Polymorph Question

[Yogibear41]

If I am a 10th level Acolyte of the Skin and cast Polymorph, would I keep my +2 to natural armor, Dex, and Con, since they are class abilities? Or would I default to the standard of whatever particular form I polymorphed into?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You should keep all bonuses granted to your ability scores, since polymorph should only affect your base scores and racial bonuses. Any bonuses on top of that (including inherent bonuses) should be kept. I think. It's not really covered in the spell text, but given it replaces your scores but not your bonuses (except racial bonuses, since it replaces your race), that seems sensible to me.

[Gruftzwerg]

The Polymorph spell targets your current (racial) form. It doesn't affect anything from class levels. So if you have any kind of body enhancements from class (e.g. Green Adept Star, Acolyte of the Skin...) they remain unchanged. This can sometimes be a problem since this can make it easier for others to identify you if you should try to disguise your identity with polymoph.

[Hua]

From the Dragon Magazine article series from Skip Williams, All about Polymorph.

You retain all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels.

As noted in Part One, extraordinary special attacks or qualities from class levels are primarily a function of the mind (you acquired them through experience and training), so you can keep right on using them when you're in an assumed form.

So if that +2 NA is from the class levels, you keep it.

[bookkeeping guy]

But would he need a permanency spell to keep the polymorphed form?

[Vaern]

From the Dragon Magazine article series from Skip Williams, All about Polymorph.

You retain all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels.

As noted in Part One, extraordinary special attacks or qualities from class levels are primarily a function of the mind (you acquired them through experience and training), so you can keep right on using them when you're in an assumed form.

So if that +2 NA is from the class levels, you keep it.

It's worth noting here that the natural armor bonus in question is not extraordinary. It is the effect of a supernatural quality, so it would carry over even if it was not derived from class levels.

The only caveat that might prevent you from retraining your bonuses if the rule that special abilities only carry over if the new form has the necessary parts of the body to use those abilities. You may not be able to retain the benefits of your enhanced skin if you assume a form which does not normally have skin. Hopefully avoiding such a scenario shouldn't be too problematic, though.

[Crake]

From the Dragon Magazine article series from Skip Williams, All about Polymorph.

You retain all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels.

As noted in Part One, extraordinary special attacks or qualities from class levels are primarily a function of the mind (you acquired them through experience and training), so you can keep right on using them when you're in an assumed form.

So if that +2 NA is from the class levels, you keep it.

I think part of the issue with Skip's logic there is that there ARE some class abilities that are NOT functions of your mind, they are functions of your body after having been through rigorous trials and harsh conditions.

Take into account the dragon disciple class. The ability boost is Ex, yet it's a function of slowly growing toward gaining the half dragon template, which is a natural ability, not marked as Ex. So in that case, do you keep or lose the half dragon template when you polymorph? If you lose it, since it's natural, does that mean that the capstone is a nerf to polymorph interactions?

I'd say by default that it should be kept as a class feature, but there would be exceptions to the rule depending on if the class feature is a modification of your body in some way, rather than a result of training and experience.

[Darg]

I think part of the issue with Skip's logic there is that there ARE some class abilities that are NOT functions of your mind, they are functions of your body after having been through rigorous trials and harsh conditions.

Take into account the dragon disciple class. The ability boost is Ex, yet it's a function of slowly growing toward gaining the half dragon template, which is a natural ability, not marked as Ex. So in that case, do you keep or lose the half dragon template when you polymorph? If you lose it, since it's natural, does that mean that the capstone is a nerf to polymorph interactions?

I'd say by default that it should be kept as a class feature, but there would be exceptions to the rule depending on if the class feature is a modification of your body in some way, rather than a result of training and experience.

You don't lose the template; you just lose the racial bonuses and features. you still get the class features such as the ability score increases, wings, claws and bite, natural armor, blindsense, immunities, etc. Spellcasting is a natural ability granted through class levels and the wizard doesn't lose that ability. Alter self does not say you lose natural abilities from class levels.

[Crake]

You don't lose the template; you just lose the racial bonuses and features. you still get the class features such as the ability score increases, wings, claws and bite, natural armor, blindsense, immunities, etc. Spellcasting is a natural ability granted through class levels and the wizard doesn't lose that ability. Alter self does not say you lose natural abilities from class levels.

*shrug* I'm not arguing RAW here, im arguing what makes sense by Skip's delineation of what gets lost and what stays, ie: is the ability something mental related that can be applied to any form, or is it a physical change that applies specifically to your current form?

[Darg]

I think the difference is whether something is a physical quality of your form or not. A dragon disciple's abilities are not a physical quality of your form, but rather a quality of training in the class. If we were to delineate in a way that class abilities are removed because they have a physical component, why wouldn't feats like heritage feats be compromised?

[Crake]

I think the difference is whether something is a physical quality of your form or not. A dragon disciple's abilities are not a physical quality of your form, but rather a quality of training in the class. If we were to delineate in a way that class abilities are removed because they have a physical component, why wouldn't feats like heritage feats be compromised?

Depends on what the feat is. The outsider wings feat for planetouched for example, I would rule is lost when polymorphing.