25.

GolemsVoice
2007-12-01, 05:49 PM
You might also want to take a look at the "Holy Light" of the Warcraft world. In short, it has the belief that everybody has a link to the universe, by perceiving it and knowing it is there. By strengthening this bound, which is achieved by making people happy, you can make the universe itself a better place, which will in turn make you, as you are connected to the universe, happier.
There is no god behind this faith, but still the priests and paladins of the Light gain enough power by believing it and living according o the three virtues that they can cas divine magic. By connecting themselves to the universe, they unlock their own magic.

philippos
2007-12-01, 09:51 PM
In the world I am running right now, there are religions and members from the cleric class. These religoins are; emperor worship, ancestor worship, and a "normal" pantheon of animistic gods. The first emperor was a high level sorcerer, and his direct line has inherited some of his powers. The official line of that church is that the emperor is the incarnation of the sun (ancient egypt, ne?) but they have always really just been human or in the case of the first one superhuman. the other groups are similar but vary in level of organization. And some of the Animists go so far as to seek out dire animals of the godform they worship. Also one of my players is a cleric PC who was part of the imperal church but is now dedicated to bringing it down (knowladge, war) and his is a personal quest.

that is the system I use for my campaign world, but my personal feelings are.

Wis based casters are faith based they believe SOMETHING and this is how they direct power, and attonement is more to get them back into the proper mind frame.
Int based casters are intellect based they have figured out something about the way the world works, and use their higher than average intellegence to exploit that.
Cha based casters are personallity based, it works more like an average between the two.


and while not a perfect, complete or most probablly the best system it works well enough as fluff to explain the mechanics that I leave unchanged. although based on it i suppose there is room for Int based clerics and Wis based sorcerers in it. Hmmm hadn't thought of that.

Aquillion
2007-12-02, 01:01 AM
Isn't Eberron basically like this?

Satyr
2007-12-02, 06:49 AM
The campaign setting I'm currently want to design will work with three different flavors of magic - hereditary magic, like those of sorcerers (with innate magical abilities and charisma as a basic attribute), hermetic magic (with spellbooks, long training and intelligence as the basical ability - the magic of wizards) and spiritual magic, based on the spirit world and a deep understanding of the supernatural.
Hereditary magic simply is and is only based on the will and character strength of its user; hermetic magic is based upon an inner logic. It works on a base of rationality and an almost scientific approach. Spiritual magic on the other hand is almost completely based on intution and emotion; it is not based on logic and thougtt but on dream and passion. Hermetic magic works within a prefixed set of rules, spiritual magic doesn't.

This works well enough with all classes as a background explanation - it somewhat excludes the cleric. Or, better said, I think a religious magician is better imaged as a wizard. (And since there will be little to no undeads in the campaign, the other ability of clrics apart from, spellcasting will be useless most of the time and will hardly be an important class feature.
I think I will build a cleric surrogate class on the base of the shugenja, but ith a different flavor (a pact between the caster and an elemenetal spirit, I think) and with Wisdom instead of Charisma as base ability for spell casting.

Though, some questions: Is the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine a balanced and fun to play class? (I really don't know. Never played one, never seen one played) Is there any other divine full caster class which does not use the druid's spell list - apart from those in Complete Divine? (because it is somewhat repetitive if all classses of a certain flavor uses the exactly same spells)

philippos
2007-12-02, 09:57 AM
Th Is there any other divine full caster class which does not use the druid's spell list - apart from those in Complete Divine? (because it is somewhat repetitive if all classses of a certain flavor uses the exactly same spells)

The cloistered varriety is maybe from Complete Divine but it seems like maybe just what you are looking for.

Also couldn't you smack cleric and wizard togther easily enough, basically give a wizard divine magic instead of arcane. But keep skills/ feats/ saves? (et cetera)