Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Summoner

[pabelfly]

I'm interested in starting work on a tier list for Pathfinder, in the same way that we have a tier list for 3.5 (link) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!). This link is a collection of discussions about the power and versatility of all the base classes of 3.5 DnD, and it’s quite a useful resource. I think Pathfinder could do with a similar resource as a point of information and discussion.

There has been an informal attempt to do a tier list for Pathfinder, which I've also used as part of the reference to this thread: (link) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?649283-%85-And-What-Is-the-*Deal*-with-Pathfinder-Tiers). But this lacks discussion on the classes and a shared consensus on how scoring works, both of which are as important as the tier number itself.

The current, work-in-progress thread for Pathfinder Tiers version of this thread is here (link) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650140-Why-Each-Class-is-in-its-Tier-Pathfinder-Edition-(Work-in-Progress)). This thread has links to previous tiering threads and short summaries of thread discussions for those who missed them when they were posted. Contributions and votes for older threads are still welcome and your votes still count.

This time, we’ll tier the Chained and Unchained versions of Summoner

For reference, in the informal thread:
Summoner (Chained) is tiered between 1.94 and 2.06
Summoner (Unchained) is tiered at 2.6

So, the questions are: what should each of these be tiered at? And are there any notable archetypes for these classes that deserve separate tiering? I guess a discussion thread is the way to find out.





What are the tiers?

The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system. A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a Bard or Skald. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

Tier four: Here we're in Fighter and Barbarian territory. Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of chained Monk, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.

[Kurald Galain]

Summoner is one of the most infamous classes in the game. It's derided by casual players because it gets a companion creature (the eidolon) that makes most low-to-mid-op martials obsolete; it is notorious among charoppers because it gets a lot of spells at a lower spell level than anyone else, such as Haste as a 2nd-level spell; it's more-or-less a 9-level caster masquerading as a 6/9-caster. And it is disliked by many GMs and organizers because its ability to quickly summon large amounts of monsters every combat (and modify already summoned critters or the eidolon at-need) tends to take up an inordinate amount of time for its turns. Overall, the class is frowned upon; using it gets you immediately branded as "munchkin" in many groups; and it is the only class outright banned in Pathfinder Society organized play. But is it powerful? Oh yes. Not just is it powerful, it is that almost by default, as it's straightforward to build and doesn't really have bad options. Overall, the effect is Tier Two.

Notable archetype: Synthesist, which effectively merges the summoner with its eidolon. It's notorious for upstaging low-op low-level martials even harder than the regular summoner, but overall it's weaker in terms of action economy and does not increase in tier.

Unchained Summoner is the only example of a class that has been rewritten because it was too strong. It still does all of the above, but in a far more reasonable way. Notably, it doesn't get "discounted" spell levels on its spells, making it a straightforward 6/9-caster; and its eidolon no longer upstages other companion characters. An added benefit is that the eidolons have to be built more by theme and flavor, instead of by whatever-gives-the-most-pluses. Effectively, it's the arcane equivalent of the Hunter (divine) and Spiritualist (psychic); and it's exceedingly common to disallow chained summoner and use this one instead. Most archetypes appear to be slightly weaker than the base class, but nothing so bad as to drop it a tier. Tier Three.

[Gnaeus]

I agree completely with Kurald here, including the rankings.

[Thunder999]

Summoner is definitely in tier 2, the spell list is really good, many of the best arcane spells are there, it technically caps at 6th (a downside for DCs, but actually rather nice for metamagic, you can be using a standard rod where others need greater, or even use it with Spell Perfection). It's not even just conjuration, it's got Possession, Simulacrum, Greater Invisibility, Haste etc.
Now a sorcerer does have it beat on spells known and there are good spells it doesn't get, but that amazing casting is on top of some awesome class features:
The Eidolon is the 2nd strongest type of companion (the strongest being a Cohort from Leadership), it's highly customisable and can be a simple murder machine, pouncing around with a bunch of natural attacks, it can be a great sklll monkey (+8 racial to whatever you want), it can have just about any movement type etc.
Oh and if that thing goes down or you don't want it, then enjoy Standard Action, 1 minute/level Summon Monster X (where X is the highest level version a prepared full caster could be using).
Just 2.0 for now, though that's partly because there's only the sorcerer to really compare to so far.

Unchained Summoner has a weaker, less flexible Eidolon and a much smaller and less varied spell list. The eidolon is still a solid beatstick, the spell list still includes many excellent control and buff spells and you still have summon monster though.
Tier 3.

