How would you optimize an Arcane Swordsage.

[Promethean]

Your DM has lost his marbles and is allowing you to play an arcane sword-sage. What potential optimizations tricks and broken builds can an arcane sword-sage mage create with it's weird position as a spellcasting initiator?

For this exercise:

The Arcane swordsage has no light armor proficiency and a D6 hit die. As per Adaptation.
The swordsage's "Spells" are martial maneuvers in the same way a StP Erudite converts spells to powers. You can't apply metamagic or any other effect that specify "spells" because neither swordsages or erudites actually cast spells, sword sages may only apply effects that target maneuvers or SU/EX abilities to their "Spells". The swordsage's "Caster Level" for their arcane maneuver's is equal to the swordsage's initiator level
As all maneuvers are specified as either SU or EX abilities, "spell"/arcane maneuver DCs would Default to 10 + 1/2 HD + (CHA bonus for SU or CON bonus for EX), for this exercise it'll be 10 + 1/2 initiator level + WIS bonus.
"Spells"/arcane maneuvers retain all their somatic, verbal, material, and XP components when converted to maneuvers.

[Rebel7284]

abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with a range of personal or touch.


Is the school limitation enforced? Is range/personal enforced?

[pabelfly]

So what are the "spells" you use classified as? I'd presume they're treated as spell-like abilities, but I thought I'd check.

[Promethean]

Is the school limitation enforced? Is range/personal enforced?

There was never a school/range limit, when taken in context with the rest of the paragraph those are Suggestions people took too seriously.


So what are the "spells" you use classified as? I'd presume they're treated as spell-like abilities, but I thought I'd check.

As maneuvers that mimic the effects of spells, but are still maneuvers. That's what point #2 is trying to say. The arcane swordsage casts all their spells as maneuvers, which means they're SU abilities with unique use/cost/caster-level mechanics tacked on, but are still treated as SU abilities in all other cases like when dispell, AMF, feats, other spell effects, etc, are considered.

[loky1109]

Now I look at Arcane Swordsage and want Iron Chef round about it! )))

[Eurus]

I wouldn't say range and school limits are "suggestions that people took too seriously" so much as they're "potential ways to make the concept less absurd", but anyway...


Well, your main advantage is that all your spell-maneuvers are infinitely spammable, right? And unlike maneuvers, spells often have actual durations longer than a round, so you can get overlapping effects.

You can do a pseudo Zceryll thing with summon effects if you're willing to spend all your actions on it... maybe have your allies pull you around on some sort of tiny sled...

You can abuse divinations pretty hard. Brute force a scrying spell until the target fails their save, slowly narrow down possibilities with auguries, etc. You can make explosive rune or glyph of warding bombs more easily.

And you can just start every fight with the highest level battlefield control spell you know. You don't even need to be particularly clever about it.

[ciopo]

I don't think arcan swordsage would make for a good iron chef ingredient, it's too strong. Unless I'm missing something, An arcane swordsage is more or less equivalent to a ... sorcerer with "infinite" slots.


As for tricks, supposedly the SU nature means no material/xp cost, so wish and limited wish are a given ti have "all the spells", maybe even those other spells whose names I don't remember that let you useany other lower level spells.

There are some spells that are duration spell you can discharge as a free action to get this or that effect, those seems prime for abuse when you can precast as many of these as you want

[loky1109]

I don't think arcan swordsage would make for a good iron chef ingredient, it's too strong. Unless I'm missing something, An arcane swordsage is more or less equivalent to a ... sorcerer with "infinite" slots.

Yesh, it's strong, but I don't agree all IC ingredients should be of SBoH tier. AS looks enough unusual to push somebody's imagination to find some interesting combo.
Of course, it needs to finish this class firstly.

[Promethean]

As for tricks, supposedly the SU nature means no material/xp cost, so wish and limited wish are a given ti have "all the spells", maybe even those other spells whose names I don't remember that let you useany other lower level spells.

Nope, specific trumps general for the same reasons psionic powers aren't free.

SU abilities generally don't have costs, but AS doesn't have a list of SU abilities, it has a list of blank slots that copy every aspect of a spell. Thus each spell is the "Specific" spell that modifies the SA's general ability to use SUs.

