Rulesets as artforms - writing a game never intended to be played?

[NichG]

I had this odd thought that it might be an interesting exercise to write a game from a perspective of not worrying at all about how the game would function in play, just to see what sort of things one might include if not for 'there's no good way to do that at the table' or 'that's going to mess with party dynamics at a metagame level' or things like that. Even though its sort of silly, I wonder if there would be something to the exercise. Maybe one would see some things laid out that were being ignored because they just seemed totally intractable to actually be part of a functioning game - but if you have the parameters of what you'd like them to be clear, it might be easier to actually go and make them function than if it were just like 'yeah that can't work'. Now you have the spec, so searching for better implementations can be done independently, that sort of thing.

There's also maybe an aesthetic or an artistry to that sort of project I guess, which might just be appealing in its own right - to read it but never actually attempt to play it.

Crazy, or is there something to it?

Edit: I almost think this might be the perfect way to appreciate really heavy, detailed simulationist systems. Reading the details and seeing 'aha, thats how the author organizes these things' is maybe more interesting than actually using those rules to actually evaluate anything.

[Quertus]

“Rules-heavy Simulationist” is definitely what I thought when I first read your proposal, but I don’t see why one couldn’t propose unified mechanics, like Dread, in such a context, either.

[flond]

This type of game exists, though many of them are more art piece than anything. The collective name that went around itch.io is lyric game.

Examples include the tragedy at GJ237b
Where you set up an obscure game ostensibly played by microbes in a room and when someone enters the room they play the human probe that unknowingly destroys that life.

And fight truck. A game about queer people fighting in a truck.

[Easy e]

Most indie game designers are writing games no one is going to play.

[halfeye]

This could be extended to almost everything:

Micro-processors that could never run,
Tools that could never have a use,
Clothes that could never be worn,
Etc.

Once you cross the boundary of "could be useful", there is no further limit.

[Anonymouswizard]

This type of game exists, though many of them are more art piece than anything. The collective name that went around itch.io is lyric game.

Examples include the tragedy at GJ237b
Where you set up an obscure game ostensibly played by microbes in a room and when someone enters the room they play the human probe that unknowingly destroys that life.

And fight truck. A game about queer people fighting in a truck.

I actually thought of Nobilis first, which is admittedly much more general and probably more playable than the one's you've mentioned. I also get the feeling that weird concepts and unplayable systems have more to do with breaking assumptions than being actually unplayable.

Within tabletop RPGs we have some assumptions that we tend to make in various ways, including a presumed breadth to the simulation and a focus on media emulation. The latter is actually quite interesting to dig into, as it's the entire reason so many RPGs end up defaulting to physical conflict as a focus. When you break that assumption or start redirecting to more obscure media people have less references for how your rules should actually work.

[flond]

I actually thought of Nobilis first, which is admittedly much more general and probably more playable than the one's you've mentioned. I also get the feeling that weird concepts and unplayable systems have more to do with breaking assumptions than being actually unplayable.

Within tabletop RPGs we have some assumptions that we tend to make in various ways, including a presumed breadth to the simulation and a focus on media emulation. The latter is actually quite interesting to dig into, as it's the entire reason so many RPGs end up defaulting to physical conflict as a focus. When you break that assumption or start redirecting to more obscure media people have less references for how your rules should actually work.

I think you're correct, though as a regular player of Jenna Moran games I never thought of them that way.

Her game The Flood where you farm poetry probably counts too.

[KorvinStarmast]

Most indie game designers are writing games no one is going to play.


The latter is actually quite interesting to dig into, as it's the entire reason so many RPGs end up defaulting to physical conflict as a focus. Golden Sky Stories called, and advises you that there are games that don't do that. :smallwink:

[NichG]

I actually thought of Nobilis first, which is admittedly much more general and probably more playable than the one's you've mentioned. I also get the feeling that weird concepts and unplayable systems have more to do with breaking assumptions than being actually unplayable.

Within tabletop RPGs we have some assumptions that we tend to make in various ways, including a presumed breadth to the simulation and a focus on media emulation. The latter is actually quite interesting to dig into, as it's the entire reason so many RPGs end up defaulting to physical conflict as a focus. When you break that assumption or start redirecting to more obscure media people have less references for how your rules should actually work.

One of the things that got me thinking about this was an idea for how a system could absolutely not have rules for or built around the existence of combat, but where combat could emerge from those rules.

E.g. imagine something like DangerCrafting, with a bunch of rules for the sorts of industrial accidents and injuries one could get in them, including e.g. injury by falling object. Then when people want to have a fight in that game, they end up modeling it as 'dropping objects horizontally at each other'.

Sort of as a commentary of how often the noncombat parts of combat games get treated like extensions of the assumptions that primarily exist for sake of combat.

Edit: And I've played Nobilis and would again, its actually pretty playable...

[Anonymouswizard]

Golden Sky Stories called, and advises you that there are games that don't do that. :smallwink:

...yes. I own Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine, and know that other successful cozy and/or no combat games exist. Although I'd argue that physical conflict can still theoretically be a big part of a cozy game, imagine one centered around School's martial arts club. I was specifically being unabsolute.

FWIW, the main reason I don't own GSS is because I'm really not a fan of the Little Bit Beasty look. I can also easily imagine a game of Ryuutama without using the combat system, it's setup is great for personal conflicts.

[Cluedrew]

I don't know about "never intended to be played" but I have designed whole systems around very particular concepts.

For example, what is the entire system was designed around random character generation? It wasn't just "oh well, its not like you get a character creation screen at birth" but setting was built around a bunch of people being thrown into a new world with new powers that they had very little control over. Plus making it so that who is "overpowered" gets pushed around a bit and things like that.

I also created a combat system that was designed to simulate the feel of action movie combat more than D&D's exchange of blows system. Never created the rest of the system so I'm not sure how well it succeeded on that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Most indie game designers are writing games no one is going to play.


FWIW, the main reason I don't own GSS is because I'm really not a fan of the Little Bit Beasty look. I can see that, it's a particular aesthetic that has its own appeal, or lack thereof.

As to the OP: your title brought to mind this movie title ....Suppose_They_Gave_a_War_and_Nobody_Came (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppose_They_Gave_a_War_and_Nobody_Came)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You might want to check out "lyric games", they're built around pretty much exactly that premise. Here's a couple links to get you started:

https://itch.io/c/741014/lyric-games
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/feature/experimental-lyric-rpgs

I've also seen some writing from Yoko Ono connected to the idea of very very rules-light lyric games, c.f. here:

https://twitter.com/proton_31/status/1137748912691789824

I also really like the idea in the original post of a rules-heavy/crunchy game that's too unwieldy for play, but is something for people to talk about and dig into, maybe make characters with or discuss the interactions of the mechanics.