Master summoner is the archetype worth discussing, you get a weaker Eidolon (a common tactic I've seen is to go skill monkey/scout with it) but get more uses of Summon Monster per day, free augment summoning and can have multiple summon SLAs active at once.
I don't think it's necessarily an improvement to normal summoner, but the unchained Eidolon and spell list are both a fair bit weaker, so focusing on the untouched SLA is appealing. Could it bump unchained to tier 2?
There's not many problems that throwing long duration summons at doesn't help with.

[Rynjin]

I would say regular Summoner is mid-low tier 2, something like a 2.3. While it does have a lot of advantages it does lack a little in flexibility (being a spontaneous caster) and is unsuitable for certain caster types as its DCs are still kneecapped by having lower spell levels across the board.

Where it really shines is in action economy, being able to still buff the party and full attack at the same time, for example.

The Master Summoner, meanwhile, is the one that slips into proper Tier 2, being on par in most respects with a Sorcerer IMO. Casting Summon Monster practically at-will, at the same spell level progression as a Wizard, as a Standard instead of a Full Round, without the base Summoner's limitation of only having one instance active at a time?

Yeah, pretty busted. Master Summoner has the distinction of being the only character option I have UNIVERSALLY seen banned. Every single play by post I've joined and live table I've sat at has banned the Master Summoner, with zero exceptions.

Unchained Summoner is garbage by comparison, and not entirely because of power nerfs. It's probably still a T3 but it's just so rigid and limiting.

[Kurald Galain]

Master summoner is the archetype worth discussing, you get a weaker Eidolon (a common tactic I've seen is to go skill monkey/scout with it) but get more uses of Summon Monster per day, free augment summoning and can have multiple summon SLAs active at once.
I don't think it's necessarily an improvement to normal summoner, but the unchained Eidolon and spell list are both a fair bit weaker, so focusing on the untouched SLA is appealing. Could it bump unchained to tier 2?
Interesting point, but the u-summoner has its own archetypes and cannot take those from its base class. Unchained master summoner is not a valid combination.

[Ramza00]

A Summoner which is 8th level has 5/4/3 spells known, an eidolon, and cha plus 3 times a day a Summon Monster level 4.

A Sorcerer which is 8th level has 5/3/2/1 spells known, 3 bloodline spells, and 2/2/1 extra spells known via a Favored Class Benefit.

If a Sorcerer is a Tier 2, than a regular Summoner is also Tier 2 just built differently with a different chassis for they have a similar amount of versatility.

Same logic with an Unchained Summoner vs a Summoner even if UC Summoner is a little weaker in the power ceiling of the class, the raw chassis is still strong enough to be Tier 2. Perhaps you can say 2.5 if one must assign decimals, but on action economy alone it is not a tier 3.

[Rynjin]

A Summoner which is 8th level has 5/4/3 spells known, an eidolon, and cha plus 3 times a day a Summon Monster level 4.

A Sorcerer which is 8th level has 5/3/2/1 spells known, 3 bloodline spells, and 2/2/1 extra spells known via a Favored Class Benefit.

If a Sorcerer is a Tier 2, than a regular Summoner is also Tier 2 just built differently with a different chassis for they have a similar amount of versatility.

This is potentially a valid argument, though one I don't agree with (for reasons mentioned). There are fewer "potential builds" for Summoner due to not really being able to be built for save or suck or blasting very well.


Same logic with an Unchained Summoner vs a Summoner even if UC Summoner is a little weaker in the power ceiling of the class, the raw chassis is still strong enough to be Tier 2.

This, however, is not. The raw chassis of the UnSummoner is LUDICROUSLY nerfed from the base class. It loses most of its early access to spells (having one of the weakest and most focused 6-casting lists available) and its Eidolon has to be built from a number of preset paths with very little deviation.

It's not anywhere in the same ballpark as the regular Summoner.


on action economy alone it is not a tier 3.

Having a pet does not a T2 make, otherwise Cavalier/Samurai, Ranger, and Hunter would be T2 classes.

[pabelfly]

VOTE UPDATE

Summoner (Chained)
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Thunder999, Ramza00, vasilidor – 2
Rynjin – 2.3

Average – 2.05

Summoner (Chained) (Master Summoner)
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Thunder999, Rynjin, Ramza00, vasilidor – 2

Average – 2

Summoner (Unchained)
Ramza00 – 2.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Thunder999, Rynjin, vasilidor – 3

Average – 2.92

[Ramza00]

This, however, is not. The raw chassis of the UnSummoner is LUDICROUSLY nerfed from the base class. It loses most of its early access to spells (having one of the weakest and most focused 6-casting lists available) and its Eidolon has to be built from a number of preset paths with very little deviation.

