Does this ability make continuing Warlock better than continuing bard?

[Hiro Quester]

I'm playing a multi class half-elf Warlock Bard with elven accuracy. Frontline melee striker, buffer, and party face (though with 8 wisdom and 8 int for impulsive decision-making).

Warlock patron is a Hexblade-like DM Homebrew, based on retribution for a murdered friend (but without the Hex Warrior CHA to attack and damage). I started out as a Hexblade, but DM offered a Homebrew patron that my character would definitely take (even though I, the optimizing player, rankled a little at first)

I have been vacillating between Swords Bard 3/Warlock 17 (for better melee and some low-level spell slots) or Warlock 5/Bard 15 (for better casting, with Eldrich Smite) as the final goal. Currently I'm Bard 1/Warlock 5.

Warlock patron has some useful abilities. In particular, the bond is with a magic rapier (that belonged to the murdered friend) that grants extra d4 damage, ad the ability to teleport to within 5 ft of a creature you have hit with the weapon. Also a vampiric touch type ability that does a d12 +Cha necrotic damage, increasing like a cantrip (2d12+Cha at 5th, etc), and grants temporary HP of half the damage inflicted.

DM has just revealed the 6th level Patron feature to me:


Starting at 6th level, you can absorb a part of a fallen foe's essence as penance for the evil they have done. Whenever you kill a creature with a pact weapon, warlock spell, or feature that deals necrotic damage, or a creature dies while subject to your hex or bestow curse spell, you can regain 1Hit Dice. If you do so, that creature can't be revived by anything short of Divine intervention, a wish spell, or similar means until you die.
Further, you gain the following abilities:
Self-Sacrifice: As an action you can expend a number of Hit Dice equal to the level of your Pact Magic spell slots to regain a Pact Magic spell slot in exchange.
Soul Payment: When you cast a Warlock spell, you can expend a number of Hit Dice to reduce the the total value of the material components of that spell by up to 50gp per Hit Die spent.

One of the main limitations of progressing Warlock, rather than the full caster bard seems to be the limited spell slots.

That's a reason for progressing bard to at least 3, for up to 2nd level utility and buff spells—for absorb elements, hex, faerie fire, mirror image, and misty step— as well as sword flourishes, or maybe even Bard 6 for 3rd level spells, extra attack—freeing up an invocation for repelling blast–and Bardic inspiration that refreshes on a short rest.

It's also the reason I was more tempted to progress bard all the way after warlock 5 (5 for access to desirable spells (Counterspell), as well as three invocations, including Eldrich Smite, and ASI). The full caster with magic secrets of bard seems more the Gish I wanted to play.

However, this "Self Sacrifice" ability to spend hit dice to regain a warlock pact slot (e.g. for an emergency Counterspell, or when you crit on the BBEG and have no pact slots left to Smite with) seems a pretty cool mechanic. And it's one that makes the limited pact slots less of a limitation.

Especially with an ability to regain HD by killing a creature. This gives an incentive to keep killing the minions after you kill their boss (with the possibility for roleplaying a conflicted chaotic good character who risks becoming addicted to this mechanic). It could also be cheesed with a bag of rats, but I would not do that.

It seems to me that this ability might be a really good reason to progress Warlock rather than Bard.

I have never played anything that uses the "spend hit dice" mechanic, though. Has anyone played something with the "spend hit dice" mechanic?

Am I missing something in thinking this makes Warlock more awesome, and potentially worth giving up the bard's full caster progression for?

[RogueJK]

However, this "Self Sacrifice" ability to spend hit dice to regain a warlock pact slot (e.g. for an emergency Counterspell, or when you crit on the BBEG and have no pact slots left to Smite with) seems a pretty cool mechanic. And it's one that makes the limited pact slots less of a limitation.

Note that Self Sacrifice takes an Action. So you won't be able to reflexively burn Hit Dice if you're out of spell slots for an emergency Counterspell or to Smite when you crit. You'd have to plan ahead and use your Action on your turn to recover a spell slot, in preparation for potentially needing it on a later turn.