If this weren't true, then all psionic powers would be free. "The ability to manifest" is specified as a psi-like ability that psionic classes modify using powers and power points, so if each power didn't over-write the fact that Psi-Likes generally have no cost, then the material/XP components would have to be ignored to align with RAW.

[Rebel7284]

Wall of Stone + Stone Shape + some ranks in knowledge architecture and engineering can solve a lot of problems

[ben-zayb]

First off, Heroics would be so ridiculously overpowered, as it can grant you access to any arcane spell via Martial Study.

Arcane Swordsage doesn't restrict spell choice to a single spell list, so you should be able to mix and match spells available to wizards, sorcerers, bards, etc.

Consider arcane class ACFs and PrCs that grant arcane access to spells at an earlier level (like Trapsmith), domain spells (like Domain Sorcerer), any specific spell (like Wyrm Wizard), or divine spell lists in general (like Rainbow servant). Can you get Haste as a 1st-level maneuver due to Trapsmith?

You can also get ridiculous early spell level access if bloodline (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) cheese is allowed.

Most of the build are left open for customization.

ECL 3

Build: <Major Bloodline X> 1 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1
Initiator Level: 3 = (Swordsage 1 + <Major Bloodline X> 1) + 0.5*(<Class A> 1 + Bloodline 1)
Maneuver Level: up to 2nd
Feat: Quick Recovery enables you to counteract daze/stun effects for the later Celerity line of spells.
Note: Heroics can grant you Martial Study, which means access to any arcane spell up to 2nd level. You can use this for long-term buffs (duration of an hour or more) or as a precombat buff.
Optional: Spells that are levels earlier like a Trapsmith's lvl1 Haste or divine spells like domain spells from a Wyrm Wizard.



ECL 5

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1
Initiator Level: 6 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*(A 1 + BL 3)
Maneuver Level: up to 3rd
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 3rd level.



ECL 6

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1 / <Class B> 1
Initiator Level: 8 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*[(A 1 + BL 3) + (B 1 + BL 3)]
Maneuver Level: up to 4th
Feat: Adaptive Style becomes available for better action economy and Heroics abuse.
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 4th level.
Note 2: Celerity becomes available for better action economy.



ECL 7

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1 / <Class B> 1 / <Class C> 1
Initiator Level: 10 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*[(A 1 + BL 3) + (B 1 + BL 3) + (C 1 + BL 3)]
Maneuver Level: up to 5th
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 5th level.
Note 2: Arcane Fusion becomes available for better action economy.



ECL 8

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1 / <Class B> 1 / <Class C> 1 / <Class D> 1
Initiator Level: 12 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*[(A 1 + BL 3) + (B 1 + BL 3) + (C 1 + BL 3) + (D 1 + BL 3)]
Maneuver Level: up to 6th
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 6th level.



ECL 9

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1 / <Class B> 1 / <Class C> 1 / <Class D> 1 / <Class E> 1
Initiator Level: 14 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*[(A 1 + BL 3) + (B 1 + BL 3) + (C 1 + BL 3) + (D 1 + BL 3 + (E 1 + BL 3)]
Maneuver Level: up to 7th
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 7th level.
Note 2: Body Outside Body becomes available for better action economy. You don't cast spells, you initiate maneuvers.



ECL 10

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1 / <Class B> 1 / <Class C> 1 / <Class D> 1 / <Class E> 1 / <Class F> 1
Initiator Level: 16 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*[(A 1 + BL 3) + (B 1 + BL 3) + (C 1 + BL 3) + (D 1 + BL 3 + (E 1 + BL 3) + (F 1 + BL 3)]
Maneuver Level: up to 8th
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 8th level.
Note 2: DCFS is now online by initiating Heroics thrice. Twice for Martial Study of the DCFS spells, and once for the feat that you'll consume with the shuffle.
Note 3: Arcane Fusion, Greater becomes available for better action economy.
Note 3: Celerity, Greater becomes available for better action economy.



