Sorcadin vs Fighter/Cleric

[DragonBaneDM]

Hi folks!

I'm starting off in a fresh, Level 1 Domains of Dread game, and I'm having a bit of analysis paralysis on figuring out what kind of divine frontline caster I'd like to play.

The other thing is: I'm trying to be a halfway decent necromancer in later levels. Tall order, I know!

I'm playing a Reborn, and for roleplay reasons I'm either going to start off as a Paladin or Fighter, but I'm thinking more about the second part of the build: going Divine Soul Sorcerer on top of Paladin or Twilight Cleric on top of Fighter. Either way I'll be a hard hitter and have some magic that could either go defensive or offensive as we level up.

The rest of the party is a Human Artificer, a Reborn Barbarian, and a Dhamphir Bard. We'll be doing some gritty rules for long rests, and it's going to be a slow-paced game, focused on roleplay. In a perfect world, I would play the Cleric because we're lacking a Wisdom focused player. However, things like the Ultimate Bladeworks Guide and my old experience as a Paladin 2/Druid 10+ makes me miss my old smite numbers. What do you think fits best? Which build seems more fun?

Oh right! I'm not going Hexblade, or Warlock at all. It's...absolutely perfect and makes me absolutely SAD and it makes no sense for this character. I'm playing a Bard multiclassed Hexblade already. He's a blast, and I want to try something new.

[Unoriginal]

Hi folks!

I'm starting off in a fresh, Level 1 Domains of Dread game, and I'm having a bit of analysis paralysis on figuring out what kind of divine frontline caster I'd like to play.

The other thing is: I'm trying to be a halfway decent necromancer in later levels. Tall order, I know!

I'm playing a Reborn, and for roleplay reasons I'm either going to start off as a Paladin or Fighter, but I'm thinking more about the second part of the build: going Divine Soul Sorcerer on top of Paladin or Twilight Cleric on top of Fighter. Either way I'll be a hard hitter and have some magic that could either go defensive or offensive as we level up.

The rest of the party is a Human Artificer, a Reborn Barbarian, and a Dhamphir Bard. We'll be doing some gritty rules for long rests, and it's going to be a slow-paced game, focused on roleplay. In a perfect world, I would play the Cleric because we're lacking a Wisdom focused player. However, things like the Ultimate Bladeworks Guide and my old experience as a Paladin 2/Druid 10+ makes me miss my old smite numbers. What do you think fits best? Which build seems more fun?

Oh right! I'm not going Hexblade, or Warlock at all. It's...absolutely perfect and makes me absolutely SAD and it makes no sense for this character. I'm playing a Bard multiclassed Hexblade already. He's a blast, and I want to try something new.

A Cleric, especially a multiclassed Cleric, is unlikely to be an halfway decent necromancer at higher level.

Neither is a Sorcadin, for that matter.

Well, I guess it depends what you mean by "necromancer", but by the common definition neither of those roads lead to what you want in the later levels.

[DragonBaneDM]

A Cleric, especially a multiclassed Cleric, is unlikely to be an halfway decent necromancer at higher level.

Neither is a Sorcadin, for that matter.

Well, I guess it depends what you mean by "necromancer", but by the common definition neither of those roads lead to what you want in the later levels.

Honestly, having access to Animate* Undead and Summon Undead looked like enough for me. The Cleric spell list gives me access to those, so that's what I aimed for, but I'll admit I've never set about creating a Necromancer PC before.

I've seen a good couple of guides from cursory sources saying that Cleric can do a pretty bang up job at it, and kinda just figured between Sorcery points and what's looking like a good bit of downtime, if a Divine Soul really wanted to pour known spells and slots into maintaining a squadron of skeletons, they'd manage the same.

I know that one or two levels of Paladin or Fighter really slows down spell and ability progression, but I've been worried that Necromancy Wizard really might be the only valid option for having a few bony bruisers of my own.

[CTurbo]

Oathbreaker Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer. Divine Soul gives you access to all Cleric spells and Oathbreaker has the Control Undead Channel Divinity feature which is pretty cool even though it requires as many Pally levels as you can get to be most effective. Oathbreaker does give you Animate Dead at level 9 also. Unfortunately this combo gives you Con saves OR heavy armor, but not both without a feat.

[Pildion]

Hi folks!

I'm starting off in a fresh, Level 1 Domains of Dread game, and I'm having a bit of analysis paralysis on figuring out what kind of divine frontline caster I'd like to play.

The other thing is: I'm trying to be a halfway decent necromancer in later levels. Tall order, I know!

I'm playing a Reborn, and for roleplay reasons I'm either going to start off as a Paladin or Fighter, but I'm thinking more about the second part of the build: going Divine Soul Sorcerer on top of Paladin or Twilight Cleric on top of Fighter. Either way I'll be a hard hitter and have some magic that could either go defensive or offensive as we level up.

The rest of the party is a Human Artificer, a Reborn Barbarian, and a Dhamphir Bard. We'll be doing some gritty rules for long rests, and it's going to be a slow-paced game, focused on roleplay. In a perfect world, I would play the Cleric because we're lacking a Wisdom focused player. However, things like the Ultimate Bladeworks Guide and my old experience as a Paladin 2/Druid 10+ makes me miss my old smite numbers. What do you think fits best? Which build seems more fun?

Oh right! I'm not going Hexblade, or Warlock at all. It's...absolutely perfect and makes me absolutely SAD and it makes no sense for this character. I'm playing a Bard multiclassed Hexblade already. He's a blast, and I want to try something new.

This might sound a little crazy but have you thought about going 6\14 Gloomstalker Ranger \ Death Cleric? Your could go with medium armor and use Rangers Druidic Warrior to grab Shillelagh. Gloomstalker would allow you to keep up with half spell slots like Soradin while allowing you to go cleric and keep it SAD with WIS using Shillelagh.