It's not anywhere in the same ballpark as the regular Summoner.



Having a pet does not a T2 make, otherwise Cavalier/Samurai, Ranger, and Hunter would be T2 classes.

Pet which can use wands, plus the action economy of summons is not the same as a just having a pet. Yes you can have only one out at a time, but you get to choose when that occurs.

While still being a sorcerer lite with spells known for versatility.

Remember comparing a wizard, sorcerer, and summoner for the highest spell level (aka the power level)

Odd Levels (3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17)

A Wizard gets 1 spell known, plus bonus spells, plus specialist spell slots.
A Sorcerer gets nothing, compared to a wizard. They do get a bloodline spell but that is 1 spell level behind a wizard
A Summoner gets the next level of their Summon Monster Spell Like Ability.


Even Levels aka the +1 (4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18)

A Wizard gets 2 spell known, plus bonus spells, plus specialist spell slots.
A Sorcerer gets 1 spell known, compared to a wizard.
A Summoner gets nothing new, but it is the same Summon Monster level as a Wizard or Sorcerer.


Meanwhile while the Summoner (even the Unchained Summoner) has a less varied spell list than the Sorcerer king, it has enough spell selection to easily figure out what you want for a spell known slot and similar raw power to provide versatility. And the total spells known per level slots are similar to a Sorcerer.

=====

Perhaps this is not true after level 12 or So (more so level 14, 16, and 18) but we do not really break down the tier lists like this.

I will still argue even the nerf Unchained Summoner is tier 2.5

[vasilidor]

Summoner Tier 2 yes.
Chained summoner tier 3? also yes.

[Gnaeus]

A Summoner which is 8th level has 5/4/3 spells known, an eidolon, and cha plus 3 times a day a Summon Monster level 4.

A Sorcerer which is 8th level has 5/3/2/1 spells known, 3 bloodline spells, and 2/2/1 extra spells known via a Favored Class Benefit.

If a Sorcerer is a Tier 2, than a regular Summoner is also Tier 2 just built differently with a different chassis for they have a similar amount of versatility.

Same logic with an Unchained Summoner vs a Summoner even if UC Summoner is a little weaker in the power ceiling of the class, the raw chassis is still strong enough to be Tier 2. Perhaps you can say 2.5 if one must assign decimals, but on action economy alone it is not a tier 3.

These things are not the same. I absolutely, strongly advocate summoning for sorcerers. Its a widely versatile spell for movement, casting, control, damage, etc. but...

A 10th level chained summoner has lesser planar binding.
An 11th level sorcerer has lesser planar binding
A 13th level sorcerer has planar binding
A 13th level chained summoner has planar binding
A 13th level unchained summoner has lesser planar binding
A 16th level unchained summoner has planar binding
A 16th level chained summoner has greater planar binding
A 17th level sorcerer has greater planar binding
An 18th level sorcerer has Gate

Chained summoner has parity. Unchained summoner isn't close to a sorcerer even in its area of greatest strength.

[Rynjin]

These things are not the same. I absolutely, strongly advocate summoning for sorcerers. Its a widely versatile spell for movement, casting, control, damage, etc. but...

A 10th level chained summoner has lesser planar binding.
An 11th level sorcerer has lesser planar binding
A 13th level sorcerer has planar binding
A 13th level chained summoner has planar binding
A 13th level unchained summoner has lesser planar binding
A 16th level unchained summoner has planar binding
A 16th level chained summoner has greater planar binding
A 17th level sorcerer has greater planar binding
An 18th level sorcerer has Gate

Chained summoner has parity. Unchained summoner isn't close to a sorcerer even in its area of greatest strength.

Otherwise accurate, but don't forget that both Summoners get Gate at 19th level as well.

[Eldonauran]

Hmm, might I bring up another archetype that is fairly potent for the Summoner? Spirit Summoner (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Summoner%20Spirit% 20Summoner).
Getting access to Shaman Spirits and their spells, and their HEXES, seriously widens up the versatility of this class.

I'd play a Life/Restoration (https://aonprd.com/ShamanSpiritDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Life) Spirit Summoner with the Agathion subtype of eidolon, with the ability to channel energy, heal ability damage, breath of life someone, and have an Eidolon that can lay on hands themselves while they pounce/rip face from the enemies.... LONG before I want anything to do with a Sorcerer of equivalent power.