I have been vacillating between Swords Bard 3/Warlock 17 (for better melee and some low-level spell slots) or Warlock 5/Bard 15 (for better casting, with Eldrich Smite) as the final goal. Currently I'm Bard 1/Warlock 5.

Even if you decide to stick with mostly Warlock, I'd strongly consider going up to Bard 5 for Font of Inspiration. This lets your Bardic Inspiration refresh on a Short Rest, which means you'd be much more free to use your Blade Flourishes, instead of being limited to just 4-5 per day. It also synergizes nicely with your short rest Pact slots.

If you're not going to go to Bard 5, then I'd recommend sticking to just Bard 1, or perhaps Bard 2 for Jack of All Trades. A bare handful of Blade Flourishes a day isn't really worth the delay to your higher level Warlock spellcasting.


or maybe even Bard 6 for 3rd level spells, extra attack—freeing up an invocation for repelling blast–and Bardic inspiration that refreshes on a short rest.

It's also the reason I was more tempted to progress bard all the way after warlock 5 (5 for access to desirable spells (Counterspell), as well as three invocations, including Eldrich Smite, and ASI). The full caster with magic secrets of bard seems more the Gish I wanted to play.

If you decide to stick with mostly Bard, I'd recommend taking Warlock 6 after you hit Bard 6. This not only eventually nabs you the Retributive Soul subclass ability, but also allows you the opportunity to swap out your Thirsting Blade invocation. You can only swap out Invocations upon leveling up as a Warlock. So if you were to stop Warlock progression altogether right now at Warlock 5/Bard 1 and go straight Bard from here, you'd always be stuck with Thirsting Blade taking up one of your invocations, even once you hit Bard 6 and gain redundant Extra Attack that way.


So while either one involves giving up 9th level spells (if you even make it to that high of a level), I'd recommend shooting for either:
Bard 1/Warlock 5 -> Bard 6/Warlock 5 -> Bard 6/Warlock 6 -> Warlock 6/Bard 14
or
Bard 1/Warlock 5 -> Bard 1/Warlock 6 -> Bard 5/Warlock 6 -> Bard 5/Warlock 15

Of these two, I think the Bard-heavy version is better in the short term (Tiers 2 and 3) while the Warlock-heavy version is better in the long run (Tiers 3 and 4). So judge how long you think the campaign will run.

Or, if the campaign is in it for the long haul to Tier 4 and you'd prefer to retain 9th level spellcasting, I'd do Bard 1/Warlock 19 or Bard 2/Warlock 18.

[animorte]

You can still get your 9th level spells by stopping at Bard 3, though it’ll still come later.

If you’re not too worried about that, going to Bard 6 for the subclass could be nice, if thematics and preference allow. You still get the Warlock 14 subclass cap feature.

As all things go, plan your character to have fun and what feels right, since the higher levels aren’t necessarily guaranteed (unless you’ve actually been told otherwise). It’s about the journey.

[Keravath]

Interesting hit dice mechanic but a couple of questions to ask ...

1) How often does your character get the killing blow in the party? This will limit how quickly you can collect hit die. If your character isn't that big a damage dealer or other characters do a lot more, this could be an issue that would interfere with collecting these hit dice.

2) What happens on a long rest. Do you still regain 1/2 your normal hit die? Since the ability specifies regain, you will be limited to just your regular number of hit die which means that you will have to have expended some hit die already to take advantage of the regain feature. Since it costs an action, it is relatively expensive to use in combat assuming most combats last 3-5 rounds so it is likely to not be a great feature for the first fight of a day. Also, if you have a rod of the pact keeper it also allows you to restore one spell slot/day. For odd numbered levels you'll need to kill things to get two uses of it since at level 7 you will need to use 4 hit dice to recover a level. One use only leaves you with 3 - so you won't be able to go back to full spell slots after one fight - you'll need kill something in another fight to get the hit die to use the ability again.

It is an interesting mechanic. I don't think it will be OP and will allow you to recover an extra slot or two over an adventuring day. It might be a good motivator to take warlock 6. It is worded to let you use all of your hit die to restore warlock slots only so at warlock 6/bard 5 you'd have 11 hit die and only need 3/pact slot restored so you would get more use out of it.