[Yakk]

Paladin 6/Lore Bard X (magical secrets at level 12 to get animate undead).
Paladin 2/Bladesinger X (animate undead at 7, extra attack at 8).
Cleric X (clerics make acceptable brawlers)

[da newt]

For your Fighter/Cleric option, what do you want to get out of fighter that straight cleric doesn't offer (with 100% spell and ASI progression)?

If you are looking for Cleric spells + extra melee maybe 2 lvl dip into paladin for smites and then all Cleric is a viable option.

Another good option is straight arcana cleric (#4 here is a good template/guide https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds )

[RogueJK]

In a perfect world, I would play the Cleric because we're lacking a Wisdom focused player. However, things like the Ultimate Bladeworks Guide and my old experience as a Paladin 2/Druid 10+ makes me miss my old smite numbers.

A Death Cleric can "smite" via Channel Divinity: Touch of Death harder over the course of an adventuring day than a Paladin, plus still have all their spell slots available for full Cleric spellcasting to boot.

For example, a Death Cleric 6 is doing 102 extra Touch of Death damage over the course of a 2 short rest day, without expending any spell slots. (17 extra damage, twice per short rest.)

Whereas a Paladin 6 spending all of their spell slots on (non-crit) Divine Smites is only doing an average of 63 extra damage.

Keep in mind that Touch of Death can be applied to any successful melee attack, not just weapon attacks like Divine Smite. So it works with melee spell attacks like Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, and Vampiric Touch (which normally isn't a Cleric spell but Death Clerics get it as a domain spell). And grabbing a cantrip like Booming Blade or Thorn Whip via the Magic Initiate feat could further expand your options for resourceless melee attacks beyond merely swinging a weapon normally.

Granted, Necrotic damage may not be the best option for a Ravenloft campaign, but the Death Cleric's further ability at 6th level to nullify Necrotic resistance helps.



The other thing is: I'm trying to be a halfway decent necromancer in later levels.

Honestly, having access to Animate* Undead and Summon Undead looked like enough for me. The Cleric spell list gives me access to those

Of the two, Summon Undead is the vastly superior spell to have extra undead combat support. The undead minion not only has decent survivability and damage output, but also scales with upcasting to remain relevant.

The problem is, Clerics don't get Summon Undead, and neither do Sorcerers. It's a Wizard and Warlock exclusive.

Whereas Animate Undead is flavorful but not that great. Without the means to buff your base statblock zombies/skeletons (like subclass abilities from Necromancer Wizard or Shepherd Druid), Animate Dead loses combat efficacy past early Tier 2. Your "bony bruisers" from Animate Dead will have either 8 AC/22 HP or 13 AC/13 HP, with minimal attack bonuses and doing just 4-5 damage. Period. Unlike Summon Undead, your Animate Dead zombies/skeletons have no opportunity to scale their AC/HP/attack/damage. They're less than or equal to about a 1st level PC, and won't last long at all in higher level combat, even if you have a bunch of them (AoEs are a thing...)

Even the marginally better undead types from the Cleric's 6th level Create Undead spell are lacking in damage output and survivability for the level of spell slot required.

So neither a Cleric nor a Divine Soul Sorcerer is going to be a decent necromancer past early Tier 2ish. Unfortunately, necromantic minionmancy is pretty lacking in 5E.


If you truly want to focus on being a Smiting Necromancer, and you are willing to deal with the MADness, a multiclass combo of Paladin 2 or Oathbreaker Paladin 7 with Necromancer Wizard X is probably your best bet. But that would require a high INT and STR, a decent CON, and a 13 CHA. And also leaves your party without a dedicated healer or a WIS-focused PC.

(There are less MAD ways to be a solid Smiting Necromancer via several different Warlock/Padlock builds too, but you've already ruled out that route.)


But also, remember the refluffing/reflavoring is a thing. If you just want the flavor of commanding an undead minion - one that's actually going to be combat effective and scale with level - you could do something like a TCOE Beastmaster or Drakewarden Ranger with their companion being stuff like a hulking zombie brute (refluffed Beast of the Land) or a skeletal dragon (refluffed Drake).

[sithlordnergal]

So, you do have a few options for a frontline Necromancer, though funnily enough those options are not found in Cleric. Really they aren't found in Paladin either, though you could make it work. That said, let me give you some advice as a person who adores Paladin/Full Caster builds, enjoys Bards, Druids, and such. Go take a look at the Cleric spell list, and ask yourself "Will you have fun with those spells". Specifically, look at 4th level and higher Cleric spells, because personally, I did not have fun with the Cleric once I got past level 10. You stopped gaining interesting abilities, you stopped getting Domain Spells to round out your spell list, and the only thing the high level Cleric spells are good at are Divination, Healing, and very minor damage. Very little utility to be found outside of Divination, and no really good control spells. So seriously, go look at their high level spell list and ask yourself "Will that spell list be fun to use, or will I dislike that my only good spells are level 3 and lower".


That said, if you were to make a Necromancer, I'd actually go with Paladin 2 / Lore Bard X, or Fighter 2 / War cleric X. You basically want to get Bless and Crusader's Mantle as soon as possible, because those two spells provide a huge buff to your Undead. Bless makes them more accurate, while Crusader's Mantle lets them damage creatures that are Resistant or Immune to non0-magical attacks. Personally, I would go Paladin 2 / Lore Bard X, because you could just go nuts and cast Animate Object on top of having your Undead. First round toss a bag of Ball Bearings on the floor and use your Bonus Action to order skeletons to kill a target, second round cast Animate Object on 10 of the Ball Bearings and use your Bonus Action to command them to kill a target. Boom, instant mini-army.