ECL 11

Build: <Bloodline X> 3 / <Class A> 1 / Swordsage 1 / <Class B> 1 / <Class C> 1 / <Class D> 1 / <Class E> 1 / <Class F> 1 / Swordsage +1
Initiator Level: 17 = (SS 1 + BL 3) + 0.5*[(A 1 + BL 3) + (B 1 + BL 3) + (C 1 + BL 3) + (D 1 + BL 3 + (E 1 + BL 3) + (F 1 + BL 3)]
Maneuver Level: up to 9th
Note: Heroics now grants access to arcane spells up to 9th level.
Note 2: Time Stop becomes available and completely breaks action economy.



Round X
Standard Action: initiate Time Stop #1

Round 1 (apparent time from Time Stop #1)
Move Action: do anything
Standard Action: initiate Heroics to learn Martial Study (Celerity, Greater)
Swift Action: initiate Celerity, Greater to recover maneuvers as a full-round action

Round 2 (apparent time from Time Stop #1)
Move Action: heal daze
Standard Action: initiate Time Stop #2

Round 1 (apparent time from Time Stop #2)
Move Action: do anything
Standard Action: do anything
Swift Action: initiate Celerity, Greater to recover maneuvers as a full-round action

Round 2 (apparent time from Time Stop #2)
Move Action: heal daze
Standard Action: initiate Time Stop #3

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
This perpetual time stop trick only requires 2 rounds, which is to take into account the minimum period of apparent time you'll get (1d4+1).


ECL 12+
From this point on, the build can be customized based on preference, but here are some suggestions:

Consider getting more Swordsage levels to permanently learn Celerity, Greater to free up a Martial Study slot (you can only have 3 instances of Martial Study).
Consider getting into Warblade and/or Crusader even as dips, since your IL is at least 17 by now.

Temporary Martial Study and Martial Stance feats from Heroics lets you bypass maneuvers known requirements
DCFS permanently gives you Martial Stance feats for any stance you may want
If at least four of your class dips were arcane casters, consider dipping Spellthief and grabbing Master Spellthief to enable 9th-level Steal Spell.
Really, anything in this handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?317990-Bloodlines-for-Fun-and-Profit) to abuse Bloodline levels.

[PraxisVetli]

Would Battle Blessing (Com Champ) be advantageous, since Silver Pyromancer (Five Nations) makes Paladin spells Arcane?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I don't think arcan swordsage would make for a good iron chef ingredient, it's too strong. Unless I'm missing something, An arcane swordsage is more or less equivalent to a ... sorcerer with "infinite" slots.
There are some spells that are duration spell you can discharge as a free action to get this or that effect, those seems prime for abuse when you can precast as many of these as you want
Sorcerers have many more spells known, especially of higher levels. ASwordsage knows only two "maneuvers" per level (and only one readied each day). It's more akin to a Warlock, with much more powerful invocations, but not able to spam them quite as easily, since you need a full-round action to recover them. Still probably high tier 2 if you waive the school/personal restrictions, but not quite as broken as wizards, druids and archivists.


First off, Heroics would be so ridiculously overpowered, as it can grant you access to any arcane spell via Martial Study.
No. ASwordsage learns spells "instead of maneuvers". It doesn't transform the spell into a maneuver except when it is cast. Notably, it means that ASwordsage can't make battle scrolls of spells, and that spells don't belong to a single discipline, hence Martial Study can't grant them.


Arcane Swordsage doesn't restrict spell choice to a single spell list, so you should be able to mix and match spells available to wizards, sorcerers, bards, etc.
That's the real power right here. Body Outside Body as a maneuver can get out of hand extremely quick.


Consider arcane class ACFs and PrCs that grant arcane access to spells at an earlier level (like Trapsmith), domain spells (like Domain Sorcerer), any specific spell (like Wyrm Wizard), or divine spell lists in general (like Rainbow servant). Can you get Haste as a 1st-level maneuver due to Trapsmith?
Theoretically, yes. Then again, that's a common cheese and there's a lot to do even without that.


You can also get ridiculous early spell level access if bloodline (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) cheese is allowed.
Surprise surprise, combining one of the most broken oversight of the game with a very open-ended class like ASwordsage makes the whole thing broken.



The thing I like most with the ASwordsage is the ability to just dip into it to get access to a high level spell. That's very unique, and allows for qualifying for PrC and feats requiring a specific spell, like Moster of the Unseen Hand, or Master of Many Forms.

