Sugliin Hideous Blow

[Gorthawar]

Hi all,

Following a conversation about E6 with one of my players I was revisiting a build I had toyed with for the E6 Warlock competition (Never have time to submit them but always enjoy the challenge). And the question that I came across was whether I could do standard action hideous blow with a Sugliin?

What do you think? Does the wording of hideous blow: "As a standard action you can make a melee attack..." override the text in the description in the Sugliin that: " This weapon is so unwieldy and heavy that making a single attack with it is a full round action."?

Thanks for the advice.

[icefractal]

By the RAW, it's a standard action AFAICT. Lengthening the time to make an attack action with the weapon doesn't automatically increase the time of other abilities that involve attacking. Conversely, HB would still be a standard action if you had some 3PP weapon that could attack as a move-action.

RAI, maybe it shouldn't be, hard to say for sure.

In terms of actual balance, Hideous Blow is a somewhat weak invocation and Sugliin is a somewhat weak weapon, so combining them advantageously is fine, IMO.

[Darg]

If you think that a Sugliin can make AoOs, then yes it works. If you think it can't, then no it doesn't. RAW says yes, logic says no. RAW says you can take infinite free actions, logic says the DM is going to throw a book at you. That said, the existence of the Sugliin Mastery feat means it's not impossible to make standard action attacks at all (and also implies that you can indeed make AoOs even without the feat).

[Elves]

No RAW to this as its not clear which is more "specific over general" than the other.

Consider that the same logic would apply to TOB strikes however.

So since all things are even we should prefer the reasonable reading.

[holbita]

Hum...

How would this work with a crescent knife?

This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack. If you hit, the target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). This damage is in addition to any weapon damage that you deal with your attack, although you need not deal damage with this attack to trigger the eldritch blast effect.

That would also be an interesting question.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hum...

How would this work with a crescent knife?

This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack. If you hit, the target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). This damage is in addition to any weapon damage that you deal with your attack, although you need not deal damage with this attack to trigger the eldritch blast effect.

That would also be an interesting question.

I'd say you attack twice, but the eldritch blast only applies to the first hit. Like standard action multi-attacks and precision damage, or spell-storing items. Once the invocation is discharged, it doesn't work for the next hit, even if it does hit.

[holbita]

But the thing is... eldritch blast is not precision damage, and in examples like smite on a manyshot attack... smite damage is applied to all the arrows... so we have some room to wiggle here?

But RAW probably would be that crescent knife only gets one attack when using hideous blow. But if ruled as it does get 2 I would be willing to let eldritch blast to apply twice.

[Gorthawar]

By the RAW, it's a standard action AFAICT. Lengthening the time to make an attack action with the weapon doesn't automatically increase the time of other abilities that involve attacking. Conversely, HB would still be a standard action if you had some 3PP weapon that could attack as a move-action.

RAI, maybe it shouldn't be, hard to say for sure.

In terms of actual balance, Hideous Blow is a somewhat weak invocation and Sugliin is a somewhat weak weapon, so combining them advantageously is fine, IMO.

I was thinking along these lines and especially agree that there should not really a balance issue with the combination.


If you think that a Sugliin can make AoOs, then yes it works. If you think it can't, then no it doesn't. RAW says yes, logic says no. RAW says you can take infinite free actions, logic says the DM is going to throw a book at you. That said, the existence of the Sugliin Mastery feat means it's not impossible to make standard action attacks at all (and also implies that you can indeed make AoOs even without the feat).

Had not even thought about AoOs but that is a very good point indeed. And you're obviously right that the final word is with the DM.


No RAW to this as its not clear which is more "specific over general" than the other.

Consider that the same logic would apply to TOB strikes however.

So since all things are even we should prefer the reasonable reading.

Yes absolutely strikes have very much similar mechanics. As does the duskblade channel spell ability and I agree that they all fall under the same logic.

I'm not sure what you would count as the reasonable reading though. As I mentioned before I would not see an issue with using any of them as a standard action. After all you can do the same with a greatsword and do not have that much less damage without breaking any balance in particular.

What would be the alternative anyways? Do hideous blows, strikes and channels as full round actions? Or prohibit any of these when wielding a Sugliin?


Hum...

How would this work with a crescent knife?

This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack. If you hit, the target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). This damage is in addition to any weapon damage that you deal with your attack, although you need not deal damage with this attack to trigger the eldritch blast effect.

That would also be an interesting question.

I would rule that the hideous blow / strike / channel spell would be a standard attack with 2 riders. First the ability and then a second attack that doesn't get the ability again. Otherwise a full attack channel by a duskblade would become crazy good.

Thanks for all the replies!

Edit:
I don't know how snap-kick works with a full attack channel but with all the standard action abilities I'd say again that it is an additional rider and doesn't get to trigger the hideous blow / strike / channel again.

[Darg]

Edit:
I don't know how snap-kick works with a full attack channel but with all the standard action abilities I'd say again that it is an additional rider and doesn't get to trigger the hideous blow / strike / channel again.

I'd say it doesn't really matter if it did. I personally like the idea that you can cleave with it for example. By RAW you can turn the Hideous Blow into a touch attack by making a trip attack instead and with the improved trip feat deliver the EB damage twice. "hit" is just a successful attack roll.

[ciopo]

But the thing is... eldritch blast is not precision damage, and in examples like smite on a manyshot attack... smite damage is applied to all the arrows... so we have some room to wiggle here?

But RAW probably would be that crescent knife only gets one attack when using hideous blow. But if ruled as it does get 2 I would be willing to let eldritch blast to apply twice.

Smite specifically says melee attack, what is letting you use it with manyshot?

[Gruftzwerg]

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack.

We are comparing:

a) (you) make a single melee attack

with

b) (you) make a single melee attack with a Sugliin

You may now guess what is more "general" and what is more "specific".

I'll give you 3 tries ^^

You guessed (hopefully) right: (b) is more specific then (a)

Which means that after using Hideous Blow (standard action) you can't pay the action cost to attack with a Sugliin in the same round. You would have to wait for the next round or for an AoO.

(edit: unless you have the Sugliin Mastery feat. that changes everything)

[ShurikVch]

Smite specifically says melee attack, what is letting you use it with manyshot?
Elf Paladin substitution levels (Races of the Wild)
Ranged Smite Evil feat (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Smiting Arrow ACF (Dragon #349)