Versatile Spellcaster

[tepes]

so my question(s) is:

1. in a multiclass build could you use spell slots from one class to cast "spells known" from another class?

2. (assuming question one is true) does it matter if the slots are arcane or divine?

example: a sorcerer 4/cleric4/mystic theurge 2 wants to cast cure light wounds, but she has already used all of her cleric spell slots for the day, could she then use versatile spellcaster to use two of her remaining sorcerer slots to cast cure light wounds?

sources for any rulings aren't mandatory, but would be much appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

[Rebel7284]

This definitely works. Might be unintended, but 100% RAW.

The real debate is whether or not you can (ab)use Versatile Spellcaster to cast prepared spells since wizards know spells in their spellbook or something like that. That second one is on shaky ground IMO. :smallsmile:

edit: I might have mid-read the original post or maybe it was edited. It does seem like you are asking about the second case, in which case, there is no agreement.

[Anthrowhale]

The RC says no to (1) in general.

There is a fair case that the Hathran's Universal Spirit Magic allows this and does not care about divine vs. arcane.

[Biggus]

I don't think there have been any official rulings on this. RAW there's nothing to stop you doing so as far as I know, but I strongly suspect RAI is that you use slots from the same class. I think you're probably going to have to ask your DM.

Edit:


The RC says no to (1) in general.


Where does it say that?

[tepes]

The RC says no to (1) in general.

There is a fair case that the Hathran's Universal Spirit Magic allows this and does not care about divine vs. arcane.

could I get a quote? or a PG. number?:smallconfused:

[Anthrowhale]

could I get a quote? or a PG. number?:smallconfused:

It's on page 139.


A multiclass spellcaster can't cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.

[Particle_Man]

If your DM would allow Pathfinder's Mystic Theurge I think it has a class ability to sub one spell slot for a spell one level lower from the "other side". I think the spell has to have been prepared that day on the "other side" if the slot you are using is from a "spontaneous side". So a cleric/sorcerer/MT would have to actually prepared clw as a first level spell at least once that day, but if it had been prepared that day, then whether it is cast or not, a sorcerer 2nd level slot could be used to cast CLW.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/mystic-theurge/

[tepes]

It's on page 139.

having just read it, it seems that particular section is (as is most of the book, honestly) just a further in-depth rewording of the core rules, particularly about multiclassing and how separate spell lists work on one character in general(given that someone completely new to the rules might ask whether multiple spellcasting abilities would "merge" when multiclassing as the PhB doesn't do the best to make that explicit:smalltongue:). but we are talking about a rather vague edge case here. though I can certainly understand the logic in seeing it as a general rule of thumb to be applied where no special exemption is outright stated. :smallsmile:

[Jay R]

As a DM, I would not allow it. Two 2nd level arcane slots can house a 3rd level arcane spell, or two 2nd level divine slots can house a 3rd level divine spell, but in general, arcane spells don't go in divine slots and vice versa.

Also, spontaneous slots can't be used to cast spells from the wizard side and vice versa.

In your example, remember that that cure light wounds spell comes from her god, who doesn't put things in arcane slots. She has used up her call on the god for spells.

There are some feats that allow some kinds of switching, and if a player came up with such a possibility, paying for it with a feat, I would have to re-visit it. But in general, wizard slots hold wizard spells, cleric slots hold cleric spells, etc.

[RandomPeasant]

I think by strict RAW the RC text would not stop you from doing whatever weird stuff you wanted to do with Versatile Spellcaster. The feat never says anything about the spells or the slots needing to be from the same class. It says you need "two spell slots of the same level" and then it lets you cast "a spell you know that is one level higher". If you happened to be a Sorcerer 6/Beguiler 6/Favored Soul 6, you could cash in two Sorcerer 2nd level slots to cast a glibness or a Favored Soul 2nd level slot and a Beguiler 2nd level slot or whatever way you wanted to move things around.

Honestly, I'd probably allow it in a normal game (though I'd be somewhat cautious in Gestalt), because if you have enough slots to actually do much of anything with it the best case is that you are some sort of Theurge build with a spontaneous caster on one side (I would not allow e.g. Spontaneous Divination to qualify for the feat), and that character is not at all worrying from a power level perspective. If you built a Sorcerer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge (let alone a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge), you deserve whatever help you can get.

[Darg]

Considering the only definition applies to the PHB arcane casters and other sources only mention certain spontaneous divine casters as having known spells, prep divine casters don't "know" their spells. Having access to spells on your spell list =/= known spells.