[exelsisxax]

Hmm, might I bring up another archetype that is fairly potent for the Summoner? Spirit Summoner (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Summoner%20Spirit% 20Summoner).
Getting access to Shaman Spirits and their spells, and their HEXES, seriously widens up the versatility of this class.

I'd play a Life/Restoration (https://aonprd.com/ShamanSpiritDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Life) Spirit Summoner with the Agathion subtype of eidolon, with the ability to channel energy, heal ability damage, breath of life someone, and have an Eidolon that can lay on hands themselves while they pounce/rip face from the enemies.... LONG before I want anything to do with a Sorcerer of equivalent power.

I don't see why you suggest this warrants any improvement in tier. Spirits/hexes are good for shaman because wandering spirit/wandering hex allow them to be changed/added on a daily basis. They can therefore do nonsense like change out item crafting feats and some spells known - spirit summoner gets none of this, but loses the genuinely versatile summon monster entirely. Summon monster is worth more than any fixed spell with how flexible it can be, on top of summoner getting it as a separate resource not dependent on slots and with a duration bonus.

Chained: T2
Summoner is a bad 9th level list stuffed into a bard progression in the most beneficial way possible. By its very existence it even changes consumable magic item costs with how many discounted spell it has, including making some feasible for the first time. Notables like potions of DDoor, greater invis, and stoneskin and wands of such spells as baleful poly, mass ability bonus(two levels discount!), teleport, and wall of stone. Oh, and also a boatload of free SMX every day at fullcaster progression. with a faster casting speed. also ten times the duration. When that runs out you can pull out your combat pet that easily outclasses every low-level martial while being entirely expendable. Summoner is a mistake and it's T2.

Unchained: T3
They shrank the list and made it a real 6/9 caster rather than fullcasting in 6th levels, that alone puts it pretty much back to T3 now that the sub-wizard list is not also the most heavily discounted to ever exist. Deep cuts to make the eidolon not trivially outclass every martial also very welcome. Usumm does a great job summoning and a passable secondary caster but can't solo entire encounters most of the adventuring day so it goes in the pile of good classes like magus and occultist.

[pabelfly]

Class summaries. Comments and critiques always appreciated, and I wouldn't mind suggestions for next week's tiering topic.



Summoner (Chained) (2.05)

Chained Summoner are the only class in 3.5 and Pathfinder history to receive a major nerf in the form of Summoner Unchained, and it's banned in Pathfinder Society games. It's quite the controversial class, and it's not hard to see why.

Their companion creature, the Eidolon, has the strength of a regular martial character, and has the ability to use items like wands which the animal companions of other classes cannot. The Summoner spell list is pretty expansive - they can buff, debuff, control the battlefield, have good mobility spells, and summon minions en masse (greatly slowing the game down for everyone else). About the only major spell type they didn't get was evocation blasting options.

Although Chained Summoners are limited to 6th-level spells, somewhat impacting spell DCs, it isn’t much of a handicap considering they get many spells earlier than Wizard and Sorcerer, and can be considered in some ways to be the equivalent of a ninth-level caster. Lower spell levels also make options like wands and metamagic easier and cheaper to use than equivalent Sorcerer and Wizard builds. Overall, it's a pretty OP trade to make. All up, it was hard to debate that Summoner wasn't a Tier 2 class.



Summoner (Unchained) (2.95)

The Unchained Summoner is nerfed in multiple ways over the original Chained Summoner, but the nerfs make it more reasonable to play at many tables. The eidolon is weaker and no longer upstages martial characters. It has a smaller and more focused spell list that’s much less prone to the abuse that Chained Summoner can do, and Summon Monster is still a great spell. Overall, a definitive Tier 3 class.

[Kurald Galain]

I wouldn't mind suggestions for next week's tiering topic.
It strikes me that these threads get more discussion when they cover more classes than just two. I'd go with either the New Full Casters thread (oracle/shaman/arcanist/witch), or the Pathfinder Gish thread (magus/warpriest/inquis/occultist).


The summoner is quite a powerful class, within the scope of minion summoning and group buffing.
They also excel at battlefield control (they get almost all of the good zone/wall spells), mobility (the full range of teleportation and plane shift spells), and debuffing (e.g. glitterdust, slow, hold monster). Their spell list covers pretty much everything; about the only thing it doesn't have is evocation blasting.

