Warforged Eldritch knight with pal dip?

[Spacehamster]

So as two fighting styles from a 6 fighter 2 pal, you take dueling and defense, by level 8 let’s assume +1 weapons and armor + shield, feats: polearm master and +2 STR, fight with spear & shield.

Defense with this: 24 without any spells, 26 with shield of faith and 31 with burning a shield spell.
Offense: 2 attacks @ 1d6 + 7 & potential smite + bonus attack 1d4 + 7 and access to action surge if needed.

Later take max STR & fey touched feat for access to hunters mark as an alternative to shield of faith for when offence is more needed.

Thoughts on viability?

Edit: probably slightly better to go with v human or custom lineage and have 1 less AC but a feat right away.

[Leon]

Thoughts on viability?

Edit: probably slightly better to go with v human or custom lineage and have 1 less AC but a feat right away.

5e, you have to work hard to make a set of choices non viable and its always better to go with what bests suits your idea/concept of the character than what's "better mechanically"

[MrStabby]

So as two fighting styles from a 6 fighter 2 pal, you take dueling and defense, by level 8 let’s assume +1 weapons and armor + shield, feats: polearm master and +2 STR, fight with spear & shield.

Defense with this: 24 without any spells, 26 with shield of faith and 31 with burning a shield spell.
Offense: 2 attacks @ 1d6 + 7 & potential smite + bonus attack 1d4 + 7 and access to action surge if needed.

Later take max STR & fey touched feat for access to hunters mark as an alternative to shield of faith for when offence is more needed.

Thoughts on viability?

Edit: probably slightly better to go with v human or custom lineage and have 1 less AC but a feat right away.

Hmm. You lose out on a feat and your level 7 EK ability by going Paladin. Furthermore you need Str and Cha 13 for the multiclass which might come at a cost if otherwise you wouldn't be having these stats high. In return you get some lay on hands (a little hands goes a long way when it comes to stabilisation of the fallen and unpoisoning people). A couple of spell slots and the ability to smite with them, and the fighting style. Its not a terrible trade, but its not great either. It does get better if your fighter would be wanting to be charismatic anyway. To aid comparison, bear in mind that with the fighter levels you lost you could get the feat that gets you the second fighting style anyway.

You could also go ranger... which is pretty weak unless your DM allows the ACFs on Tasha's guide. If they do then that same two level dip can get you your casting keying off wisdom (probably a better stat than charisma), favoured foe for some extra damage (and scaling off prof bonus will work nicely for you), deft explorer (and expertise gives you a great role for out of combat - as well as potentially in combat). And if you were to level up, some of the subclass ranger abilities are very good.

Paladin is normlly the stronger class, but being multiclassed like this... I am not sure. Archery is a great fighting style. Dex is a great Stat. Leaning more into ranger has a lot to offer as well. And things like heavy armour proficiency you alreay get from fighter.

[Chaos Jackal]

It's not exactly something that offers you much. Your slots won't be more due to how multiclassing spellcasters work, nor higher level so your smiting will be rather limited with your reaction spells on top, you'll need 13 Cha which isn't exactly useful to you otherwise and will stretch you further if you want to do anything with EK spells that need Int (though admittedly that's far from necessary) and you're not getting any new proficiencies or whatever. And if it's the second fighting style that you want, well... why not just go straight EK, pick your off-school spell and take the style through the Fighting Initiate feat at lv8 (a feat you're not getting if you go paladin 2)?

Like, it's not terrible... smiting is still nice to have as an option and you might roll good stats and not really bother about the MADness, but it's far from an ideal path to take.

[Spacehamster]

It's not exactly something that offers you much. Your slots won't be more due to how multiclassing spellcasters work, nor higher level so your smiting will be rather limited with your reaction spells on top, you'll need 13 Cha which isn't exactly useful to you otherwise and will stretch you further if you want to do anything with EK spells that need Int (though admittedly that's far from necessary) and you're not getting any new proficiencies or whatever. And if it's the second fighting style that you want, well... why not just go straight EK, pick your off-school spell and take the style through the Fighting Initiate feat at lv8 (a feat you're not getting if you go paladin 2)?

Like, it's not terrible... smiting is still nice to have as an option and you might roll good stats and not really bother about the MADness, but it's far from an ideal path to take.

Everyone sees everything so different than me, I see it as superior to both pure classes. xD more attacks than the Paladin, higher damage than the EK, higher maximum AC than any of the pure options as well at the cost of a slightly delayed 3rd ASI and having to put a few points into CHA which is no biggie since fighter is SAD. :)

[arnin77]

How are you casting shield without warcaster?