[Particle_Man]

I think by strict RAW the RC text would not stop you from doing whatever weird stuff you wanted to do with Versatile Spellcaster. The feat never says anything about the spells or the slots needing to be from the same class. It says you need "two spell slots of the same level" and then it lets you cast "a spell you know that is one level higher". If you happened to be a Sorcerer 6/Beguiler 6/Favored Soul 6, you could cash in two Sorcerer 2nd level slots to cast a glibness or a Favored Soul 2nd level slot and a Beguiler 2nd level slot or whatever way you wanted to move things around.

Honestly, I'd probably allow it in a normal game (though I'd be somewhat cautious in Gestalt), because if you have enough slots to actually do much of anything with it the best case is that you are some sort of Theurge build with a spontaneous caster on one side (I would not allow e.g. Spontaneous Divination to qualify for the feat), and that character is not at all worrying from a power level perspective. If you built a Sorcerer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge (let alone a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge), you deserve whatever help you can get.

I agree. The feat is far more powerful in the hands of a single classed sorcerer who can now basically Nova their highest level spells I combat. The mystic theurge with the feat is . . . saving some gold that would have been spent on a wand.

[Gruftzwerg]

SRD on multiclass characters:

Spells

The character gains spells from all of his or her spellcasting classes and keeps a separate spell list for each class. If a spell’s effect is based on the class level of the caster, the player must keep track of which class’s spell list the character is casting the spell from.

The general rules for multiclass characters separate your spell lists (including the ability to cast em) and Versatile Spellcaster does nothing to bypass that limitation. It would need to make an explicit call out to trump the general rules and that is not the case here.

[Troacctid]

There's nothing about Versatile Spellcaster that would specifically allow you to cast spells from one class using slots from another, and the general rule prohibits it. So it doesn't work.

[Jay R]

The rules for Versatile Spellcaster show no indication that the author even considered the question. That means it requires a DM judgment call.

That's the essence of the DM's duty to make judgment calls -- considering things that weren't considered when different books were written at different times by different authors.

Of course, when something is decided by a DM judgment call , one consequence is that different DMs will come up with different answers, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But in my game, when a versatile spellcaster puts together two 2nd-level sorcerer slots, it will create a third-level sorcerer slot.

If a feat allowed you to combine two elementals to make one bigger one, you would not be able to combine two fire elementals to make a larger water elemental. Fire plus fire equals bigger fire, not water. It's the same principle -- sorcerer slot plus sorcerer slot equals bigger sorcerer slot.

Note that my decision had nothing to do with how powerful the ability would be, only what seems to make sense within the created world. If another DM (as RandomPeasant suggested) decided that it wasn't too powerful, and so decided to allow it on that basis, I have no problem with that.

Different worlds are different.

[bean illus]

I'm thinkin "no", VS doesn't work like that.

Btw, imo, favored soul - sorcerer - mystic theurge isn't as awful with early entry shenanigans. Entering MT at 4th is still behind sorcerer by one level, but the Heighten Spell helps a bit and your utility is much greater. The class combo does mitigate losses from the Battle Sorcerer ACF, to cast in light armor.
Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion extend Mystic Theurge.

Of course being required to enter at 6th is weak.

[Rebel7284]

I'm thinkin "no", VS doesn't work like that.

Btw, imo, favored soul - sorcerer - mystic theurge isn't as awful with early entry shenanigans. Entering MT at 4th is still behind sorcerer by one level, but the Heighten Spell helps a bit and your utility is much greater. The class combo does mitigate losses from the Battle Sorcerer ACF, to cast in light armor.
Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion extend Mystic Theurge.

Of course being required to enter at 6th is weak.

On this tangent, I do love the Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/X1/Mystic Theurge 10 builds with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell for early entry.

Some options
1. High power variant: X1 is an animal HD from acquired lycanthropy. Cure lycanthropy once you self-qualify for a very solid Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge build! Cheese kinda balanced out by the fact that it's still a full spell level behind a wizard in exchange for more spells.
2. Bamboo Spirit Folk: with a permissive DM enter Arcane Heirophant after Mystic Theurge.
3. X1 is cleric dip for some ability to Divine Metamagic
4. As a last resort, you can also dip Wildrunner after Mystic Theurge for more Arcane Heirophant entry abilities in case Bamboo Spirit Folk is not allowed and Legacy Champion advancement doesn't work.