[ciopo]

Consider arcane class ACFs and PrCs that grant arcane access to spells at an earlier level (like Trapsmith), domain spells (like Domain Sorcerer), any specific spell (like Wyrm Wizard), or divine spell lists in general (like Rainbow servant). Can you get Haste as a 1st-level maneuver due to Trapsmith?
Uh? Arcane swordsage uses spells as manouvers, it would not be advanced by PrC that advance spellcasting any more than StP erudite is advanced by them, you need PrC that advances manouvers for arcane swordsage to get new manouvers just the same as a nonarcnae swordsage


Would Battle Blessing (Com Champ) be advantageous, since Silver Pyromancer (Five Nations) makes Paladin spells Arcane?
Only if you allow cleric to take battle blessing because cure light wounds is a paladin spell


Sorcerers have many more spells known, especially of higher levels. ASwordsage knows only two "maneuvers" per level (and only one readied each day).
Fair, tho the readied can be changed around rather more trivially than the 8 hours of rest that spellcasting requires, no? wasn't it something like 5 minutes of Calisthenics? and one feat makes it a full round action, so out of a pool of 6 to 25 manouversspell known, at any point you have 4 to 12 of them readied, and it's one full round action to ready up 4 to 12 different ones, with the expended/unexpended needing to be adjudicated because whoever wrote adaptive style didn't think about what would happen if a sowrdsage used it during an encounter instead of between encounters.

[Promethean]

Uh? Arcane swordsage uses spells as manouvers, it would not be advanced by PrC that advance spellcasting any more than StP erudite is advanced by them, you need PrC that advances manouvers for arcane swordsage to get new manouvers just the same as a nonarcnae swordsage

StP erudite with magic mantle says hello. :smallbiggrin:


Unfortunately there's no magic mantle equivalent for Maneuvers or text that says "This still gets advanced by arcane Prcs" like warlock does, so you're still 100% right.



Fair, tho the readied can be changed around rather more trivially than the 8 hours of rest that spellcasting requires, no? wasn't it something like 5 minutes of Calisthenics? and one feat makes it a full round action, so out of a pool of 6 to 25 manouversspell known, at any point you have 4 to 12 of them readied, and it's one full round action to ready up 4 to 12 different ones, with the expended/unexpended needing to be adjudicated because whoever wrote adaptive style didn't think about what would happen if a sowrdsage used it during an encounter instead of between encounters.

It's actually kind of weird. Now that I look at it, Arcane swordsage doesn't actually seem that much more broken in combat compared to a sorcerer(out of combat AS is still OP thanks to at-will maneuvers).

They both have access to the same spells-known cheese, With a sorcerer having more known in general while AS can get some more obscure spells from other lists. As can spam their highest level spells, but sorcerer can to the same with spell-slot tricks. Sorcerer has access to an array of metamagic BS that AS Can't(Cough Locate City Nuke cough Irresistible Spell cough Guided Spell cough Miser With Magic cough cough etc..). AS also lose access to the more BS arcane caster Prcs.


Arcane swordsage loses most of the avenues spellcasters have to unlimited power in return for more consistent power output.

[Rebel7284]

It's actually kind of weird. Now that I look at it, Arcane swordsage doesn't actually seem that much more broken in combat compared to a sorcerer(out of combat AS is still OP thanks to at-will maneuvers).


Well that depends on how much you spend out of combat preparing for combat since you can pre-cast long duration spells. Summons Monster has been mentioned for starting every combat with a dozen allies and heroics allows you to start with 50 fighter feats if you want (10 min/level is long)

Going to take some time to look for other spells that are nifty and edit this post.

edit:
Summon Marked Homunculus - known for being kinda silly, now you can have an army of them as early as level 1.

[daremetoidareyo]

Scribe martial script. Give your spells to your buddies

[Promethean]

Well that depends on how much you spend out of combat preparing for combat since you can pre-cast long duration spells. Summons Monster has been mentioned for starting every combat with a dozen allies and heroics allows you to start with 50 fighter feats if you want (10 min/level is long)

Going to take some time to look for other spells that are nifty and edit this post.

edit:
Summon Marked Homunculus - known for being kinda silly, now you can have an army of them as early as level 1.