[Chaos Jackal]

Everyone sees everything so different than me, I see it as superior to both pure classes. xD more attacks than the Paladin, higher damage than the EK, higher maximum AC than any of the pure options as well at the cost of a slightly delayed 3rd ASI and having to put a few points into CHA which is no biggie since fighter is SAD. :)

What I gave you was for the immediate lv8. And as I said it's not terrible, but you're still losing things and not really coming out on top. Breaking even, perhaps. Let's take it to 20. We're gonna use pure EK for the comparison because, given your points, what pure paladin offers isn't of particular interest to you.

Sure, you'll have more attacks than the paladin, but they'll be delayed because you're dipping (and you'd better take the two paladin levels after lv5, else you're delaying the first Extra Attack power spike too). Higher damage is relative - a Dex EK (which isn't your case, but that's arguably another argument against as Dex is a better stat to focus on) has higher initiative, which is an indirect DPR boost, can utilize shadow blade extremely well and gets it earlier, gets additional attacks faster than you so they always outdamage you in those levels and can more easily rely on spells like haste and fireball for single and area damage as they aren't spending their limited slots on smiting; most of those are true for Str EKs as well. You'll probably have better nova, but at the cost of weaker consistent damage. And you're never getting the last Extra Attack.

Higher maximum AC is simply not true, as you can just as easily take a feat if you want the Defense style, a feat that you're ultimately missing out on because of your two-level dip, so that part breaks even and not smiting means more shield and, if you take it, silvery barbs, which means that, on average, your AC will be higher. So that's a part where you're clearly losing out.

EK isn't necessarily SAD, but let's assume that you don't care about utilizing Int; "dumb" EKs are good too. Your SADness is still relative, as you need a decent Con score given that you're someone who's both in melee and might have concentration and you can't really afford a low Wis score either as it is one of the most common saves, if not the most common, with a lot of common effects tied to it being debilitating for you. And you're even delaying Indomitable, which might not be particularly good but at least is an extra layer of defense. You can dump Dex alongside Int, sure... but that comes with its own share of problems, like pretty much screwing over anything stealthy that your party wants to do in addition to low initiative exposing you to everything the enemy has available before you get to actually try and kill them. Meanwhile, your Cha at 13 serves pretty much no purpose.

And as showcased above, you're not just delaying your ASI, you're also delaying your Extra Attacks and your spells known while making a character that is stronger in nova, but less consistent and well-rounded.

So, I'll repeat. It's not terrible, smiting is a nice option to have and you might roll well for stats, or you might not care about Int at all, but you are losing out on other fronts. You can also achieve a lot of the things you want by staying straight-classed and have better consistency to boot.

It's playable. Given your priorities, it won't let you down. But it's not just superior to going straight-class.

[Damon_Tor]

How are you casting shield without warcaster?

Carry more than one spear. Drop the spear if you need to cast. Draw a new one at the start of your turn.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Seems like a bad idea to me.
Paladin dip gives you Smites that you can't use as you don't have enough slots. In fact it actually makes your spell progression slower in EK as you now have to round down instead of up.
And you're down 2 levels in every goodie you're going to get as an EK.
It doesn't look awful at 6/2 because the leveling penalty you've given yourself doesn't apply every 3rd level. Also War Magic is iffy and dependent on fighting style, so if you don't value that much the only thing you're down on is 1 feat.

[Arkhios]

Seems like a bad idea to me.
Paladin dip gives you Smites that you can't use as you don't have enough slots. In fact it actually makes your spell progression slower in EK as you now have to round down instead of up.
And you're down 2 levels in every goodie you're going to get as an EK.
It doesn't look awful at 6/2 because the leveling penalty you've given yourself doesn't apply every 3rd level. Also War Magic is iffy and dependent on fighting style, so if you don't value that much the only thing you're down on is 1 feat.

Not enough slots? LOL

Eldritch Knight 6/Paladin 2 counts as a 3rd level spellcaster, with 4 × 1st-level spell slots, and 2 × 2nd-level spell slots. It's the spells known you're missing at this point.

Compared to a Paladin 8, who has 4 × 1st-level spell slots, and 3 × 2nd-level spell slots, the difference is very small. Negligible, I'd say.

In the long run, assuming EK 18/Pal 2, you're a 7th level spellcaster at that point, the same as you would be as a pure EK, with 4 × 1st-level spell slots, 3 × 2nd-level spell slots, 3 × 3rd-level spell slots, and 1 × 4th-level spell slot. You won't have 4th level spells known, but I'm assuming that's not the goal anyway.