You should mention in your summary just how controversial this class is. It's at the top of most banlists, gets you branded as "munchkin" almost automatically, and is the single class in the history of 3E/PF that was rewritten to make it less overpowering. Words fail to describe how much the summoner pisses people off.

[pabelfly]

It strikes me that these threads get more discussion when they cover more classes than just two. I'd go with either the New Full Casters thread (oracle/shaman/arcanist/witch), or the Pathfinder Gish thread (magus/warpriest/inquis/occultist).


They also excel at battlefield control (they get almost all of the good zone/wall spells), mobility (the full range of teleportation and plane shift spells), and debuffing (e.g. glitterdust, slow, hold monster). Their spell list covers pretty much everything; about the only thing it doesn't have is evocation blasting.

You should mention in your summary just how controversial this class is. It's at the top of most banlists, gets you branded as "munchkin" almost automatically, and is the single class in the history of 3E/PF that was rewritten to make it less overpowering. Words fail to describe how much the summoner pisses people off.

I think a Gish thread will be fun next week. Will be good to get a start on those type of classes.

Summary has been edited, let me know what you think.

[Thunder999]

You accidentally referred to the chained summoner as unchained.


Although Unchained Summoners are limited to 6th-level spells,

I'd definitely like to see the Gishes, pathfinder really did a great job with them.

[Rynjin]

For clarity, Summoners are not banned in Pathfinder Society, just a couple of their archetypes.

[pabelfly]

For clarity, Summoners are not banned in Pathfinder Society, just a couple of their archetypes.

Okay, fixed that. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Maat Mons]

Arguably, Unchained Barbarian is a minor nerf of Barbarian. So maybe say Summoner is the only class to get a major nerf.

[pabelfly]

Arguably, Unchained Barbarian is a minor nerf of Barbarian. So maybe say Summoner is the only class to get a major nerf.

Fixed this too, thanks for the suggestion.

[Thunder999]

Unchained barbarian wasn't really meant to be a nerf, they were just trying to make rage simpler, that just resulted in a somewhat weaker class, but it's no more intentional than any of the other weaker classes, unchained summoner was a deliberate weakening of the class.

[Kurald Galain]

For clarity, Summoners are not banned in Pathfinder Society, just a couple of their archetypes.
Let me quote the rules (https://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/additional) on that, boldface by Paizo: As of 4/27/15 the summoner class in this book is no longer legal for play ... only the summoner in Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Unchained is legal for play. So yeah, banned as of 7.5 years ago.


Unchained barbarian wasn't really meant to be a nerf, they were just trying to make rage simpler, that just resulted in a somewhat weaker class, but it's no more intentional than any of the other weaker classes, unchained summoner was a deliberate weakening of the class.
Correct. Unchained barb is not intended as a nerf and largely isn't one (it ends up 0.06 worse on our scale, that's a tiny margin). Unchained summoner is a deliberate nerf and is universally perceived as a big one, so it's still unique in that aspect.

[Maat Mons]

As for the suggestions of Arcanist/Oracle/Shaman/With or Inquisitor/Magus/Occultist/Warpriest, I’d say we’re either doing Occult classes separately, in which case Occultist shouldn’t be covered with the gishes, or we’re not doing Occult classes separately, in which case Psychic should be covered with the new full casters.

Of the classes not yet covered, the full casters are Arcanist, Oracle, Psychic, Shaman, and Witch, the 2/3rds casters are Alchemist, Hunter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Mesmerist, Occultist, Omdura, Spiritualist, and Warpriest, the 4/9ths caster is Vampire Hunter, the non-casters are Gunslinger, Kineticist, Shifter, Slayer, and Swashbuckler, and Medium and Vigilante each have variable amounts of casting. Medium varies from 4/9ths to 2/3rds, depending on the day. And Vigilante varies between non-caster and 2/3rds caster, depending on the archetype.

One way to divide up the remaining classes would be as follows.
Full Casters: Arcanist/Oracle/Psychic/Shaman/Witch
2/3rds Casters Part 1, Arcane and Divine: Hunter/Inquisitor/Magus/Omdura/Warpriest
2/3rds Casters Part 2, Everyone Else: Alchemist/Investigator/Mesmerist/Occultist/Spiritualist
Non-Casters: Gunslinger/Kineticist/Shifter/Slayer/Swashbuckler
Leftovers: Medium/Vampire Hunter/Vigilante

Or here’s another way.
Normies: Gunslinger/Slayer/Swashbluckler/Vigilante
Weirdos: Kineticist/Medium/Shifter/Vampire Hunter
Psychics: Mesmerist/Occultist/Psychic/Spiritualist
Full Casters: Arcanist/Oracle/Shaman/Witch
Divine Partials: Hunter/Inquisitor/Omdura/Warpriest
Acane-ish Partials: Alchemist/Investigator/Magus

[Thunder999]

The Magus/Warpriest/Inquisitor/Occultist thread is already up.