Thing is, a sorcerer can do that as well via Prcs and metamagic like incantatrix + persist spell and extend spell to bring literal Armies into an encounter with a day of prep(or less if you have Miser with magic or other sources of free spell slots). I'd say Out of combat prep for combat is even between them.

Though I have to ask, how are you getting 50 fighter feats? Heroics doesn't stack with itself.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Scribe martial script. Give your spells to your buddies

" to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level. [...] the spells are "cast" as martial maneuvers"

I'm pretty sure they're still spells, just cast as maneuvers, so they can't be put in martial scripts. You do know them, but you don't have spell slots to expend during crafting, so either way, you can't scribe scroll.

[Rebel7284]

Thing is, a sorcerer can do that as well via Prcs and metamagic like incantatrix + persist spell and extend spell to bring literal Armies into an encounter with a day of prep(or less if you have Miser with magic or other sources of free spell slots). I'd say Out of combat prep for combat is even between them.

Though I have to ask, how are you getting 50 fighter feats? Heroics doesn't stack with itself.

Persistent Spell has limitations, for example, the most common interpretation is that it doesn't work on touch spells.

While any mid-level caster can create an army with judicious use of calling effects or possibly Animate Dead, those have costs in gold and/or XP and depending on your level, you may only be able to use them one or two times per day. Arcane Swordsage can do it for free AND keep adding to the army in combat with summoning effects, the ability to do it from level 1, and of course eventually getting the unique ability to Dominate Person at will which can be very useful for creating an army out of your opponent's army.

Whether or not heroics stacks is unclear just like it's unclear whether protection from energy [fire] and protection from energy [acid] can both be active.
Most folks point to this line in the rules.


Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.


This makes sense for the example given, but since the previous spells are there, what happens when the effects would not become irrelevant?

Looking on the internet, there is no consensus.

With that said, since this is contentious, running this use of Heroics past the DM to confirm it works in their game would make sense.

[Promethean]

Persistent Spell has limitations, for example, the most common interpretation is that it doesn't work on touch spells.

While any mid-level caster can create an army with judicious use of calling effects or possibly Animate Dead, those have costs in gold and/or XP and depending on your level, you may only be able to use them one or two times per day. Arcane Swordsage can do it for free AND keep adding to the army in combat with summoning effects, the ability to do it from level 1, and of course eventually getting the unique ability to Dominate Person at will which can be very useful for creating an army out of your opponent's army.

Arcane Swordsages don't cast anything for free. As I pointed out above, they pay material/XP component costs for the same reason psionics have to.



Whether or not heroics stacks is unclear just like it's unclear whether protection from energy [fire] and protection from energy [acid] can both be active.
Most folks point to this line in the rules.

This makes sense for the example given, but since the previous spells are there, what happens when the effects would not become irrelevant?

Looking on the internet, there is no consensus.

With that said, since this is contentious, running this use of Heroics past the DM to confirm it works in their game would make sense.


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

The SRD makes it clear effects from the same spell don't stack unless specified otherwise. The previous spell doesn't end, but it also doesn't do anything while the new iteration is in effect.

It's not a matter of "what if the spell does not become irrelevant", It's Forced to become irrelevant.

[Rebel7284]

Arcane Swordsages don't cast anything for free. As I pointed out above, they pay material/XP component costs for the same reason psionics have to.

I understand that, what I meant is that summon monster does not have a gold or XP cost and calling effects typically do.



The SRD makes it clear effects from the same spell don't stack unless specified otherwise. The previous spell doesn't end, but it also doesn't do anything while the new iteration is in effect.

It's not a matter of "what if the spell does not become irrelevant", It's Forced to become irrelevant.

I looked at the SRD wording too


Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.


In my opinion it doesn't make anything more clear, but your way of reading is totally valid and is probably the majority opinion!

[Promethean]

I understand that, what I meant is that summon monster does not have a gold or XP cost and calling effects typically do.

Ooooh, alright point to gryffindor




I looked at the SRD wording too

In my opinion it doesn't make anything more clear, but your way of reading is totally valid and is probably the majority opinion!

Fair enough.