You have the full range of Divine Smite potential at your disposal (because DS caps at 4th level spell slots), with only 2 slots less from the maximum number of slots of that level.

Case in point, you have enough spell slots, just not as many as a Paladin 20 would have (then again, you're only 3 spellcaster levels behind).

Besides, going Nova is nice on paper but NEVER advisable in play.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Not enough slots? LOL

Eldritch Knight 6/Paladin 2 counts as a 3rd level spellcaster, with 4 × 1st-level spell slots, and 2 × 2nd-level spell slots. It's the spells known you're missing at this point.

Compared to a Paladin 8, who has 4 × 1st-level spell slots, and 3 × 2nd-level spell slots, the difference is very small. Negligible, I'd say.

In the long run, assuming EK 18/Pal 2, you're a 7th level spellcaster at that point, the same as you would be as a pure EK, with 4 × 1st-level spell slots, 3 × 2nd-level spell slots, 3 × 3rd-level spell slots, and 1 × 4th-level spell slot. You won't have 4th level spells known, but I'm assuming that's not the goal anyway.

You have the full range of Divine Smite potential at your disposal (because DS caps at 4th level spell slots), with only 2 slots less from the maximum number of slots of that level.

Case in point, you have enough spell slots, just not as many as a Paladin 20 would have (then again, you're only 3 spellcaster levels behind).

Besides, going Nova is nice on paper but NEVER advisable in play.

As I pointed out in my post, at this level it doesn't actually look that bad... but at 7/2 and 8/2 you're still a third level caster with those same 6 slots. You don't get 3rd level slots (not spells) until 14th level (12/2) due to the rounding problem you've created for yourself. You get to cast your actual 3rd level spell at 15th level.
Compared to a full Paly who gets 9 slots, including 2 * 3rd level spells at 9th level that's terrible.
It's less worse when compared to a full EK but I'm still failing to see the benefit.

[Arkhios]

As I pointed out in my post, at this level it doesn't actually look that bad... but at 7/2 and 8/2 you're still a third level caster with those same 6 slots. You don't get 3rd level slots (not spells) until 14th level (12/2) due to the rounding problem you've created for yourself. You get to cast your actual 3rd level spell at 15th level.
Compared to a full Paly who gets 9 slots, including 2 * 3rd level spells at 9th level that's terrible.
My argument was only about the notion of "not having enough spell slots" which is, in my honest opinion, not true. You have enough. Just not as many as a full or half-caster would have at that level. If that wasn't enough, then even the pure paladin wouldn't have "enough" slots. Then again, when will it be enough? For example, for someone who comes from 3.X edition (or Pathfinder 1e), even the 5e full caster progression isn't "enough", relatively speaking.


It's less worse when compared to a full EK but I'm still failing to see the benefit.
Then you might as well be asking what's the benefit of playing a full EK. It all falls down to what's important to you. Just accept it that not everyone value the same things as you do.

[stoutstien]

mechanically fighter and paladin don't mesh that well IMO. One leverages multiple attacks and on hit damage bonuses where the other uses opportunity based spikes on single attacks and high defensive focus to bide their time.

**Unpopular opinion. Even with the automatic damage and action free nature of divine smite the value it provides per slot is low compared to actual spells unless opportunity, information, and RNG line up.**

[Mastikator]

mechanically fighter and paladin don't mesh that well IMO. One leverages multiple attacks and on hit damage bonuses where the other uses opportunity based spikes on single attacks and high defensive focus to bide their time.

**Unpopular opinion. Even with the automatic damage and action free nature of divine smite the value it provides per slot is low compared to actual spells unless opportunity, information, and RNG line up.**

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there buddy. I think action surge and divine smite meshes spectacularly well when your goal is super nova. However I think battlemaster or samurai might be a better option than eldritch knight

[stoutstien]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there buddy. I think action surge and divine smite meshes spectacularly well when your goal is super nova. However I think battlemaster or samurai might be a better option than eldritch knight

It's ok. Maybe once or twice every hundred encounters all the stars line up and it actually plays out the way it does on paper but for the other 98 the straight fighter or paladin are actually going to have better nova at most level comparisons.

**The largest hang up is great weapon master. Even though smite is an on hit writer most of the time players are mentally investing that resource prior to the attack roll (such as going for a supernova turn) unless it is a critical and the potential for over kill isn't so great to cancel out the difference. This means that those who are relying on smite primarily are not going to want to lower their attack chance where those relying on great weapon master don't really care about their base damage as much because it's all about volume of attacks. This means that those are trying to combine the two the AC threshold in which you break even, not including the resource expenditure that you are making with smite and action surge, is relatively low.**