No point bunching Occult classes together anyway, they really don't have much important in common.

[Rynjin]

Let me quote the rules (https://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/additional) on that, boldface by Paizo: As of 4/27/15 the summoner class in this book is no longer legal for play ... only the summoner in Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Unchained is legal for play. So yeah, banned as of 7.5 years ago.

Ahh, I forgot to consider they might have done that after UnSummoner released.

[pabelfly]

As for the suggestions of Arcanist/Oracle/Shaman/With or Inquisitor/Magus/Occultist/Warpriest, I’d say we’re either doing Occult classes separately, in which case Occultist shouldn’t be covered with the gishes, or we’re not doing Occult classes separately, in which case Psychic should be covered with the new full casters.

Of the classes not yet covered, the full casters are Arcanist, Oracle, Psychic, Shaman, and Witch, the 2/3rds casters are Alchemist, Hunter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Mesmerist, Occultist, Omdura, Spiritualist, and Warpriest, the 4/9ths caster is Vampire Hunter, the non-casters are Gunslinger, Kineticist, Shifter, Slayer, and Swashbuckler, and Medium and Vigilante each have variable amounts of casting. Medium varies from 4/9ths to 2/3rds, depending on the day. And Vigilante varies between non-caster and 2/3rds caster, depending on the archetype.

One way to divide up the remaining classes would be as follows.
Full Casters: Arcanist/Oracle/Psychic/Shaman/Witch
2/3rds Casters Part 1, Arcane and Divine: Hunter/Inquisitor/Magus/Omdura/Warpriest
2/3rds Casters Part 2, Everyone Else: Alchemist/Investigator/Mesmerist/Occultist/Spiritualist
Non-Casters: Gunslinger/Kineticist/Shifter/Slayer/Swashbuckler
Leftovers: Medium/Vampire Hunter/Vigilante

Or here’s another way.
Normies: Gunslinger/Slayer/Swashbluckler/Vigilante
Weirdos: Kineticist/Medium/Shifter/Vampire Hunter
Psychics: Mesmerist/Occultist/Psychic/Spiritualist
Full Casters: Arcanist/Oracle/Shaman/Witch
Divine Partials: Hunter/Inquisitor/Omdura/Warpriest
Acane-ish Partials: Alchemist/Investigator/Magus

I'll keep a few of these suggestions in mind with future tiering topics, much appreciated.

I rather like the topic idea of Inquisitor/Magus/Occultist/Warpriest as a topic. They're all classes with 3/4 BAB, 6th level spells, and try different ways to combine spellcasting and martial ability, and all got nearly identical ratings on the preliminary tier list. I think the combination of the four will make for an interesting discussion and seems to have done so so far.

[Kurald Galain]

we’re not doing Occult classes separately, in which case Psychic should be covered with the new full casters.
I'd say it makes more sense to group classes by function, than to group them by sourcebook. I did forget about the psychic though.


Medium varies from 4/9ths to 2/3rds, depending on the day. And Vigilante varies between non-caster and 2/3rds caster, depending on the archetype.
These should be grouped together, possibly with the kinny (who is kind-of-sort-of a caster depending on how you build it). It's likely that medium and vigilante get a rating like "tier 3 if 2/3 caster, tier 4 otherwise".

Another good grouping is Shaman/Hunter/Spiritualist, since these are all pet classes. That leaves a "2/3 caster but not really a gish" list with
Alchemist/Investigator/Mesmerist/Omdura, and Non-Casters: Gunslinger/Shifter/Slayer/Swashbuckler/Vampire Hunter. Or we could split off Umdura/Vampire Hunter as they're both from third-party setting material, so they come with a lot of fluff that most players are unfamiliar with.

[Thunder999]

Shaman isn't really a pet class, they get a familiar, not a companion you expect to fight things.
Shaman is closest to the Witch, and it's very close, both have hexes, a familiar, and a mediocre spell list while being full 9th level casters.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'd say Summoner is T2, Unchained version is T3.