3) Sucking up the life force of creatures you kill to power your arcane abilities sounds pretty much straight up evil. It is worded as "penance for the evil they have done" but that is really a panacea. Is doing evil to evil creatures really good? Also, just because creatures oppose your party or their interests doesn't make them evil ... they could be mistaken, misguided, charmed, confused or have any number of other reasons for fighting you besides doing evil things ... so I'd definitely throw the ability on the evil side of things.

[Hiro Quester]

Note that Self Sacrifice takes an Action.….

If you decide to stick with mostly Bard, I'd recommend taking Warlock 6 after you hit Bard 6…..


So while either one involves giving up 9th level spells (if you even make it to that high of a level), I'd recommend shooting for either:
Bard 1/Warlock 5 -> Bard 6/Warlock 5 -> Bard 6/Warlock 6 -> Warlock 6/Bard 14
or
Bard 1/Warlock 5 -> Bard 1/Warlock 6 -> Bard 5/Warlock 6 -> Bard 5/Warlock 15

Of these two, I think the Bard-heavy version is better in the short term (Tiers 2 and 3) while the Warlock-heavy version is better in the long run (Tiers 3 and 4). So judge how long you think the campaign will run.

Or, if the campaign is in it for the long haul to Tier 4 and you'd prefer to retain 9th level spellcasting, I'd do Bard 1/Warlock 19 or Bard 2/Warlock 18.

Yes. My plan has been bard 6/ warlock5, then back to warlock to swap out invocations. , then ether more bard or more warlock.

I’m tempted to pause at bard 3 and see how that feels, though. Maybe progressing warlock from there, still getting to 9th level spells (mystic arcanum) might be worth trying.

But bard 6 for ASI, BI refresh on a short rest, 3rd level spell slots, and thirsting blade being replaced by extra attack, does seem probably worth more bard levels at some point.

We are very likely going all the way to level 20. But still, things (like taking bard to 5) that improve your capabilities and are fun your character’s whole career, just for the chance of using a 9th level spell in the final boss encounter of the whole campaign, seems perhaps not really worth it.

it’s starting to look like a warlock-heavy career could be very fun.

[Hiro Quester]

Interesting hit dice mechanic but a couple of questions to ask ….

1. Often enough. Especially now I can smite. Especially if I also focus on minions. I’m usually going straight for the big bad with a hex first, and then mopping up afterwards.

2. recovering HD the normal way. So it might impair healing on rests. But there’s glory in that kind of sacrifice, and my character is a glory-hound. Plus he has a good mechanic for dealing damage to gain temporary HPS.

It taking an action to recover kind of sucks. I might need to think about this. It might be worth discussing with DM whether it could be a bonus action (like a sorcerer expending sorcery points for spell slots).

3. Yes, it does have some questionable moral assumptions behind it. But those will be fun to roleplay and wrestle with, I think.

[Hiro Quester]

Update: DM agreed that rather than taking an action to use this ability in case you might need another pact slot, it’s more thematic, risky, and fun to role-play, if you can sweat out another pact slot from your hit dice on the spot when needed, and the effort of doing this wears you out so much that it costs your next action.

My character, with 8 Int and 8 Wis, is very impulsive and not at all into planning. So this fits way better.

I was thinking it might be worth being slowed for a round for. But DM said losing your action was enough. That’s fine. This character almost always has a good use for a bonus action. And a couple of reaction spells which I could still use if needed.

This makes it far more dramatic to use the ability. So much that I’m very tempted to make this a warlock-heavy build. Perhaps enough to take the second suggestion from RogueJK, and take warlock 6 next level and then go back to Bard to 5, then warlock to 15.

This is also inclining me to trust the DM’s homebrewed subclass. It’s not quite as OP and SAD as hexblade (I need to pump both Cha and Dex, which limits feats). But it’s fun and promising so far.

[Quietus]

It sounds like you're excited by this ability. That's enough for me, go for it.