[St Fan]

The preceding posters have explained why Versatile Spellcaster wouldn't allow casting spells across spell lists, and I have nothing to add to that, I believe they are correct.

Please note, though, there is one little trick with Versatile Spellcaster that is considered RAW-compliant, and can be used by an Ultimate Magus:



Expanded Spell Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level, you can select one 0th- or 1st-level arcane spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level. (In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.)

You can add another spell from your spellbook to your list of spells known every two levels thereafter. At 4th level, this can be a 0th-, 1st-, or 2nd-level spell. At 6th level, this can be any spell of 3rd level or lower. At 8th level, this spell can be of 4th level or lower, and at 10th level it can be of 5th level or lower.


With this feature, an Ultimate Magus can "know" a spell of higher level than he can cast on the spontaneous casting class side. If you combine this with the Versatile Spellcaster feat, the Ultimate Magus can then cast said spell by spending two spells of one level lower (probably the highest spell level the character can cast normally), as long as he has a sufficient caster level (which Arcane Spell Power, another Ultimate Magus feature, certainly provides).

[Crake]

I personally allow it, because generally I find that a multiclassed spellcaster isn't gonna be particularly powerful, and 2 slots for 1 of a higher level slot generally is a bad tradeoff to begin with, so at the end of the day, I don't think it's particularly game breaking, it just allows for more flexibility for casters.

[Particle_Man]

Is it a bad tradeoff to trade 2 spells for 1 spell a level higher? I would have thought it lets one use more of one's best level of spells (and it is not like a MT is going to run out of spells for the day).

And at higher character levels there would presumably be lower level spell slots are are simply never used anymore as they are not worth the action to cast them. Presumably giving up 2 of those for 1 of a spell at a level that is still useful would be a good trade.

[Troacctid]

Is it a bad tradeoff to trade 2 spells for 1 spell a level higher? I would have thought it lets one use more of one's best level of spells (and it is not like a MT is going to run out of spells for the day).

And at higher character levels there would presumably be lower level spell slots are are simply never used anymore as they are not worth the action to cast them. Presumably giving up 2 of those for 1 of a spell at a level that is still useful would be a good trade.
It's something you would probably do reasonably often if you got it for free, but I personally find it isn't often worth the opportunity cost of a feat slot. At least not for my playstyle.

[Crake]

Is it a bad tradeoff to trade 2 spells for 1 spell a level higher? I would have thought it lets one use more of one's best level of spells (and it is not like a MT is going to run out of spells for the day).

And at higher character levels there would presumably be lower level spell slots are are simply never used anymore as they are not worth the action to cast them. Presumably giving up 2 of those for 1 of a spell at a level that is still useful would be a good trade.

Generally, I would say the output of two slots of say, 4th level, would add up to be more than the output of a single 5th level spell, yes. Thats not ALWAYS the case, but I think generally it is. That being said, two fourth level spells require two turns, so if you're more interested in nova, its a positive in output per turn, but a loss in output per day.

A dual caster though is also behind in levels, so I think the cost of both levels and extra costs in spell slots is a reasonable tradeoff for the increase in flexibility

[bean illus]

It's something you would probably do reasonably often if you got it for free, but I personally find it isn't often worth the opportunity cost of a feat slot. At least not for my playstyle.

A feat is a very special thing. Yet ...

Though most agree that standard entry is weak, a dual spontaneous caster with early entry is one of the games best utility casters, and gains 14-16+ spell slots of each level.

Playstyle is a thing, as is frontline caster. But even at 6th level, an FS 2/ S 1/ MT 3 has 37 spell slots (as you know). A wizard 6 has 16-20, but can't convert unneeded 0ths/etc, so really much less.
The same theurge has nearly 100 spells at 12th ... ... for 4ish encounters. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten turns FS/S/MT into a candyshop.

I'm not doubting what you can do with a straight wizard. I get it.

[Darg]

I simply make theurge classes able to be qualified for entry at level 5. Early entry cheese is simply cheese and makes the character less fun to gain a way to role play. Losing 2 levels of casting for entry is enough of a burden.

[paladinn]

If you really want to play a "versatile" caster, see if your DM will let you play a "generic" spellcaster from the 3.5 UA. You still choose a casting attribute for spell effects, but you are not limited to any class. You can choose spells from any class, and it basically uses the sorcerer spells/day/known progression. You can also have proficiency in one simple weapon (presumably in addition to wizard weapons) and you get a few bonus feats. I like the flexibility, and it's not crazy like a gestalt.